Pavel Datsyuk

[lazerbullet]

Frankly, I would take 97 points and a Selke in a defensive system over 110 points in a run-and-gun system with a massive amount of extra PP time.

Ovechkin's second Hart is massively overrated. I would easily take Datsyuk and probably even Parise over him that year.

In general, players like Datsyuk and Modano will be underrated by many people. Guys provide elite offense and defense. But players like Bure and Ovechkin are seen always as the better ones. I would love to see how many points Ovie would score under Babcock with his PP time cut in half and with some actual defensive duties.

Crosby... in 2011 he is easily a better player than Datsyuk. Couple of years ago, when Crosby was bad in his own zone it was very arguable.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Preview/look ahead.
A top-16 scorer is not just "good" - that's a player who would lead all but about 10 teams in scoring (many teams often had a couple in the top-16) - add in that he was playing a defensive style in a very tight system and it becomes even more impressive.

Datsyuk's peak may be better, but it is not "considerably" better and Modano's longevity (not just as a player, but as an elite player), is considerable better at this point.

I was definitely talking about offensive peak. I think defensively there isn't much between them, Datsyuk is a wizard with the stick, Modano was almost certainly more challenging physically. But offensively, Modano's 93 points in 1992-94 look quite a bit worse than Datsyuk's 97 in 07-09. Modano didn't make top 10 scoring in those years, Datsyuk was 4th both seasons, ahead of guys like Thornton, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Lecavalier and Getzlaf. Just so we're sure that this is elite-level scoring. Modano never cracked that level offensively.

On the defensive side it's revisionist history to act like Modano is the second coming of Bob Gainey or Dave Keon as well. Modano is an all-round player for sure but it's interesting that his teammate Jere Lehtinen got those Selke Trophies right around Modano's peak years. People didn't even think Modano was the best defensive forward on his own team.

I'm not saying this to disrespect Modano who's had an excellent career for sure, all in all a better one than Datsyuk, but Datsyuk at his best is a notch or two above Modano at his best. If you had to pick between either one at his best to be on your team, you'd pick Datsyuk if you're being objective.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'll add that career value usually includes durability, which modano certainly had much more of than datsyuk.

peak vs. peak, datsyuk has the regular season peak as almost everyone agrees. but datsyuk hasn't put together a playoff run like modano's two straight runs to the finals, which most also agree on. (i saw datsyuk's '08 run and i saw modano's runs and my eyes tell me that modano was the better player. he was the prototypical center of the DPE, not as good as forsberg, lindros, sakic, and others, but he was the template for the big, skilled two-way center that every GM was building their teams around. the thinking at the time was that if you got a guy like modano, you could surround him with complementary pieces and contend, which was why you saw GMs in the late 90s/early 2000s trying to build teams around sundin and yashin, even primeau and gratton, thinking that all you needed was a goalie and the right supporting cast of role players behind him.)

and take this for what it's worth-- you can chalk this up to datsyuk being a late-bloomer or being on a stacked team with six hall of fame forwards and nine hall of famers in total-- but modano's run to the finals as a 20 year old was a lot more impressive than datsyuk's 10 minutes a game in his rookie season.

 

[Briere Up There*]

...

Pavel Datsyuk has apparently become the new Peter Forsberg at HF. He's never been all that impressive in the playoffs, so I don't get this relatively new found worship of him. He's had a good stretch of games... So what? Every great player does at some point.

 

[seventieslord]

On the defensive side it's revisionist history to act like Modano is the second coming of Bob Gainey or Dave Keon as well. Modano is an all-round player for sure but it's interesting that his teammate Jere Lehtinen got those Selke Trophies right around Modano's peak years. People didn't even think Modano was the best defensive forward on his own team. .

Of course. Lehtinen was exceptional defensively. Probably the best in the league. But Modano was very good too. It's not impossible that two of the top-5 guys were on the same team for a few years.

 

[finchster]

Datsyuk' playoff resume leaves a lot to be desired, I would take Modano over Datsyuk.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Of course. Lehtinen was exceptional defensively. Probably the best in the league. But Modano was very good too. It's not impossible that two of the top-5 guys were on the same team for a few years.

Modano reminds me of Hossa a lot - big, surprisingly fast skaters who tended to be a bit underrated in their time defensively, whom I would solidly put into the 2nd Tier of two-way forwards.

 

[DanZ]

...

Pavel Datsyuk has apparently become the new Peter Forsberg at HF. He's never been all that impressive in the playoffs, so I don't get this relatively new found worship of him. He's had a good stretch of games... So what? Every great player does at some point.

Are you serious? You're acting like Datsyuk hasn't been playing at this level for years, aside from parts of last year.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

...

Pavel Datsyuk has apparently become the new Peter Forsberg at HF. He's never been all that impressive in the playoffs, so I don't get this relatively new found worship of him. He's had a good stretch of games... So what? Every great player does at some point.

