Alexander the Gr8
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As a Caps fan, I definitely consider Ovechkin's prime finished or close to it, but he's had a long prime and it was definitely better than Bure's.
Pavel Bure vs. Alex Ovechkin (prime years)
- Thread starter The Panther
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As a Caps fan, I definitely consider Ovechkin's prime finished or close to it, but he's had a long prime and it was definitely better than Bure's.
NewUser293223
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Can you please list the 5 or 6 of the best players of his generation who were injured and then maybe go a bit deeper and point out which one of them do you think would have grabbed the golden opportunity and netted almost sixty goals in 74 games for Florida Panthers like Bure did? It's obvious it must have been really easy, with the fact no-one is gonna steal any spotlight from you thus some Hart votes are guaranteed being a huge motivating factor, am I right?
Next time you wanna receive a couple of 1st- or 2nd-place Hart ballots, all you gotta do is score almost 60 goals for a non-contender and be lucky enough to do it with no support, because this sort of luck makes the Hart votes pour your way.
Don't forget to add how well the young Ray Whitney did on that Panthers team compared with Bure and how well he did in his older day compared with Alex Ovechkin. It might shed some light on the slight possibility that scoring and catching Hart voters' eye may have been a task of a different difficulty level back in Bure's day.
You can do it, chief.
sr edler
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This again?
Those ENGs really tells everything about that season. It's not like he had 14 GWGs or anything....You would have to be around with open eyes when Bure joined the Panthers in 98–99 to really experience the impact he had on that team for a short period of time. He tallied 13 goals in 11 games and literally scared teams to standing still. My favorite game from that season is Panthers vs Avalance when Bure scored a hat-trick but had to leave the game before the third period, Panthers up 5–1. What happens next is Forsberg moves in from Bure's shadow and scores 6 points (3+3) winning the game 5–7.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Hasek (35 GP), Jagr (63 GP), Sakic (60 GP), Forsberg (49 GP), Lindros (55 GP), and depending on your mileage, the first season of Selanne's steady decline (down 22 points). 5 or 6.
So yeah, that opened things up for Bure to receive the only 1st or 2nd place Hart votes of his career. And we're comparing him to a player who won either the Hart or Pearson/Lindsay in four different seasons.
GMR
Registered User
NewUser293223
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Hasek was having his worst SV% in seven years, Forsberg and Lindros were having their worst seasons in terms of PPG (they also had some teammates who could draw the Hart attention from them, to cite your argument) and Sakic looked nowhere near having a similar impact on the Avs to what Bure did on the Panthers. It's true that Jagr's Hart chances probably went down the toilet with the games he missed, but other than that, from the existent samples it doesn't really look that Bure's Hart votes were that much of a fluke. He seemed to have a better season than the best players of his generation anyway.
EDIT: It's noteworthy you see Bure getting a supposed leeway because so many great players failed to deliver that year without seeing how much Bure's and Ovi's Hart competion differed. The same Hart leeway Bure had for a year Ovechkin enjoyed almost his entire career. No Hasek, no Lindros, no Forsberg, no prime Sakic, no Selanne, no peak Jagr... Often not even his own best contemporaries (Crosby and Malkin).
How about this: if you take the best five seasons of each, Bure scored more goals, points and had a better PPG and GPG. Seems relevant when comparing their primes. Of course you can consider Ovechkin's better, but let's not act like it's understood or the only legit way to go.
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Blade Paradigm
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I'll try to persuade you here to think of those points as positives for Bure, not negatives. While at face value, one could claim that 9 EN goals is "inflation" of his goal total, one also has to consider the circumstances of the player being in that situation and the net (overall) effect of his placement on the ice in the final minute of a one-goal game.
