If you're talking about me that's great news. I am one who ranks Modano higher on an all-time list than anyone I'd bet, and also recognize as well as anyone that you have to sacrifice some offense for a solid defensive game, and vice versa. Modano is one guy I can look at and say for sure he would have had more points in an all out offensive system, abandoning all defensive effort and responsibility. The only problem is, we're comparing him to Datsyuk. I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility that this guy would be neck and neck with Crosby and Ovechkin in the scoring race if he focused entirely on padding his own individual scoring numbers rather than play the best two-way game in the world. As far as I'm concerned, and this will only be more evident in 4 or 5 years, quote me on this, Datsyuk will be seen as quite decisively better than Modano both offensively and defensively (he already is, but in terms of career accomplishments).
Pavel Datsyuk
- Thread starter Reds4Life
- Start date
If you're talking about me that's great news. I am one who ranks Modano higher on an all-time list than anyone I'd bet, and also recognize as well as anyone that you have to sacrifice some offense for a solid defensive game, and vice versa. Modano is one guy I can look at and say for sure he would have had more points in an all out offensive system, abandoning all defensive effort and responsibility. The only problem is, we're comparing him to Datsyuk. I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility that this guy would be neck and neck with Crosby and Ovechkin in the scoring race if he focused entirely on padding his own individual scoring numbers rather than play the best two-way game in the world. As far as I'm concerned, and this will only be more evident in 4 or 5 years, quote me on this, Datsyuk will be seen as quite decisively better than Modano both offensively and defensively (he already is, but in terms of career accomplishments).
Big Phil
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- Nov 2, 2003
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Gainey won 5 Cups, was a Conn Smythe winner and is probably the reason the Selke is here in the first place. He was very highly revered in his time at what he did. This is why he is in the HHOF.
Datsyuk will get in there I am sure. This talk about him being close to Modano is a little premature though. Datsyuk has been in the NHL about 10 years since 2001. I can't see how his 10 years have trumped Modano's 20+ by now. Remember, Modano was the best player on a Cup winner and was in the final back to back years. In his prime Datsyuk was better but Modano still leads him in the overall career value category no doubt. You can't compare a practically "cinch" of a HHOFer's career to that of one where a guy played just 10 years and wasn't highly revered until about 4 years ago
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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I doubt that anyone who puts Datsyuk ahead of Modano would consider him to have had more career value than Modano. If Datsyuk could ever get to the point where he surpassed Modano in career value I don't think there would be any point in trying to compare them.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
from 1999-2004 in the THN yearbooks, Modano was ranked 8th, 6th, 5th, 7th, 15th, and 7th in the NHL. That's outstanding.
Datsyuk's been ranked in the past 7 yearbooks: 37, 31, 35, 36, 4, 4, 4.
There should be no doubt he is a HHOFer.
What are you talking about, Modano got tons of Selke consideration.
This post, and the other one that counts only their seasons as top-10 players, are sloppy statistics.
You're basing your opinion on someone nothitting an arbitrary cutoff number in any one season. The other guy is basically cutting off all but a player's best two seaons (top-10 in scoring) and cutting off the rest as though they are all equally crappy.
Datsyuk's best seasons offensively: 4, 4, 15, 17, 22.
Modano's best: 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16.
So Datsyuk's two best seasons are better offensively than Modano's two best, so he's better? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Modano's 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and every season beyond that are all better than Datsyuk's.
Also for what it's worth Modano is 17th all-time in career adjusted points. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html
By the end of this year, Datsyuk will have 3 seasons that are better than Modano's best. Do you really think datsyuk wasn't top 30 in either 2006 or 2007? Modano gets favourtism in those rankings because he's american.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
- This season is not better than Modano's best. If he wasn't injured, possibly. But if he maintains his pace for all remaining games, that's a 77 point season.
- There was no reason to call him a top-30 player in the 2006 yearbook as the last that was seen of him was the 2004 NHL season. In the 2007 book, maybe he should have been top-30, but really how high? Same in 2008.
- He's favoured by a canadian-based magazine because he's American? So, officially, anything can be used as basis for claiming favouritism.
Master_Of_Districts
Registered User
Isn't Datsyuk one of the leaders in [on-ice - off ice plus-minus] from the lockout onward?
That ought to count for something.
That ought to count for something.
