Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[Matsun]

When it comes to offensive D-men I think the top 3 are all on their own tiers.
1 - Orr
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2 - Coffey
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3 - Karlsson
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4 - Not sure
5 - Not sure
6 - Not sure

Karlsson is about as close to Coffey as Coffey is to Orr on offense I think. Then the next player feels about the same distance from Karlsson but is not on his own tier like the top 3 are.

 

[Regal]

just funny that 45 points in 52 games and 16 points in 19 playoff games is considered bad production in an injury filled season. i think he had the highest corsi % in the league as well that season at 60 percent.

not to mention the team coming close to winning the cup.

It’s very good production obviously. It’s just not really different than what he did in Ottawa.

He did lead the league in CF% at 59.2%, and had a strong xGF% at 58.8%, but he gave up 33% more goals against than expected, which has been a common enough theme through his career to suggest that the xGF numbers aren’t accounting for something. So while his GF% was strong at 53.4%, it wasn’t otherworldly.

 

[PensandCaps]

And? I don’t get why being on a better team is all of a sudden automatic “he’s not as good as so and so who had to do it all himself”. Regardless of stats, just watching Coffey vs Karlsson enough for me to make up my mind

It's a pretty important part of production.

 

[wetcoast]

Actually, I believe that Paul Coffey had the best teammates of all time, historically, out of any player in the history of NHL.

This sounds like a summer thread but it's probably a player who played a short time on a dynasty like the Habs.....

 

[wetcoast]

That is...quite the PR spin

PR spin is really code for Bulls**t.

the facts speak for themselves Burns was the more productive player any way you slice it while the 2 were team mates in San Jose.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

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[Ben White]

When it comes to offensive D-men I think the top 3 are all on their own tiers.
1 - Orr
---
2 - Coffey
---
3 - Karlsson
---
4 - Not sure
5 - Not sure
6 - Not sure

Karlsson is about as close to Coffey as Coffey is to Orr on offense I think. Then the next player feels about the same distance from Karlsson but is not on his own tier like the top 3 are.

Sigh, this poll… I’ve yet to see any substantial arguments for Coffey being a tier above Karlsson offensively. Typical case where the narrative is more important than facts. “Eh… wait a minute… Coffey is way better than Karlsson… cause, cause… everyone knows that…”

 

[Ben White]

PR spin is really code for Bulls**t.

the facts speak for themselves Burns was the more productive player any way you slice it while the 2 were team mates in San Jose.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Sure, but I don’t know how big an achievement that was considering Karlsson’s injury situation during those seasons. And it doesn’t feel very important to discuss either. Karlsson has shown everyone which level he represents, and cemented that “norm level” last season I think so kind of pointless to discuss his injury riddled seasons at this point.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, but I don’t know how big an achievement that was considering Karlsson’s injury situation during those seasons. And it doesn’t feel very important to discuss either. Karlsson has shown everyone which level he represents, and cemented that “norm level” last season I think so kind of pointless to discuss his injury riddled season at this point.

I remeber getting riducled by some diehard Sens fans about his production not increasing on a better team and no doubt you will find the excuses when Karlsson doesn't have a monster 100 point season in Pittsburg next year...it's almost like some don't understand hockey and that there is only 1 puck on the ice at a time.

I have zero idea on how you can confuse a peak offense outlier season with a "norm Level".

Karlsson is a great all time offensive talent but posts like this really make most people cringe.

 

[wetcoast]

Sigh, this poll… I’ve yet to see any substantial arguments for Coffey being a tier above Karlsson offensively. Typical case where the narrative is more important than facts. “Eh… wait a minute… Coffey is way better than Karlsson… cause, cause… everyone knows that…”

Actually you got it ass backwards like usual the facts, ie statiscits support the notion that Coffey was the more consistent offensive performer yet you like to skip straight to the Karlsson narrative....

 

[Regal]

This sounds like a summer thread but it's probably a player who played a short time on a dynasty like the Habs.....