Let's look at some statistics:
In 1999-00, out of 28 teams, the Florida Panthers only allowed 2 goals against when down 5-on-6, which ranks in the bottom-third of the league (bottom being fewest GA, top being most). That tied them with two other teams for ninth-best at keeping the puck out of the net 5-on-6 (with Ottawa and Montreal). Only eight teams were better. Of the teams that allowed more goals than them in 5-on-6 situations, six teams allowed three goals; six teams allowed four goals; five teams allowed five. If we include 4-on-6 situations where the net is empty but the trailing team has a two-man advantage, the Panthers were the eleventh-best team, as they allowed one 4-on-6 goal for a total of 3 GA with six skaters on the other side. Two teams allowed three goals against specifically in 5-on-6 situations. Seven teams allowed 4 GA when 4-on-6 situations are factored in; 5 teams allowed 5 GA; two teams allowed 6 GA; one team, the Boston Bruins, allowed 7 goals against when the other team had six skaters on the ice. I exclude 3-on-6 situations because (1) the Panthers, as well as 25 other teams allowed none; (2) they are rare and comparing between teams offers little information.
In terms of Goals For 5-on-6, meanwhile, the Florida Panthers ranked second in the NHL with 12. They also scored one goal 4-on-6. That is a total of 13 empty net goals that the Panthers scored while the other team had six skaters on the ice. Sixteen NHL teams scored 6 or fewer goals while the other team had six skaters on the ice, while eight teams scored 7. One team scored 8. One team scored 10. The St. Louis Blues scored 14 empty net goals while down 5-on-6, and 2 while down 4-on-6 for a total of 16 EN goals.
This means that twenty-six other teams had much more difficulty closing games than the Panthers -- the differential between GF and GA with the Panthers of 10 is much higher than any team other than the St. Louis Blues, who closed games by committee (10 St. Louis players scored at least one empty net goal, but only Mike Eastwood scored three). The team with the third-highest empty-net total, for example -- Philadelphia --, had 10 GF 5-on-6, but they allowed 3 goals when down 5-on-6, and 1 goal 4-on-6, for a differential of 6. The team with the fourth most EN goals, Phoenix, scored 8 goals when the other team had six skaters on the ice, but allowed 5 goals: a differential of 3. The worst differential belongs to the Calgary Flames, who only scored 2 empty-net goals that season but allowed five goals against when down 5-on-6 -- a differential of -3. Teams had a much better success rate scoring a goal with their goaltender pulled against every other team except Florida and St. Louis.
Out of the 13 empty net goals scored by Florida that season, Bure scored 9 of them, one of which was the 4-on-6 EN goal against Pittsburgh. He scored his nine EN goals in nine separate games. Seven of them were the insurance goal that gave the Panthers a two-goal lead. The shorthanded goal was one of the two that gave the Panthers a three-goal lead. Rob Neidermayer, Scott Mellanby, Viktor Kozlov, and Robert Svehla each scored one empty net goal.
In the entire NHL, no player other than Bure scored more than 3 EN goals. Only six other NHL players scored 3 EN goals. 30 players scored 2 EN goals. 94 players scored 1 EN goal. Bure scored three times as many EN goals as any other player.
When one considers that the Panthers allowed a very low 2 goals against in the final minute of a one-goal game and guaranteed themselves a victory with a very high 13 EN goals, one could say that the Panthers were an extremely difficult team to defeat if they had a one-goal lead in the final minute of a game.
One may consider Bure as a closer -- someone who could seal a victory for his team. That season, he was by far the best closer in the NHL.
Bure led the league with 45 even strength goals that season, which also led the league in that category. He led the second-next player by 13 even strength goals -- Jaromir Jagr, the second-place finisher, only scored 32. Paul Kariya, third, scored 28. Even without the 9 EN goals -- technically, they are considered to be even strength goals --, Bure would have scored more even strength goals than any other player in the NHL.
15 times he scored the first goal of the game, which led the league. Everyone knows that leading a game changes a team's approach, and it opens up the opposition as they play a more aggressive game. No other player scored the first goal of the game more than 11 times. In fact, only two players scored 11 -- Steve Yzerman and Jaromir Jagr. Only 16 players in the league scored more than 7 opening goals, a number that Bure doubled. On his own team, he scored 15 of the team's 45 opening goals that season; the next-highest total was four by Jaroslav Spacek; three Panthers players scored three opening goals; five players scored two opening goals that season; seven scored one. Four of Bure's 15 opening goals were GWGs.
Bure had 14 GWGs, which led the league in GWGs. Only six other players scored more than 7 GWG in the entire league.