The season itself won't be better than Modano's best, because obviously a 77 point season while missing a good chunk of games isn't equivalent to a 80+ point full season in the dead-puck era, but Datsyuk this season is playing better than Modano ever did.
Modano's best season > Datsyuk's 10-11 season
But...
2010-2011 Datsyuk > prime Modano
Crosby might finish this season with 70 points, but Crosby as a player right now is better than Modano ever was. Same concept.
How does the yearbook work? I've never subscribed. Does the 2006 yearbook, for example, take a look back at the 05-06 season or is it a preview/look-ahead addition?
Regardless, Datsyuk's game obviously was still growing throughout the lockout and in the first year back he finished 18th in scoring (14th in points/game as he ended up missing 7 games).
The following season, 06-07, was truly the beginning of his emergance as an elite 2-way player. His overall game started to really blossom: He was over 56% in the dot, he led the league in takeaways, he became a regular on the pk, and he started to engage more physically (not particularly in hits, but more so in using his body to win battles). His offensive game remained at a high level (87 points, finishing 17th in scoring) and most importantly he had a solid playoff run. He was Detroit's best forward that postseason - the Detroit team that lost in the Conference Finals in a tough series with the eventual Cup winners Anaheim. Datsyuk was absolutely one of the best 30 players in the NHL that season. He was closer to a Top 10 player than he was Top 30.
The following season, 07-08, he only took it further. Finished 4th in league scoring while winning the Selke and having a 23 point Cup winning postseason. That's usually good enough to categorize you in the Top 5 tier. He only finished 9th in Hart voting that season, but he was clearly splitting votes with Zetterberg, who finished 10th.
So from 2007 (end of the 06-07 season) is where you really seen Datsyuk's game hit its stride. And at this point, he really hasn't looked back. Since 2007 he's been considered a Top 5 forward both statistically and in the eyes of many.
In addition, it's not like THN yearbook is the be-all end-all.
As previously stated, Modano obviously has career value over Datsyuk right now. There's no disputing it. But Datsyuk already has peak value IMO.
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You are not seeing the entire picture. No one is saying that Datsyuk's 11 season career so far is better than Modano's 21 season career. We are saying Datyuk's peak is better than Modano's, and depending on how long he keeps this level of play up, he might or might not pass him on an all-time list.
As of this season, I'd go as far as saying his play this season has been his best ever. The term "controls the ice" gets thrown around a lot, but I have honestly not seen a player been such an all-round presense in all three zones for a long time. He has easily been the Red Wings best player this year.
With his defensive play in mind I'd take Datsyuk's 1.23 PPG over Stamkos's 1.27 any day. Being fourth in PPG while playing elite defence is a very powerful package.
His injury might keep him from recieving any awards this season, but that doesn't mean his level of playing has not been great.
unknown33
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2009
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Where can I find the results?
Only the past two lists seem to be available online ...
lazerbullet
Registered User
I just love that Modano gets extra votes for playing 20 years. Okay... Datsyuk's career will be shorter, but so what? Modano hasn't been that good for 4-5 years now. Only two things that Modano has over Datsyuk is being chosen 1st overall and having breakfast with Willa.
And I bet shorter career is not taking anything from Lafleur compared to Jagr. Double standard.
And I bet shorter career is not taking anything from Lafleur compared to Jagr. Double standard.
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
All you're doing is proving that Modano was a consistently good player whereas Datysuk for various factors has had a short but considerably higher peak. Most people would take this to imply that Datsyuk at his best is the better player than Modano at his best whereas Modano may have had the better career, which is all I've been saying.
You are arguing that Modano's 3rd-7th best seasons are better than the rest of what Datsyuk had to offer, I disagree. In 2010 Datsyuk won the selke and produced 70 points, in 1994 Modano scored 93 points and was completely one dimensional, a 93 point season from that era is like 78 points in today's standards. Datsyuk's 2006 and 2007 seasons are also better than Modano's 1994 season, and really if Datsyuk played the full 2006 and 2007 season, it would rival any of Modano's seasons from 1997-2003. I am arguing Dastyuk is the better player, not that he played longer.
That seems to only hold weight for Bobby Orr, Datsyuk and Forsberg not so much.
Datsyuk and Forsberg haven't been clearly better players than guys like Sakic, and Lidstrom, while playing on the same team using this metric.
