Pavel Datsyuk

[Reds4Life]

Do you think he is among top150 players to ever play the game?
By the end of his career, can he make it to top100?

Datsyuk is basically a PPG player, has 3 Selke trophies and 4 Lady Byngs.

He can be criticized for playoff performance, and if he does not add a few good runs, it might keep him out of the top100 when he retires. That said, I think he already is a top150 player ever.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He still has a way to go to catch up with Mike Modano, and Modano is a very fringe Top 150 player.

I can easily see Datsyuk as a fringe top 150 player by the end of his career, but he needs to really pick it up in the playoffs to be considered a low-end Top 100 player (like Fedorov is now).

 

[Reds4Life]

He still has a way to go to catch up with Mike Modano, and Modano is a very fringe Top 150 player.

Long way to catch up with Modano?

Modano has only one 2nd AST selection, just like Datsyuk.
Datsyuk has 3 Selkes already, Modano has none, although he was a very good defensive player in his prime. Playoffs go to Modano as of now. Offensive peak goes to Datsyuk.
They are actually pretty close imho.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Long way to catch up with Modano?

Modano has only one 2nd AST selection, just like Datsyuk.
Datsyuk has 3 Selkes already, Modano has none, although he was a very good defensive player in his prime. Playoffs go to Modano as of now.
They are actually pretty close imho.

The "counting Selkes" thing is pretty silly.

Their regular season credentials are similar, but Modano was the cornerstone of a powerhouse team for quite some time and has much better playoff credentials.

 

[Reds4Life]

It's not counting Selkes, they just indicate that Datsyuk was considered the best defensive forward in the NHL three times. While Modano was great defensive player, he was never the best in the NHL.
Datsyuk is also better offensively.
Playoffs go to Modano, as of now, but Datsyuk has been a cornerstone of one of the best teams in the league for quite some time too. In any case, I fail to see how can Modano be considered much better than Datsyuk, they are very close imho.

edit:

I can easily see Datsyuk as a fringe top 150 player by the end of his career, but he needs to really pick it up in the playoffs to be considered a low-end Top 100 player (like Fedorov is now).

Fedorov should be around 70-75th spot, not a low end top100 player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's not counting Selkes,

"I'm not counting Selkes, but"

hey just indicate that Datsyuk was considered the best defensive forward in the NHL three times. While Modano was great defensive player, he was never the best in the NHL.

"I actually am."

For what it's worth, Modano finished 2nd in Selke voting once himself, in addition to a couple of other high finishes.

Datsyuk is also better offensively.

Very debatable, when you consider team situations - coaching strategies (Dallas was perhaps the most conservative team of the era), matchups (Modano always played the tough defensive minutes, Zetterberg often did for Detroit), and teammates, especially Lidstrom.

Playoffs go to Modano, as of now, but Datsyuk has been a cornerstone of one of the best teams in the league for quite some time too. In any case, I fail to see how can Modano be considered much better than Datsyuk, they are very close imho.

Datsyuk's true legacy will be created when Lidstrom retires IMO. Just like Lidstrom's true legacy was defined after Yzerman left. How will Datsyuk do with the Wings as "his time?" Only time will tell.

 

[Reds4Life]

"I'm not counting Selkes, but"

"I actually am."

So you'd rather ignore them altogether?

For what it's worth, Modano finished 2nd in Selke voting once himself, in addition to a couple of other high finishes.

Yes, like I said, very good, just not the best defensive player in the NHL. Datsyuk should be given an edge in defensive play.

Very debatable, when you consider team situations - coaching strategies (Dallas was perhaps the most conservative team of the era), matchups (Modano always played the tough defensive minutes, Zetterberg often did for Detroit), and teammates, especially Lidstrom.

Datsyuk plays the tough minutes, just like Zetterberg. Modano had a pretty good supporting cast too - Zubov is very good offensive defenseman. Datsyuk put up better numbers while playing elite defense, just like Modano.

Datsyuk's true legacy will be created when Lidstrom retires IMO. Just like Lidstrom's true legacy was defined after Yzerman left. How will Datsyuk do with the Wings as "his time?" Only time will tell.

Datsyuk is the best Red Wing now, and has been for the last couple of seasons.

 

[Dom]

When Dats has more than 1000 games played he will compare a lot better to Modano. Modano has more than twice the games played. 1479 - 644.

