Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[bert]

Even if this was true (its absolutely not), doesn't mean EK is better.

Coffey was the best player on his team in 1995. He was the second best player on his team in 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1991, and arguably 1993.

Karlsson wouldn't be the best player on his team if he played with 99 or 66 either. Only 1 or 2 players in history would be.

Find a proper arguement in support of your player.

Coffee has never carried a team and organization the way Karlsson did or has. He has never had dominant all around stretches like Karlsson has had at both ends of the ice.

 

[Regal]

Coffee has never carried a team and organization the way Karlsson did or has. He has never had dominant all around stretches like Karlsson has had at both ends of the ice.

First part isn’t relevant to who is better and the second part just isn’t true. Coffey had stretches of all around dominance in the playoff with the Oilers and in the Canada Cup. Like Karlsson, his focus defensively could wane when games didn’t matter.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Coffee has never carried a team and organization the way Karlsson did or has. He has never had dominant all around stretches like Karlsson has had at both ends of the ice.

takes a lot of skill to carry a team to last place...

 

[Steven Toast]

Coffee has never carried a team and organization the way Karlsson did or has. He has never had dominant all around stretches like Karlsson has had at both ends of the ice.

Yes he has lol. EK hasn't carried and organization anywhere lol. Coffey is one of the best playoff performers ever.

And both ends of the ice? EK is one of the least effective defenders in the league.

Again, provide some substance to back your points please.

 

[Ben White]

They absolutely are not.

Top 5 seasons from each player, by raw totals and adjusted numbers.

Coffey raw totals:

48-90-138​

40-86-126​

37-84-121​

30-83-113​

29-74-103​

​

Karlsson raw totals:

25-75-101​

16-66-82​

19-59-78​

20-54-74​

17-54-71​

​

Coffey adjusted totals:

37-71-108​

31-69-100​

24-76-100​

29-67-96​

25-69-94​

​

Karlsson adjusted totals:

24-72-96​

18-74-92​

21-65-86​

23-59-82​

19-59-78​

​

There is a clear level of separation between the two in terms of offensive production. Coffey also has a far more impressive playoff career, and was also better defensively than EK (who is one of the least effective in the league).


Except EK is not in the same tier as any of these players...

Neither is Coffey

 

[Steven Toast]

Neither is Coffey

Debatable, but he is clearly a tier above Karlsson. His offensive production is clearly ahead, his defensive game was more reliable, and he had significantly more success in the postseason.

He also had a better aged 33 season than Karlssons aged 32 season.

 

[Ben White]

If you want to argue how relevant/useful it is to count leading league in assists - or how much it helps/hurts to have stronger teammates - fine, we can discuss this. And of course playing in Edmonton was helpful to Coffey.

But on your last post you were using Karlsson leading league in assists and Coffey not as some sort of statistical differentiator, while not recognizing that he should actually trail Coffey. Any sensible statistical counting usually excludes peak Lemieux/Gretzky from the equation because of how much of an outlier they are offensively.

Without Lemieux/Gretzky - it's advantage Coffey 3 to 1 vs Karlsson for leading league in assists.

How meaningful/valuable that is is up for debate.



I don't care about consecutive seasons for peak. Coffey just happened to have 3 consecutive great seasons, which is why I used the term consecutive. My point is best ~3 years I give the edge to Coffey. Better playoff peak - also Coffey.

Peak Karlsson is pretty good - Coffey was just better and had the better seasons. You can talk about 2017 playoffs for Karlsson all you want - obviously great - but Coffey 1985 playoffs is definitely better.

Maybe without any major injuries Karlsson could have put together a better career, with less dips, and matched/surpassed Coffey. Maybe. I don't think at their best they're very far off per se - but it doesn't change the fact that Coffey has the better peak, prime, career and playoff resume than Karlsson does.


Don't be too surprised. It's weird on HF - but anytime you talk about 90s players (Fedorov, Forsberg, Lindros, Lidstrom, Pronger, Hasek, etc) nostalsgia kicks in and they often get overrated.

Whenever you talk about 80s players - it seems like it's too far off and they often get underrated (Bourque, Coffey, Roy, etc).

Jesus Christ not if they play on your team and scores a big chunk of the goals you’re getting assists on

 

[Ben White]

They absolutely are not.

Top 5 seasons from each player, by raw totals and adjusted numbers.

Coffey raw totals:

48-90-138​

40-86-126​

37-84-121​

30-83-113​

29-74-103​

​

Karlsson raw totals:

25-75-101​

16-66-82​

19-59-78​

20-54-74​

17-54-71​

​

Coffey adjusted totals:

37-71-108​

31-69-100​

24-76-100​

29-67-96​

25-69-94​

​

Karlsson adjusted totals:

24-72-96​

18-74-92​

21-65-86​

23-59-82​

19-59-78​

​

There is a clear level of separation between the two in terms of offensive production. Coffey also has a far more impressive playoff career, and was also better defensively than EK (who is one of the least effective in the league).