Oh wait they have been you say? Then how come they aren't better players? Well, there careers aren't long enough, even though for multiple years they have been considered the best in the game, something that can't be said for those others, except maybe one year for Sakic? Same with Esposito. Using the same career logic could it not be argued that Esposito had a better career than Orr? He played most of the games for Boston, had the higher offensive peak, everyone knew Bobby was better, and obviously it helped that he was more than doubling other defenseman in points, but still there's double standards. I mean, Lafleur was good for exactly 6 years, albeit an amazing 6 with playoffs included which obviously adds to his legacy, and he's arguably a top 15 player all time. You can make that statement and be considered right for that. Then saying something like Forsberg is a top 25 player of all time gets outrage and omg he's so overrated! When the truth of the matter is, Forsberg was better than Lafleur based on his actual career compared to his peers, and maintained a longer level of elite play, although with lots of games missed here and there. Too many double standards and players being rewarded for tacking meaningless years on top of solid primes, where other guys who were good for longer, but maybe missed more games in their primes get screwed.
Just my opinion... (Not saying Datsyuk should be ranked higher than Lidstrom all-time or anything, although by the end of his career I will have clearly known who the better player was, or even Forsberg over Sakic for that matter, but he should atleast be quite a bit closer to him than he is maybe?)
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Preview/look ahead.
Yes, I agree that the fact they had him ranked 36th after that season means they were late to the Pavel Party.
Yes. He's been 4th for three straight yearbooks now. And for the 2011 edition, that's generous considering the off-year he had. Which is fine by me, because they were late in recognizing him and because it shows they don't just go for the flavour of the month; once you're established, you're in.
No, of course not. But, they are objective and I believe they do their best to put together a definitive list.
Yes, that is fair to say. But unless I misread this thread incorrectly late last night, I saw a few who said Datsyuk is already better on an all-time list. He's not.
Absolutely, so would I. Stamkos is pretty one-dimensional at this point, IMO.
Subscribe, and then keep your yearbooks for future reference
No, it's not just for playing 20 years. It's for being one of the game's 15 best players (usually 10) for a period of 7 years. Datsyuk hasn't done that. He still might.
As for Lafleur, no one criticizes him for a short career. His career was exceptionally long for his era. He's criticized for not being very good for very long. Jagr was. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
A top-16 scorer is not just "good" - that's a player who would lead all but about 10 teams in scoring (many teams often had a couple in the top-16) - add in that he was playing a defensive style in a very tight system and it becomes even more impressive.
Datsyuk's peak may be better, but it is not "considerably" better and Modano's longevity (not just as a player, but as an elite player), is considerable better at this point.
you said it yourself, Modano was still one-dimensional in 1994, and therefore that is not his 3rd-best season for comparison. Compare it to his actual 3rd-best (perhaps 2003, 10th in scoring, 6th for Selke, 15 pts in 12 PO games) and yes, I'd take that over Datsyuk's 3rd best (which is probably this season, and not the 06 and 07 seasons when he was 15th-17th in scoring and not yet a defensive stud)
Was supposed to write "didn't get so much...". My point is that you don't get Selke awards when you play with Lehtinen. The talk would probably go like :
A: "That Modano sure is pretty good defensively"
B: "Yeah but that Lehtinen dude is even better and has a more defensive role."
No slight to Modano.
vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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i don't really want to get into datsyuk vs. modano, but i have one thing to add.
bob gainey, doug jarvis, guy carbonneau, craig ludwig, brian skrudland, and mike lalor are a pretty decent group to learn the defensive side of the game from. not to mention solid two-way guys like brian propp, neal broten, and bobby smith. and of course hitch.
bob gainey, doug jarvis, guy carbonneau, craig ludwig, brian skrudland, and mike lalor are a pretty decent group to learn the defensive side of the game from. not to mention solid two-way guys like brian propp, neal broten, and bobby smith. and of course hitch.
lazerbullet
Registered User
So Lafleur was great for a short period of time. Jagr was almost as good for the same period PLUS was great for several extra years. Yet many prefer Lafleur.
By the exact same logic Datsyuk should be ranked above Modano. Higher peak, less elite years.
Plus, as someone mentioned. Nobody was comparing Modano to Jagr. But you could build a case for Datsyuk against Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin.
He considers Jagr better than Lafleur, as do many people in this section based on the last thread about them, so that comparison doesn't really hold much weight.