The whole Datsyuk playoff talk all stems back from people questioning his ability coming out of the lockout. How is this still an issue? Since 2007 when he truly emerged as an elite player, his postseason resume has been just fine:

In 2007 he led Detroit to the Conference Finals, only to lose to the eventual Cup Champions Anaheim. He was Detroit's best forward that postseason. Yes, better than the highly touted playoff warriors Zetterberg and Franzen.

In 2008 he helped lead Detroit to a Stanley Cup with a fantastic 23 point, 2-way postseason, that was only overshadowed by Zetterberg's 27 point Conn Smythe run.

In 2009 his offensive game was hampered due to both injury and a coaches decision to put Hossa with Datsyuk rather than Zetterberg. Far from uneffective, i believe it was Canada's own Bob McKenzie that made a comment along the lines of 'Datsyuk's currently on the most dominating goal-less streak that i've ever witnessed in the postseason."

And in 2010 he was once again very good, collecting 13 points in 12 games, and was IMO Detroit's best forward. Of note his 2-goal performance in Game 7 on the road in Phoenix to lift Detroit to the next round. His offensive numbers actually increased from the regular season to playoffs that year.

So in 3 of the last 4 playoff runs, his offensive numbers have been there along with his usual defensive play that has led to him being the 3-time reigning Selke winner. And in the one postseason where his numbers dipped, he was still one of Detroit's best forwards.

Yet we're still going to attempt to knock him for a reputation that began before he evolved into the player that we're truly talking about? 2007-current Pavel Datsyuk is the player that is getting recognition to even get a thread in this forum, not 2001-2006 Datsyuk.

 

[DanZ]

The whole Datsyuk playoff talk all stems back from people questioning his ability coming out of the lockout. How is this still an issue? Since 2007 when he truly emerged as an elite player, his postseason resume has been just fine:

In 2007 he led Detroit to the Conference Finals, only to lose to the eventual Cup Champions Anaheim. He was Detroit's best forward that postseason. Yes, better than the highly touted playoff warriors Zetterberg and Franzen.

In 2008 he helped lead Detroit to a Stanley Cup with a fantastic 23 point, 2-way postseason, that was only overshadowed by Zetterberg's 27 point Conn Smythe run.

In 2009 his offensive game was hampered due to both injury and a coaches decision to put Hossa with Datsyuk rather than Zetterberg. Far from uneffective, i believe it was Canada's own Bob McKenzie that made a comment along the lines of 'Datsyuk's currently on the most dominating goal-less streak that i've ever witnessed in the postseason."

And in 2010 he was once again very good, collecting 13 points in 12 games, and was IMO Detroit's best forward. Of note his 2-goal performance in Game 7 on the road in Phoenix to lift Detroit to the next round. His offensive numbers actually increased from the regular season to playoffs that year.

So in 3 of the last 4 playoff runs, his offensive numbers have been there along with his usual defensive play that has led to him being the 3-time reigning Selke winner. And in the one postseason where his numbers dipped, he was still one of Detroit's best forwards.

Good post. Datsyuk is actually a very good playoff performer. I believe if Datsyuk was healthy in the 2009 SCF, the Wings win the Cup. It's no coincidence that since Datsyuk has come back from injury after missing 19 games that the Wings are 6-1. Datsyuk makes Detroit's engine run smoothly.

 

[Briere Up There*]

The whole Datsyuk playoff talk all stems back from people questioning his ability coming out of the lockout. How is this still an issue? Since 2007 when he truly emerged as an elite player, his postseason resume has been just fine:

In 2007 he led Detroit to the Conference Finals, only to lose to the eventual Cup Champions Anaheim. He was Detroit's best forward that postseason. Yes, better than the highly touted playoff warriors Zetterberg and Franzen.

In 2008 he helped lead Detroit to a Stanley Cup with a fantastic 23 point, 2-way postseason, that was only overshadowed by Zetterberg's 27 point Conn Smythe run.

In 2009 his offensive game was hampered due to both injury and a coaches decision to put Hossa with Datsyuk rather than Zetterberg. Far from uneffective, i believe it was Canada's own Bob McKenzie that made a comment along the lines of 'Datsyuk's currently on the most dominating goal-less streak that i've ever witnessed in the postseason."

And in 2010 he was once again very good, collecting 13 points in 12 games, and was IMO Detroit's best forward. Of note his 2-goal performance in Game 7 on the road in Phoenix to lift Detroit to the next round. His offensive numbers actually increased from the regular season to playoffs that year.

So in 3 of the last 4 playoff runs, his offensive numbers have been there along with his usual defensive play that has led to him being the 3-time reigning Selke winner. And in the one postseason where his numbers dipped, he was still one of Detroit's best forwards.

Yet we're still going to attempt to knock him for a reputation that began before he evolved into the player that we're truly talking about? 2007-current Pavel Datsyuk is the player that is getting recognition to even get a thread in this forum, not 2001-2006 Datsyuk.

He's routinely overshadowed by other players on his team. No one said he stinks in the playoffs (though he certainly did pre lockout.) 2008 was proof he could do what was expected of him in the playoffs. He's just never lead his very good team when it counted, which is not all that remarkable. Just a chink in the armor so to speak.