Pavel Bure vs. Alex Ovechkin (prime years)

[The Panther]

I put the "prime years" on the title because it's clear by now that Ovechkin is going to have the greater career, and by far the greater career numbers. No doubt he will also deservedly be ranked higher in all-time player lists, and so on, partly for that reason.

However, I'm wondering what people think about Bure vs. Ovechkin if we just focus on each player's respective prime years.

Although he achieved a great deal and is in the Hall of Fame, etc., Bure still seems to me like a "what if" player who never really achieved as much as he could have, but for off-ice issues, injuries, and obscurity (in Florida... and Vancouver, also, if we're talking about the eastern Canada perspective). At his best, he was one of the most exciting players I've ever seen, and he very-nearly had four 60-goal seasons, two of them at the height of the dead-puck era (and one on a team that scored only 200 goals -- a ridiculous stat!). He also scored a lot of goals at the Olympics and in international play.

Ovechkin has more goals-titles and the Harts, which seems to indicate he was more able to inspire greatness in his team... but then again, it's actually Bure who led his NHL team to the Finals and it's Ovechkin's club that has choked every spring (not saying it's Ovechkin's fault).

Just wondering if anyone thinks they're comparable in their primes, or if anyone thinks Bure was at all superior when at his best?

Click to read more...

 

[JackSlater]

I can't see much of a case for Bure. Ovechkin's prime features a higher peak and he was far healthier. A fully healthy Bure may have equaled Ovechkin, but that player unfortunately didn't exist.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I'd say they're comparable during their absolute best few years, but Ovechkin could be a physical force, which give him a dimension that Bure lacked. Not to suggest Bure was soft... he wasn't built the same way and couldn't use his body to do some of the things Ovechkin did.

Also, Ovechkin had higher finishes in the scoring race. To what extent that had to with "softer" competition is arguable.

Edit: Ovechkin was healthier during his prime as well.

 

[Thenameless]

I like both players a lot. Primes are pretty close with maybe still a slight advantage to Ovechkin. He's generally considered to be one of the three top players (along with Crosby and Malkin) since he's come into the league. It's also a bit heavy to say that Bure led the Canucks to the Finals. He was their best offensive weapon and most exciting player for sure, but that team really came together during the 94 playoffs, receiving contributions from many unlikely sources. The leader of that team is universally considered to be Trevor Linden.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I can't see much of a case for Bure. Ovechkin's prime features a higher peak and he was far healthier. A fully healthy Bure may have equaled Ovechkin, but that player unfortunately didn't exist.

Yes, Ovie was healthier as well...

 

[DrDangles]

This debate was somewhat relevant like 7 years ago. Anybody the gives Bure a serious vote here is out to lunch. If we discuss each players' peak cases can at least be made either way.

I mean, you can't even consider Ovi's prime finished yet. He's one season removed from winning 4 Rockets in a row. Choose any 5 consecutive seasons throughout Ovi's career and they're all more impressive than Bure's entire career as far as hardware goes.

And this is coming from a huuuuuuge Bure fanboy.

 

[K Fleur]

I have a hard time believing there is an argument for Bure that has any real substance. Nostalgia is not substance.

 

[Ace of Hades]

I can't see much of a case for Bure. Ovechkin's prime features a higher peak and he was far healthier. A fully healthy Bure may have equaled Ovechkin, but that player unfortunately didn't exist.

Bure has the clear edge over Ovechkin in the playoffs as well.

Overall, I'll have to give it to Ovechkin though for better prime, based on feats.

 

[seventieslord]

I never say AINEC but Ovechkin AINEC.

 

[The Panther]

This debate was somewhat relevant like 7 years ago. Anybody the gives Bure a serious vote here is out to lunch. If we discuss each players' peak cases can at least be made either way.

That's what I'm trying to discuss.

 

[GlitchMarner]

That's what I'm trying to discuss.

Panther, I tend to think of peak as best season and/or best season + surrounding seasons if a player has a segment of his career that is clearly superior to the remainder. In Ovechkin's case, his peak would be from 2007-2010. Fedorov's peak was from '94-'96, Gilmour's ranged from '92-'94 etc.

I think of prime as basically the segment of a player's career between the time he breaks out and his decline. In Ovechkin's case, he basically entered his prime immediately and the end of it can be debated.