Other than that:

Top 10 finishes in points
Datsyuk 4,4
Modano 8,9,10

Hart trophy finishes
Datsyuk 3, 9,21,21
Modano 7,7,11,10,12,19

Dastyuk's achievements can't make up for Modano's longevity (yet).

 

[JackSlater]

I could see Datsyuk among the top 150 if you very strongly value peak. I will be quite interested to see how long he can play at a high level, since he did not play as many games/minutes as most star players have by their early 30s. His biggest weakness historically is longevity at the moment.A signature playoff run would also help him in terms of popular opinion.

 

[Reds4Life]

Hart trophy finishes
Datsyuk 9,21,21 (Just realized i'm missing some years here)
Modano 7,7,11,10,12,19

I am pretty sure Datsyuk was a finalist (top3) for the Hart in 08-09.

 

[Dom]

I am pretty sure Datsyuk was a finalist (top3) for the Hart in 08-09.

Was missing 2009 and 2010, correction made.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

By the end of his career he'll fairly easily be a top 100 player ever and comfortably surpass Modano all-time. Obviously, Datsyuk's prime is already better though.

 

[Derick*]

I think each of Modano, Datsyuk, and Fedorov are very underrated and underappreciated. I don't know enough about historical players to talk about all-time rankings, but for all the talk people give about defensive play, they regularly will rate a great defensive player below a bad defensive player who get 5 more regular season points per season, and it's ridiculous. I think Datsyuk is arguably the best player in the game.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think Datsyuk's problem as far as recognition goes will be career totals. Datsyuk only entered the league at 23, Modano was a star at 19. He'll have to play until he's 38-39 and produce to get to that 1000 game/1000 point plateau.

But as far as level of play is concerned? Well, I think Datsyuk has often been in the discussion for a top 3 or top 5 player in the league, and best all-round player for sure. In Modano's case I'd say that debate was more top 10. I think Datsyuk at his best beats Modano at his best, but Modano will get somewhat inflationary credit for having been the "face" of a Cup-winning team and picking up big totals over a 20 year career.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I think each of Modano, Datsyuk, and Fedorov are very underrated and underappreciated. I don't know enough about historical players to talk about all-time rankings, but for all the talk people give about defensive play, they regularly will rate a great defensive player below a bad defensive player who get 5 more regular season points per season, and it's ridiculous. I think Datsyuk is arguably the best player in the game.

I think this is very true. Especially regarding Datsyuk and Modano. All three are incredibly healthy and have very obvious offensive skill to go along with their amazing defense.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think people are forgetting how old Datsyuk actually is. He'll be 33 this summer, how many more elite seasons are people expecting?

Modano was an elite player for a decade, Datsyuk has only been one for half of that span. I agree that they are comparable for regular season peak, but longevity and playoffs are in Modano's favour. Datsyuk could still overcome that, but I think it's unlikely at his age.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I think people are forgetting how old Datsyuk actually is. He'll be 33 this summer, how many more elite seasons are people expecting?

Modano was an elite player for a decade, Datsyuk has only been one for half of that span. I agree that they are comparable for regular season peak, but longevity and playoffs are in Modano's favour. Datsyuk could still overcome that, but I think it's unlikely at his age.

Datsyuk will be an elite player in this league for the next 5 seasons atleast, barring any major injury. My honest opinion.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He still has a way to go to catch up with Mike Modano, and Modano is a very fringe Top 150 player.

I can easily see Datsyuk as a fringe top 150 player by the end of his career, but he needs to really pick it up in the playoffs to be considered a low-end Top 100 player (like Fedorov is now).

Funny Modano was the 1st guy I thought of as well. (Let's hope that we haven't seen the last of him either).

Pavel is only 31 and has lots of hockey left in him. How he ages will determine if he cracks the top 150 of all time.

I would guess he's in the top 250 right now but it's very hard to judge players who are still playing and in their primes.

Right now he has 2 seasons of over 100 points adjusted and 2 more of over 80.

This year he was on pace for over 100 again and probably if he has a couple more 90 plus seasons he will be considered a top 150 guy.

His defense really is that good.

Of course any more playoff and international success would help his case as well.

His current playoff record is pretty decent when you take it into context.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Surprisingly Nick Lidstrom is the top scoring player in the 1st decade of the 21st century playoffs who would have guessed that off the top of their heads? 3 Dmen in the top 10 as well, certainly completely different than the regular season.