One might wrongfully declare that some of his GWGs were empty net goals, but in fact zero of his GWGs were empty net goals. There were six games where he scored one empty net goal and the GWG in the same game, but they were all multi-goal games.
Here are the nine game logs documenting his empty-net goals:
1999-10-06: LA vs FLA: Los Angeles Kings - Florida Panthers - October 6th, 1999 (4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-11: FLA @ NSH: Florida Panthers - Nashville Predators - December 11th, 1999 (4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-17: FLA @ BUF: Florida Panthers - Buffalo Sabres - December 17th, 1999 (hat trick: 1-0 PP first goal, 3-1 GWG, 4-2 insurance EN goal)
1999-12-18: FLA @ PIT: Florida Panthers - Pittsburgh Penguins - December 18th, 1999 (two-goal game: 3-0 goal, 5-2 shorthanded EN goal)
2000-01-01: TB vs FLA: Tampa Bay Lightning - Florida Panthers - January 1st, 2000 (four-goal game: 3-1 PP goal, 5-4 goal, 6-5 GWG, 7-5 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-01: TOR vs FLA: Toronto Maple Leafs - Florida Panthers - March 1st, 2000 (two-goal game: 2-0 goal, 3-1 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-18: FLA @ NYR: Florida Panthers - New York Islanders - March 18th, 2000 (hat trick: 2-1 goal, 3-2 GWG, 4-2 insurance EN goal)
2000-03-23: FLA @ BOS: Florida Panthers - Boston Bruins - March 23rd, 2000 (3-1 insurance EN goal)
2000-04-03: NJ vs FLA: New Jersey Devils - Florida Panthers - April 3rd, 2000 (two-goal game: 3-1 PP goal, 5-2 EN goal)
To conclude, Bure led in the categories of: opening goals, game-winning goals, and goals to seal a victory. He scored 24.18% of the team's goals and contributed to 38.52% of the team's scoring.
Even without the EN goals, he still scored more goals than anyone else at even strength.
If anyone wants to criticize his ice time, they have to consider that he played an average of 1:58 of TOI shorthanded per game, which obviously inflates his total average TOI by nearly 2 minutes. However, he only scored 2 shorthanded goals that season, so that shorthanded TOI did not factor much into his goal total at all.
At even strength, he played an average of 17:52 of TOI. That is only an average of two seconds more than Joe Sakic, who played 17:50 of even strength ice time per game. Sakic averaged 23:15 of total TOI, whereas Bure averaged 24:23, but that is only because Bure played 1:58 of shorthanded TOI as opposed to Sakic's average of 1:15 of shorthanded TOI per game. Aside from shorthanded time, their ice time per game was practically the same.
Kariya played an average of 24:21 of TOI per game, two seconds less than Bure. Teemu Selanne averaged 48 seconds less of EV TOI and 1:30 less of shorthanded TOI, but averaged 38 seconds more of powerplay TOI than Bure.
Eric Lindros averaged 1:15 less of EV TOI, 1:02 of shorthanded TOI and 5 seconds of powerplay TOI.
Jaromir Jagr averaged 23:12 of total TOI -- he averaged 48 seconds less of EV TOI, but averaged just 0:16 seconds of shorthanded TOI and 5:50 of powerplay TOI. He averaged 1:42 less of shorthanded time, but played an average of 1:18 more of powerplay time.
Bure played more PK time than Sakic and, to a greater extent, Jagr, Lindros, and Selanne. He played less powerplay time than any of them and ranked 15th in the NHL in average powerplay TOI per game for forwards.
With all of that time geared towards the penalty kill, the Florida Panthers were 10th in the NHL in penalty kill % with a PK% of 85.4. He ranked third out of all forwards on the Florida Panthers in total shorthanded TOI with 146:19 that season, only behind Ryan Johnson (159:47) and Rob Neidermayer (230:41). Worth noting is that while on the ice, Rob Neidermayer allowed the most PP Goals Against on the Panthers with 23 PP goals against. Ryan Johnson allowed 15 PP GA, the third-most on the Panthers. Bure was on the ice for just 9 powerplay goals against while on his team's penalty kill, ranked 11th in PP goals against on the 1999-00 Panthers.