I'm not sure not everyone has the same definitions for prime and peak. Some may use the terms interchangeably.

In this case, I think we should compare Bure's best three or four seasons to Ovechkin's '08-'10 seasons.

 

[NewUser293223]

Came in to post Ovechkin, but prime for prime, it's...

Bure.

Two consecutive sixty-goal seasons, one hell of a playoffs followed by injuries and an obvious slump, then followed by a very impressive run of being an elite cherry picker on some horrible Panthers teams and the best goal scorer in the league. Even past his peak, he came this close to winning the scoring race.

He could only dream about playing with someone like Backstrom.

Ovechkin had three or four years of being an almost complete package and then lost his grip. Turned into an overrated one trick pony. Seriously, when was the last time you truly feared Ovechkin? 2010?

 

[Passchendaele]

Came in to post Ovechkin, but prime for prime, it's...

Bure.

Two consecutive sixty-goal seasons, one hell of a playoffs followed by injuries and an obvious slump, then followed by a very impressive run of being an elite cherry picker on some horrible Panthers teams and the best goal scorer in the league. Even past his peak, he came this close to winning the scoring race.

He could only dream about playing with someone like Backstrom.

Ovechkin had three or four years of being an almost complete package and then lost his grip. Turned into an overrated one trick pony. Seriously, when was the last time you truly feared Ovechkin? 2010?

Ovechkin had his best season with a rookie Backstrom and outscored everyone else on his team by 43+ points.

Regardless.. I don't think Bure would benefit much from playing with better players. This guy generated his scoring chances by himself. It's not like he was a cerebral sniper who positioned himself in the offensive zone.. he blew everyone else with his powerful stride and shot.

That's why playing on a brutal team like the Panthers didn't really affect his goal totals.

 

[NewUser293223]

Ovechkin had his best season with a rookie Backstrom and outscored everyone else on his team by 43+ points.

Regardless.. I don't think Bure would benefit much from playing with better players. This guy generated his scoring chances by himself. It's not like he was a cerebral sniper who positioned himself in the offensive zone.. he blew everyone else with his powerful stride and shot.

That's why playing on a brutal team like the Panthers didn't really affect his goal totals.

Not to nitpick, but WTF is "43+" points? It's 40+ or precisely 43, no?

Bure of late was a red-line coaster. As everyone else, he would most definitely have benefitted from playing with better teammates. But you're right than on his own, he was probably more dangerous than Ovie and that Ovechkin owned 07/08 more than Bure did any of his huge years. He did have more big years than Ovechkin though, that's why I would take him for prime.

 

[Passchendaele]

Ovechkin from 2005-2010 was just as good as Bure at creating offense by himself. That went away when his footspeed left him.

He pretty much had to re-invent himself to keep being effective at what he did.

 

[Breakers]

Bure Was more entertaining to watch.

 

[sr edler]

The problem with Ovi is he seems to get extended credit for 2007–2010. He hasn’t been that player for a while now. That player was better than Bure, but that player hasn’t been around for years. Prime Bure was better than 2011–2017 Ovi, easily. Peak Ovi just disappeared over night when he got that suspension from crushing Campbell and lost the scoring race to Henrik Sedin.

Three Presidents’ Trophies and no visit out of the second round, and no success with Russia in best on best Olympics, also looks bad. The point with hockey is not collecting personal awards.

 

[alko]

Bure was even more one-sided. There was lot of talk, that he is waiting in front to take the puck and shoot. His defense actually didn't exists. By Ovie you could at least see some hard checks. Bure? No way.

 

[sr edler]

Bure was even more one-sided. There was lot of talk, that he is waiting in front to take the puck and shoot. His defense actually didn't exists. By Ovie you could at least see some hard checks. Bure? No way.

No. People just talk a lot. Bure was not Jere Lehtinen, but he was not worse defensively than Ovechkin or any other high scoring winger like say Jagr or Selänne or anyone similar really. That’s just false. He was sound positionally. He could goal-suck sometimes, like most high scoring wingers of the 90s, but this notion that he built his legacy on cherry picking is just absurd and not worthy of the history board. He was also versatile and a PK mainstay scoring threath throughout his whole career, even in Florida on bad knees. Watch his shorthanded goal on Finland from the 1998 Olympics and ask yourself if Ovi scores that goal. The answer is ”most likely not” because he probably wouldn’t even had been on the ice.