Years 2001-2010

 

[canucks4ever]

Datsyuk was being mentioned as one of the best along with ovy and crosby, i dont ever recall Modano being mentioned alongside Jagr.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think each of Modano, Datsyuk, and Fedorov are very underrated and underappreciated. I don't know enough about historical players to talk about all-time rankings, but for all the talk people give about defensive play, they regularly will rate a great defensive player below a bad defensive player who get 5 more regular season points per season, and it's ridiculous. I think Datsyuk is arguably the best player in the game.

Agree here especially with Sid out probably for the year, if he hadn't missed those 19 games a Hart might have been there for him this year but it's unlikely now.

I think Datsyuk's problem as far as recognition goes will be career totals. Datsyuk only entered the league at 23, Modano was a star at 19. He'll have to play until he's 38-39 and produce to get to that 1000 game/1000 point plateau.

But as far as level of play is concerned? Well, I think Datsyuk has often been in the discussion for a top 3 or top 5 player in the league, and best all-round player for sure. In Modano's case I'd say that debate was more top 10. I think Datsyuk at his best beats Modano at his best, but Modano will get somewhat inflationary credit for having been the "face" of a Cup-winning team and picking up big totals over a 20 year career.

Pavel had a late NHL start at the age of 23 and how he ages will determine where he ends up.

Modano had 11 seasons (adjusted between 75 and 92 points).

his playoff prowess in the 90's

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

has him in some very good company indeed.

Pavel might end up with the better peak and better defensive play as well but unless he has 4-8 years left in the tank and with not a huge drop off, I'm not sure he is going to pass Modano on the all time charts.

 

[Blades of Glory]

By the end of his career he'll fairly easily be a top 100 player ever and comfortably surpass Modano all-time. Obviously, Datsyuk's prime is already better though.

I have no idea how you come to any of these conclusions.

Mike Modano's prime was a 12 season stretch from 1992 to 2003. It began at the end of the high-scoring era and was mostly done in the dead puck era. In those 12 seasons, he scored 70 points twice, 80 points six times, and 90 points twice. He scored 30 goals nine times, including 50. Modano scored between 75-93 points in 10 of those 12 seasons. Aside from the shortened lockout year, the only time he did not reach 75 point plateau in that period was in 1998, when he put up 59 points in only 52 games.

Not to mention, he played in one of the most stifling defensive systems in hockey history under Ken Hitchcock, and in the peak of the worst offensive era in the last half-century. Hitchcock openly said in 1999 that his system hurt Modano's offensive numbers significantly. There is absolutely nothing that Pavel Datsyuk does better than Mike Modano did, aside from display aesthetically pleasing stick-handling. Modano was one of the greatest all-around playoff performers in NHL history. Three 20 point playoffs is something few players have ever done. He should have won the Conn Smythe in 1999. The difference between Modano and Datsyuk is named Henrik Zetterberg, who does the real heavy lifting in Detroit. Zetterberg is by far the best defensive forward in the league, and draws every defensive matchup against an elite opposing forward. In 2008 and 2009, Zetterberg carried Detroit in the playoffs the same way Modano put the Stars on his back in 1999 and 2000.

Datsyuk is a great player and his peak is slightly better than Modano's peak. But you will be hard-pressed to find a legitimate case for him being better than Modano on an all-time list. Datsyuk's competition for the Hart Trophy is nothing compared to what Modano faced. Modano played in an era when the NHL had far more truly elite players than they do today, albeit with less talent on the lower lines.

 

[Reds4Life]

I have no idea how you come to any of these conclusions.

Mike Modano's prime was a 12 season stretch from 1992 to 2003. It began at the end of the high-scoring era and was mostly done in the dead puck era. In those 12 seasons, he scored 70 points twice, 80 points six times, and 90 points twice. He scored 30 goals nine times, including 50. Modano scored between 75-93 points in 10 of those 12 seasons. Aside from the shortened lockout year, the only time he did not reach 75 point plateau in that period was in 1998, when he put up 59 points in only 52 games.

Not to mention, he played in one of the most stifling defensive systems in hockey history under Ken Hitchcock, and in the peak of the worst offensive era in the last half-century. Hitchcock openly said in 1999 that his system hurt Modano's offensive numbers significantly. There is absolutely nothing that Pavel Datsyuk does better than Mike Modano did, aside from display aesthetically pleasing stick-handling. Modano was one of the greatest all-around playoff performers in NHL history. Three 20 point playoffs is something few players have ever done. He should have won the Conn Smythe in 1999. The difference between Modano and Datsyuk is named Henrik Zetterberg, who does the real heavy lifting in Detroit. Zetterberg is by far the best defensive forward in the league, and draws every defensive matchup against an elite opposing forward. In 2008 and 2009, Zetterberg carried Detroit in the playoffs the same way Modano put the Stars on his back in 1999 and 2000.