Of the forwards, Rob Neidermayer was ranked 1st in PP goals against (5.98 PP GA/60); Ryan Johnson was ranked 2nd in PP goals against (5.63 PP GA/60). Ranked third and fourth were Radek Dvorak (with an abysmal 11 GA in 78:50 of shorthanded TOI) and Viktor Kozlov (11 GA in 140:28 of SH TOI), while Bure was ranked 5th out of the penalty-killing forwards in terms of PP goals against with 9 PP GA in 146:19 (3.69 PP GA/60). Bure and Ray Whitney were the most reliable penalty-killing forwards on the 1999-00 Florida Panthers, but Whitney only played 84:16 of SH TOI. Bure was the team's most effective high-minute penalty-killing forward, and his two shorthanded goals -- the team's only two shorthanded goals that season -- made him not only the team's most reliable penalty-killing forward but their most dangerous shorthanded threat. When Bure was on the penalty kill, the net effect is that opposing teams were afraid to be aggressive and make mistakes. Bure only scored 2 shorthanded goals that season but is tied with Marian Hossa and Derek Sanderson for 11th all-time in shorthanded goals with 34, so he was an elite penalty killer.
Bure was relied on heavily for penalty killing by the Florida Panthers and was very successful for his team. The Panthers were shorthanded 323 times, ranked 14th in the NHL.
He also had fewer powerplay points (20) than any other player in the Top 10 of NHL scoring that season except Tony Amonte (19) despite the Panthers having the eighth-ranked PP% in the NHL with 58 goals in 338 attempts. This means that other players on the team capitalized on the powerplay and he was less reliant on the PP to score points than his league-leading NHL peers.
The Anaheim Ducks received 332 powerplay attempts -- six less than the Panthers -- but Kariya and Selanne scored 31 powerplay points each.
Eric Lindros only played 55 games, but 21 of his 59 points were powerplay points.
Jaromir Jagr had 29 powerplay points out of his 96 total points.
Sakic and Bure had similar ice time aside from shorthanded time; Sakic scored more powerplay points than Bure.
Owen Nolan had 18 powerplay goals and 33 powerplay points, by far the most powerplay-reliant player in the NHL.
Bure scored 20 powerplay points out of his 94 total points. He led the league in even strength points, Jagr aside, by a very wide margin -- Jagr scored 67 even strength points; Tony Amonte, ranked third, scored 59. Bure scored 72 with only two seconds more of average EV TOI per game than Joe Sakic and less than a minute more than Kariya, Jagr, and Selanne.
Bure ranked 43rd in the NHL in powerplay points, tied with Martin Rucinsky and Radek Bonk, and was tied with eight others for 11th in powerplay goals. The powerplay comprised a greater percentage of his teammates' scoring than his. Ray Whitney (22), Viktor Kozlov (21), and Robert Svehla (21) all had more PP points than him albeit fewer total points. Bure feasted on teams at even strength.
His scoring wasn't situational or reliant on the powerplay. More times than anyone else, he put other teams on their heels with the opening goal, scored the game-winning goals more times than anyone else, sealed the games better than anyone else, and was a crucial penalty killer for his team. He did most of his damage at even strength and did not require any situational assistance to be an extremely effective scorer.
No one else had the combination of versatility and game-breaking ability that season.
I believe it's entirely misleading to diminish Bure's effectiveness and impact that season by citing his empty net totals or by saying that his peers were unavailable to play.
His abilities and his prime were already compromised by the injury below, so his peers weren't the only ones to lose out.
Before the 1999-00 season, he had already been required to repair his knee twice (1995-96, 1998-99).
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CokenoPepsi
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vadim sharifijanov
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threads i'd like to see:
selanne vs. ovechkin
jagr vs. howe
messier vs. gretzky
a plague on all of your favourite players
selanne vs. ovechkin
jagr vs. howe
messier vs. gretzky
a plague on all of your favourite players
Just wanted to thank you for this post. I have some kids I have to show this to at work tomorrow. 90's hockey was the best period. I was to young to fully appreciate it but in a way glad I had the innocence I did to appreciate just the sheer amount of super stars
If we are applying some context like missed time to injuries or offensive support then OV does not win the Hart in 2013 and his Art Ross win is questionable. His 2010 #'s look not as impressive given their were three other Caps in the Top 20 scorers while the next leading scorer on the 00/01 Panthers was 167th in scoring. Bure outscored him by 250%.