 

[DDRhockey]

If we count international play in prime years it is Bure. How many times hasnt ovechkin let russia down?

 

[Rexor]

Bure was a lot smarter and mentally stronger. A better skater and with better hands. Of course Ovechkin has the edge when it comes to physical play and he's a lot more durable. A player born for the NHL, I don't think he'd become much of a legend if he had to stay on the big ice and as it stands, his international play has been nothing special anyway. Bure would've have been a superstar just about everywhere .

When I think of Bure, I think of the 1994 playoffs or the semi-finals game in Nagano. Ovechkin has none of these defining stories. Can you imagine Ovechkin scoring 5 goals at the Olympics semifinals? He's never been that kind of player. An all-time great NHL regular season goal-scorer, sure. A tad overrated even in this regard imo, as he was spending the majority of his prime in a period where there were no other pure goal-scorers besides him.

If I want a reliable goal-scoring machine for NHL regular season, I'm taking Ovechkin. If I have to take one of these two for a Game 7 or for a crucial international match , it would be Bure.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Bure was even more one-sided. There was lot of talk, that he is waiting in front to take the puck and shoot. His defense actually didn't exists. By Ovie you could at least see some hard checks. Bure? No way.

This is a reputation he developed in Florida. Plenty of work has been done in recent years to document his play earlier in his career.

In Vancouver, he was known more as an end-to-end player with a penchant for taking the puck out of his zone and starting rushes, whereas in Florida he started to look more for the outlet pass from teammates. It's difficult to say whether he should be criticized for this, as this is exactly how Wayne Gretzky generated so many breakaways -- playing high in the zone and sneaking past center when a teammate looked like he could get to the blue line to avoid a two-line pass.

I am in the midst of developing a Gretzky shift-by-shift package that highlights his tendencies, so the intricacies of his game are fresh in my mind. By modern standards, Gretzky played the game like a winger.



Ryan Walter commented on Bure in an episode of NHL Power Week in 1993 after Bure had already played 115 NHL games.

0:24:

Mike Emrick (narration): "Since his debut, Bure's posted 135 points in 115 games. But it's his total game that has won all the admiration."

Ryan Walter: "There's Pavelmania, there's no doubt. And he is a tremendous player, a great talent. He is the type of player that is a game breaker, but he's also a backchecker. He's got incredible speed and great hands. But, I think, the thing I've appreciated about Pavel the most is that he's a team guy."



He was no stranger to physicality with big checks and a strong sense of tenacity in his game.

When Gretzky talked about wanting to play with Bure in 1999, the NHL had not yet seen Bure play in Florida. He was still a Canuck, and the type of game he played in Vancouver was one that would have complemented Gretzky's style of play. Gretzky liked to lead the rush from the neutral zone or wait at the opposing blue line while his teammates tried to carry it through the neutral zone. Bure's style of play in Vancouver would have suited Gretzky nicely, as he excelled at starting rushes from his own zone.

 

[daver]

Strictly on offensive output, where would everyone rank their best seasons:

1. OV 07/08
2. Bure 99/00
3. OV 09/10
4. Bure 00/01
5/6. OV 08/09 -
5/6. Bure 93/94
7. Bure 97/98
8. OV 05/06
8. OV 12/13
9. Bure 92/93

Pretty darn close.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Alex Ovechkin has literally double the number of seasons as a top-10 scorer - whether you look at raw totals or per-game totals. The biggest criticism I can think to place on him is that he hasn't won a Hart Trophy in 4 years or been nominated in the last 2 years (the longest stretch of his 12-year career).

Pavel Bure with 9 ENGs boosting his numbers and injuries to 5 or 6 of the best players of his generation and a team that hadn't made the playoffs in years and no teammates to draw attention away from his "value" lands the only 1st/2nd-place Hart ballots of his entire career in 1999-00, while Ovechkin is a 3-time winner and 2-time runner-up.

Pavel Bure is an iconic player, but Alex Ovechkin is one of the best ever.

 

[MisterNoItAll]

It's Ovi.