It actually probably helps to move around a lot like Coffey. But there’s probably some guys who played on a couple dynastys

 

[authentic]

Sigh, this poll… I’ve yet to see any substantial arguments for Coffey being a tier above Karlsson offensively. Typical case where the narrative is more important than facts. “Eh… wait a minute… Coffey is way better than Karlsson… cause, cause… everyone knows that…”

I can understand thinking Coffey was better but considering eras and linemates, Coffey pretty much having Gretzky or Lemieux for the first 11 seasons of his career then Fedorov and Yzerman on Detroit, the difference couldn't be greater compared to Karlsson's linemates. That makes a massive difference in help producing offense, so I can't really see how anyone puts Coffey in another tier.

 

[wetcoast]

It actually probably helps to move around a lot like Coffey. But there’s probably some guys who played on a couple dynastys

Moving around helps as a 29 year old Larry Murphy, who was having a decent career but by no means on a HHOF trajectory gets traded from Minny to the Pens then later plays for the dynamic late 90s Red Wings after being run out of town in Toronto as a 35 year old player.

his transaction history certainly isn't that of a guy in the HHOF but he is there and playing on some greats teams sure helped him.

From hockey reference,

Larry Murphy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Larry Murphy. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

October 18, 1983: Traded by the Los Angeles Kings to the Washington Capitals for Brian Engblom and Ken Houston.

March 7, 1989: Traded by the Washington Capitals with Mike Gartner to MIN (NHL) for Dino Ciccarelli and Bob Rouse.

December 11, 1990: Traded by MIN (NHL) with Peter Taglianetti to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Chris Dahlquist and Jim Johnson.

July 8, 1995: Traded by the Pittsburgh Penguins to the Toronto Maple Leafs for 2nd round draft pick in 1996 (later traded to New Jersey - New Jersey selected Josh DeWolf) and Dmitri Mironov.

March 18, 1997: Traded by the Toronto Maple Leafs to the Detroit Red Wings for unknown compensation.

 

[triggrman]

I can understand thinking Coffey was better but considering eras and linemates, Coffey pretty much having Gretzky or Lemieux for the first 11 seasons of his career then Fedorov and Yzerman on Detroit, the difference couldn't be greater compared to Karlsson's linemates. That makes a massive difference in help producing offense, so I can't really see how anyone puts Coffey in another tier.

For me, the fact that Coffey made great players better does it for me. Did Karlsson ever make players better? Any player? I know as a team San Jose got worse.

 

[Agent Zub]

for some reason half this board thinks karlsson playing injured is the real karlsson, and karlsson playing healthy and winning 3 Norris trophies is the fluke outlier.

such a transparent agenda lol

That is...quite the PR spin

what pr spin?

karlsson put on a contender not even playing his best put up some of the best advanced stats in the league and some of the best stats of his career with LESS effort.

it's the facts. imagine he played on a contender his entire career instead of one season.

 

[Agent Zub]

For me, the fact that Coffey made great players better does it for me. Did Karlsson ever make players better? Any player? I know as a team San Jose got worse.

oooof the only thing that makes karlsson special is his ability to elevate the play of his teammates. if you cant even see that basic thing ??

SJ getting worse had nothing to do with losing pavelski, Joe Thornton getting old, and losing all their depth after 15 years of being a contender, Couture and Vlasic dying, Hertl getting injured. it was all karlsson lol.


also this bs about there only being one puck, like exactly! there is only one puck and the better your team the more your team will have that one puck.

some of you have never touched a hockey stick or played any team sports and it shows. anyone who has ever played a team sports knows that its easier to play, take chances and put up points when you have better linemates.

 

[Voight]

Coffey AINEC... how is this even a poll question?

Pretty similar but Coffey played with much better teammates in an era where defence wasn't as important as it was during Karlsson's career. So Coffey was probably better for his era than Karlsson was for his and had the better career.

Ironic considering Karlsson is a black hole defensively.