I think we should let the numbers and awards recognition speak for themselves.
The Panther
Registered User
Just a note: As I already explained in the OP (and the thread title), the point is not to compare the overall careers of Bure and Ovechkin, since (as least as far the NHL is concerned) Ovechkin's is clearly better. This is already a foregone conclusion.
The matter at hand is simply comparing the two players at prime / peak / whatever level. Like, for example: if you could choose either a healthy Ovechkin in 2007 or whatever, or a healthy Bure in 1994 or whatever to join your team's playoff run, which would you take?
I have a feeling I would still take Ovechkin, but I think it is debatable and is pretty close.
The matter at hand is simply comparing the two players at prime / peak / whatever level. Like, for example: if you could choose either a healthy Ovechkin in 2007 or whatever, or a healthy Bure in 1994 or whatever to join your team's playoff run, which would you take?
I have a feeling I would still take Ovechkin, but I think it is debatable and is pretty close.
Plural
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Bure was pretty awesome player but often I see people thinking he's somewhat comparable to Selanne during their primes. Bure being slotted slightly ahead more often than not. But the difference between them is often described to be within preference. Is there really anyone thinking that at their peak/prime Selanne and Ovechkin are close enough to be debated? I love Selanne and would describe him as my all-time favorite player but I don't think there's a good case to be made that he's even contesting Ovechkin and we're talking about a historically great best on best tournament player.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
ENGs are positive. But they're also substantially less difficult than goals on goaltenders, as they merely require change in possession and an open pass to the skater furthest up the ice.
3 ENG - Two assists on ENG
5 ENG - One assist on ENG
1 ENG - Unassisted
Spacek (3)
Svehla (3)
Mellanby (2)
Kozlov
Niedermayer
Sillinger
The player who initially breaks the other team's possession or the player who makes the outlet pass have a more difficult job than the "closer" who needs to hit the same open net that fans shoot at during intermission to win teddy bears.
So if we have Bure beating 49 goaltenders, and Jagr beating 40 goaltenders in 11 fewer games, does being the king of ENGs put him on the same level as Alex Ovechkin? No. Best goal scorer in 2000, sure. But the statistical gap that led to his best finish in Hart voting needs context.
Hart Winners (GP in 1999-00)
1995: 55 GP
1996: 0 GP
1997: 35 GP
1998: 35 GP
1999: 63 GP
2001: 60 GP
2002: 30 GP
2003: 49 GP
2004: 56 GP
Bure had the statistical gap aided by ENGs. He had all of the surrounding Hart winners missing at least 19 games. He didn't have any teammates competing for attention. He was in his first full season on a new team.
And with all of that going for him, the voters were like "...Pronger?"
sr edler
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It’s interesting how someone described Ovi as the perfect NHL player, and that he wouldn’t work as well on open ice. He did have great wheels though, but it’s just something with him that feels a bit ”off” sometimes. I can’t really put a finger on what it is though.
I’ll say this though, if Bure’s knees didn’t crack as early as they did he could also have won 4 straight Richard’s with a lesser impressive overall game, i.e. 00–01 Bure. I think we can all agree the Bure who scored 59 goals in 00–01 weren’t really a top tier overall player.
Selänne isn’t far off either. He could really rack it up when on his game.
I’ll say this though, if Bure’s knees didn’t crack as early as they did he could also have won 4 straight Richard’s with a lesser impressive overall game, i.e. 00–01 Bure. I think we can all agree the Bure who scored 59 goals in 00–01 weren’t really a top tier overall player.
Selänne isn’t far off either. He could really rack it up when on his game.
sr edler
gold is not reality
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Bure missed a bunch of games too though. And we’re not comparing him with Jagr. Jagr was better than Ovechkin.