As for the Datsyuk-Modano argument that this thread has sort of devolved into, I think some people are overrating the length of Datysuk's prime so far. I think most people would agree that Datsyuk's 07-08 and 08-09 seasons are better than Modano's best, but 05-06 and 06-07 I would consider roughly on par with several of Modano's 7 best prime years (it's hard to distinguish between many of them). Last year was a down year offensively that was below Modano's best, and this year, while he's been back to his 07-09 levels, he's been injured for part of it, and I'd say it's about the same as Modano's 97-98 season where he seemed like he'd finally put it all together offensively and was 4th in PPG before getting injured.
All in all, Datsyuk has a bit better peak, but he's probably a couple seasons short of matching Modano's prime, and he doesn't have much value outside of the the season's since the lockout (basically only the '04 season), whereas Modano's purely offensive years were still decent. Datsyuk looks great this year, and because so much of his game is based on his smarts he may keep going strong for another couple years (though Modano fell off after his age 32 season after having a typical year before, so you never know). If he does that, has some strong playoffs and then a reasonable drop off to end his career, he'll most likely pass Modano, and be in the discussion for top 100, but I think it's too early yet
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Lafleur is often ranked over Jagr because of his playoff dominance. If you just look at regular seasons, they have similar peaks, but Jagr maintained it longer.
So by the logic of Lafleur > Jagr because of playoffs, you very well could rank Modano over Datsyuk, as Modano is definitely the better playoff performer so far.
Anyway, I'm not even sure Datsyuk had a better peak than Modano, if you weigh playoff performances heavily as part of their respective peaks.
Right, do you honestly watch modern day hockey, or anyone for that matter who shares this opinion? I'm sorry but there's just no way, how do you come to this conclusion? Datysuk's playoff run his cup year was very good, almost as good as any of Modano's. He's had two other playoff runs where he was also fairly good too. The thing is his best regular seasons so far haven't been remotely touched by Modano.
Anyone who can't get the following through their heads is just being naive... Modano at his absolute best, is not comparable to Datsyuk today as a player. Datsyuk is the second best player in the game, and he's been 4th best or arguably the best player a few years. His 97 point years with the Selke saw the top scorer with 112 and 110 points. In those 2 years the only players that even have a case for being better than him are Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin.
So once again, Modano at his peak couldn't touch Hawerchuk, but Datsyuk at his peak isn't any better than Modano, yeah OK.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Yes
What?
Datsyuk was the 4th most important player on the Wings when they won the Cup in 2008. Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and Franzen were all better. Modano's 1999 and 2000 blow away anything Datsyuk ever did in the playoffs. And Modano had many more "fairly good" playoffs than Datsyuk is.
Regular season peak goes to Datsyuk by a small but definite margin, of course.
In the regular season, sure.
You seriously think Datsyuk was arguably the best player a few years and you're calling me naive?
Frankly, I think it's silly to write off Ovechkin just yet after less than a full down year, when you call Datsyuk "the second best player in the game." I'm assuming that even you don't rank him over Crosby.
Crosby and Ovechkin were better than Datsyuk period. He was arguably 3rd best behind them, yes... in the regular season.
Where did I saw Modano at his peak couldn't touch Hawerchuk? I think it's quite close between them, with Hawerchuk a definite step above both Modano and Datsyuk offensively.
Reds4Life
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- Dec 24, 2007
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Keep in mind Datsyuk was inured in 09 playoffs. Even if he wasn't as good as in regular season, he was still a top player. I don't think Modano ever reached Zetterberg's level in the playoffs, so saying Modano was the best forward on a Cup winning team does not mean he'd be the best on the Red Wings too.
And by the way, Lafleur over Jagr in playoffs is arguable*, but overall, I just don't understand why Jagr is usually taken around 30th spot in ATD, and Lafleur is usually in the top20.
*Lafleur playing for the best team in the league by far gave him a much better starting point.
And by the way, Lafleur over Jagr in playoffs is arguable*, but overall, I just don't understand why Jagr is usually taken around 30th spot in ATD, and Lafleur is usually in the top20.
*Lafleur playing for the best team in the league by far gave him a much better starting point.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Yes, Zetterberg's Smythe winning performance in 2008 is one of the best performances ever of two-way hockey when it mattered most.