Aside from that, Rod Langway won back to back Norris' because of his defensive play.

 

[triggrman]

oooof the only thing that makes karlsson special is his ability to elevate the play of his teammates. if you cant even see that basic thing ??

SJ getting worse had nothing to do with losing pavelski, Joe Thornton getting old, and losing all their depth after 15 years of being a contender, Couture and Vlasic dying, Hertl getting injured. it was all karlsson lol.


also this bs about there only being one puck, like exactly! there is only one puck and the better your team the more your team will have that one puck.

some of you have never touched a hockey stick or played any team sports and it shows. anyone who has ever played a team sports knows that its easier to play, take chances and put up points when you have better linemates.

dude, I've played defense for 35 years, coached and reffed hockey, so you can stop with the durr you don't know hockey because you never played BS. and instead, maybe try to site actual examples.

 

[Voight]

I think Coffey's 1984-1986 were pretty good years, which was (runner up + Norris + Norris).

+ scored 37 points in the playoffs one of this years; thats the highest non Gretzky/Lemieux total ever.

 

[Agent Zub]

dude, I've played defense for 35 years, coached and reffed hockey, so you can stop with the durr you don't know hockey because you never played BS. and instead, maybe try to site actual examples.

like i said if you can't identify that what makes karlsson special is his ability to make his teammates better and tilt the ice for his team.

you don't know what the f*** you are talking about.

and i remember how much you used to go on about how weber was sooooo much better than Karlsson, it biased you and you have no idea how to evaluate the players anymore.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think Karlsson. Coffey played with much better players.

 

[Ben White]

I remeber getting riducled by some diehard Sens fans about his production not increasing on a better team and no doubt you will find the excuses when Karlsson doesn't have a monster 100 point season in Pittsburg next year...it's almost like some don't understand hockey and that there is only 1 puck on the ice at a time.

I have zero idea on how you can confuse a peak offense outlier season with a "norm Level".

Karlsson is a great all time offensive talent but posts like this really make most people cringe.

Out to lunch musch? Karlsson was 4th in league scoring in 2016 and the league leader in assists (!), he was 10th in league scoring in 2012 (higher than last season) as a 21 y o, won the Norris in 2015 one season after a famous almost career ending achilles slice, yet most people believe he had his best season in the 2017 regular season + playoffs and had his highest level of play ever pre injury in 2013. And you call last season “an outlier career year”??

I say it again: This thread… THIS THREAD
On pace for goat territory in bad takes.

 

[armani]

Both are phenomenal players, Karlsson circa Matt Cooke injury looked even faster. Karlsson is a cornerstone type player, whether his style is your cup of tea or not, and has proven to be a performer with much, much poorer quality of teammates in both regular season and the playoffs, often leading his team in scoring as a defender.

 

[triggrman]

like i said if you can't identify that what makes karlsson special is his ability to make his teammates better and tilt the ice for his team.

you don't know what the f*** you are talking about.

and i remember how much you used to go on about how weber was sooooo much better than Karlsson, it biased you and you have no idea how to evaluate the players anymore.

Sure bud. Forgot you were a lapdog like Ben. Remember when you guys said he was the next Lidstrom, lol, that didn't happen. Not even close.

 

[Ben White]

Actually you got it ass backwards like usual the facts, ie statiscits support the notion that Coffey was the more consistent offensive performer yet you like to skip straight to the Karlsson narrative....

View attachment 744467

I never even said Karlsson is necessarily better. But there is zero evidence these two players don’t belong in the same tier offensively as many people here suggest.

 

[Voight]

Man these weaker team arguments are going to look really stupid this year if Karlsson doesn't outdo what he did last year now that he's on Pittsburgh but I'm sure there will be an excuse.

I can already see the excuses. "Hes 33, give him a break" "Sid & Geno are past their prime, it would be a different story if the trade happened a decade ago" "Sullivan doesn't know how to deploy him properly"