It’s not like Bure built a career on scoring ENGs. I know he scored a lot of goals on Myllys in the Olympics (which counts for half a empty netter) but he also had two hat-tricks on NHL goaler Patrick Roy.
By the way, he also missed a bunch of games in 1993–94 which resulted in Adam Graves getting more Hart recognition. I bet we can dig that old thread up from the dirt.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
By the way, he also missed a bunch of games in 1993–94 which resulted in Adam Graves getting more Hart recognition. I bet we can dig that old thread up from the dirt.
That's the real tragedy, isn't it? That we have to look to years like 1993-94 where Bure (0-0-2) finishes behind Graves (0-1-5) in a race to see who can get the most undeserved recognition on a ballot because Bure never received any relevant Hart support outside of 1999-00, whereas Ovechkin has five nominations for us to peruse.
Plural
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That's the thing, no matter how weak one things OV's competition was compared to Bure's, the sheer difference in NHLPA and media voting is way too substantial to overlook. Without checking, during OV's 12 years in the league he has to be 2nd in Hart votes overall. And if we all agree that fringe votes shouldn't count too much OV still has 7 seasons where he got more than few biased votes including a whopping 5 top-2 finishes. Three peating the Lindsay/Pearson is also significantly higher praise from his peers than Bure ever got. Overall offense OV has 3 seasons where he has to be considered better offensive player Bure ever was.
I just don't see how Bure could be reasonably argued on similar level no matter if we look at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 seasons.
I just don't see how Bure could be reasonably argued on similar level no matter if we look at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 seasons.
Plural
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Well 90's was kind of a star studded decade. Not saying it necessarily is objectively the most competitive decade among top-talent but it certainly had a lot of new stars breaking in and some of the 80's guys remained strong.
Blade Paradigm
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I hope that my emphasis on 5-on-6 differential and 4-on-6 differential wasn't lost in my post.
The ability for a team to score on an empty net with pressure coming down on them is rather difficult as shown in the following statistic that I call "GF at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6 vs GA at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6" or "extra attacker-empty net differential." I will calculate the differentials for all 28 teams below for the 1999-00 season:
(GF at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6 vs GA at 4-on-6 and 5-on-6)
St. Louis: 15
Florida: 10
San Jose: 7
Anaheim: 6
Philadelphia: 6
Dallas: 5
New Jersey: 5
Tampa Bay: 5
Pittsburgh: 5
Toronto: 3
Phoenix: 3
Washington: 3
Detroit: 2
Montreal: 2
Nashville: 2
New York Rangers: 2
Ottawa: 2
Los Angeles: 1
Vancouver: 1
Carolina: 0
Colorado: 0
Edmonton: 0
Boston: 0
Buffalo: -1
New York Islanders: -1
Chicago: -1
Atlanta: -2
Calgary: -3
Some teams scored several empty net goals, but allowed several goals against with the opposing net empty. Some teams scored very few but allowed very few. The President's Trophy winners, the St. Louis Blues, had the greatest positive differential with good work done by committee; the only reason the Florida Panthers are up at the top instead of down at the bottom is because of Bure's 9 EN insurance goals, and he also did a great job with his team to prevent goals from being scored against them with the opposing net empty. That's an important element as well, which goes hand-in-hand with his penalty-killing skill set. Again, he was the team's most reliable penalty killer, allowing fewer powerplay goals against per 60 than any other significant penalty killer except Ray Whitney. Bure was much more effective than either Rob Neidermayer or Ryan Johnson.
Furthermore, those multi-goal games, especially his hat tricks and the four-goal game, are evidence that he created the circumstances that required the other team to pull their goaltender; he was not opportunistic. He forced the opposition to pull their goaltender through dominance at even strength throughout the matches. If not for his three goals against Tampa Bay prior to the final minute of that match, the Lightning could have had a better result.
Also, as discussed on the previous page, the fact that Bure did not have an elite linemate was most certainly a hindrance. In the current NHL, we are already witnessing the effect of duos and the plight of Connor McDavid with his lack of support.
I would like to continue this discussion in another thread, as I feel that the content of my analysis could serve its own purpose rather than in a comparison with Ovechkin's peak.
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