Datsyuk is better defensively, which is clear by watching the games and also evidenced by Selke voting.

If you watch the games, or look at the competition stats, you will see that Datsyuk plays against the opposition's best, just like Modano did and Zetterberg does.

Datsyuk has to play great defense too, if he was allowed to focus solely on offense, his numbers would go up - same for Modano.

So all in all, the bolded part is pure BS.

 

[Blades of Glory]

Datsyuk is better defensively, which is clear by watching the games and also evidenced by Selke voting.

If you watch the games, or look at the competition stats, you will see that Datsyuk plays against the opposition's best, just like Modano did and Zetterberg does.

Datsyuk has to play great defense too, if he was allowed to focus solely on offense, his numbers would go up - same for Modano.

So all in all, the bolded part is pure BS.

Datsyuk is an outstanding defensive player with tremendous awareness and back-checking. But in the playoffs, he does not draw individual matchups against the opposing team's best forward. Henrik Zetterberg does. There are defensive forwards and there are shutdown forwards. It is one thing to be great in the defensive zone, a la Datsyuk. It is a completely different thing to be one of the greatest playoff shutdown forwards in NHL history. That is what Zetterberg is. He is tasked with shadowing opposing forwards in the playoffs the way that Bob Gainey was, but is also their top offensive player at the same time.

If you really watch the Red Wings, you know that. Last year, Detroit lost to San Jose because Datsyuk was manhandled by Joe Thornton. Mike Babcock wanted Zetterberg's line out against Thornton, and when that happened, Zetterberg shut him down cold. But the Sharks managed to get Thornton out against Datsyuk, who while being an elite defensive player, lacks the size and gritty physicality to individually defend the way Zetterberg does. Datsyuk had no chance.

Now, nowhere did I say Modano was better than Datsyuk defensively. As far as I am concerned, they are very even in that regard. Both were great defensive players, but neither was a true shutdown forward. But at the same time, please do not compare Mike Babcock's system in today's NHL to Ken Hitchcock's system in the dead puck era.

Datsyuk is not Sergei Fedorov or Peter Forsberg. Those were the only two two-way centers that were better than Modano during his prime.

 

[Reds4Life]

Datsyuk is an outstanding defensive player with tremendous awareness and back-checking. But in the playoffs, he does not draw individual matchups against the opposing team's best forward. Henrik Zetterberg does. There are defensive forwards and there are shutdown forwards. It is one thing to be great in the defensive zone, a la Datsyuk. It is a completely different thing to be one of the greatest playoff shutdown forwards in NHL history. That is what Zetterberg is. He is tasked with shadowing opposing forwards in the playoffs the way that Bob Gainey was, but is also their top offensive player at the same time.

If you really watch the Red Wings, you know that. Last year, Detroit lost to San Jose because Datsyuk was manhandled by Joe Thornton. Mike Babcock wanted Zetterberg's line out against Thornton, and when that happened, Zetterberg shut him down cold. But the Sharks managed to get Thornton out against Datsyuk, who while being an elite defensive player, lacks the size and gritty physicality to individually defend the way Zetterberg does.

Now, nowhere did I say Modano was better than Datsyuk defensively. As far as I am concerned, they are very even in that regard. Both were great defensive players, but neither was a true shutdown forward.

Yes, Zetterberg is usually is the shutdown forward, but saying that Datsyuk was manhandled by Thornton is quite funny.
Wings lost because of poor goaltending, and refs (yes, indeed).
That series was close, quite a few one goal games. Datsyuk had 5 points, +1 rating in 5 games.
Zetterberg had 4 points and +5 rating in 5 games (but got 2 points and +3 in that only (but big) Wings win in the series, which was all Franzen). You remove that game and it is
Datsyuk 4 points, even rating in 4 games
Zetterberg 2 points, +2 in 4 games.

Thornton was -2, (+1 if you ignore that blowout game).
Just saying.

Zetterberg is a playoff beast, certainly better than Datsyuk in that area, but Datsyuk is still better than Modano defensively, and I don't see how that is even arguable. Unlike Modano, Datsyuk was named the best defensive forward in the game three times.

 

[tony d]

Really good player. Top 5 player in the game now easily, give him another few years before we consider him Top 150 all-time though.