Except EK is not in the same tier as any of these players...

Lol what?? How much context is it even possible to ignore? Not only does Coffey’s slightly, and I repeat: slightly, higher production in those seasons, have to be partly addressed to his MUCH better teams and MUCH better supporting cast but he also has A LOT more healthy seasons to choose from. So funny, and worrying, how people think players somehow play and produce in a vacuum without being affected by the circumstances around them, like at all. If Coffey’s and Karlsson’s situations were somewhat similar it could be useful to compare their top seasons numbers straight up, and even then there’s not a huge separation, but as I posted earlier EK vs #77 is as much an apples vs oranges comparison as it gets in terms of their respective situations.

It’s a minor miracle that Karlsson can be that close to Coffey in terms of top 5 seasons production. Coffey is the offensive Dman with the most beneficial situation to put up high point totals in the history of the NHL, and it’s not even particularly close. Playing with prime Gretzky, Kurri, Messier etc. etc. on arguably the best team in NHL history without a salary cap, fewer teams, much less even matchups both between the teams but also 1st line vs depth players etc. Then prime Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Stevens etc etc, then Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, I mean this discussion is just getting ridiculous at this point. Someone help me out here.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lol what?? How much context is it even possible to ignore? Not only does Coffey’s slightly, and I repeat: slightly, higher production in those seasons, have to be partly addressed to his MUCH better teams and MUCH better supporting cast but he also has A LOT more healthy seasons to choose from. So funny, and worrying, how people think players somehow play and produce in a vacuum without being affected by the circumstances around them, like at all. If Coffey’s and Karlsson’s situations were somewhat similar it could be useful to compare their top seasons numbers straight up, and even then there’s not a huge separation, but as I posted earlier EK vs #77 is as much an apples vs oranges comparison as it gets in terms of their respective situations.

I don’t understand how this is a knock against Coffey. You seem to be under the impression that he was basically a product of elite teams and just happened to remain healthy.

 

[Steven Toast]

Not only does Coffey’s slightly, and I repeat: slightly, higher production in those seasons

20 to 30 point difference isn't slight, its massive.

partly addressed to his MUCH better teams and MUCH better supporting cast but he also has A LOT more healthy seasons to choose from

Yep Coffey's teams were better. And he was a bigger part of them than EK is. Funny how all time great players make their teams great eh?

As to health, thats just a plus for Coffey. The best ability is availability.

I posted earlier EK vs #77 is as much an apples vs oranges comparison

Youre correct it is apples to oranges. One is an all time great player (Coffey), and the second best offensive defenseman in league history. The other is one of the better offensive defenders in the ap era.

Sorta like comparing Beliveau to Kovalchuk. Or Jagr to Stamkos.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lol what?? How much context is it even possible to ignore? Not only does Coffey’s slightly, and I repeat: slightly, higher production in those seasons, have to be partly addressed to his MUCH better teams and MUCH better supporting cast but he also has A LOT more healthy seasons to choose from. So funny, and worrying, how people think players somehow play and produce in a vacuum without being affected by the circumstances around them, like at all. If Coffey’s and Karlsson’s situations were somewhat similar it could be useful to compare their top seasons numbers straight up, and even then there’s not a huge separation, but as I posted earlier EK vs #77 is as much an apples vs oranges comparison as it gets in terms of their respective situations.

It’s a minor miracle that Karlsson can be that close to Coffey in terms of top 5 seasons production. Coffey is the offensive Dman with the most beneficial situation to put up high point totals in the history of the NHL, and it’s not even particularly close. Playing with prime Gretzky, Kurri, Messier etc. etc. on arguably the best team in NHL history without a salary cap, fewer teams, much less even matchups both between the teams but also 1st line vs depth players etc. Then prime Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Stevens etc etc, then Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, I mean this discussion is just getting ridiculous at this point. Someone help me out here.

You talk like EK wasn’t given the green light by coaches and staff to basically go all out offensively and have little to no defensive responsibilities. Was it because his team was that bad? Yes, but how is that a benefit for EK?…

 

[Ben White]

20 to 30 point difference isn't slight, its massive.

Yep Coffey's teams were better. And he was a bigger part of them than EK is. Funny how all time great players make their teams great eh?

As to health, thats just a plus for Coffey. The best ability is availability.


Youre correct it is apples to oranges. One is an all time great player (Coffey), and the second best offensive defenseman in league history. The other is one of the better offensive defenders in the ap era.

Sorta like comparing Beliveau to Kovalchuk. Or Jagr to Stamkos.

All these takes are so beyond stupid that any further correspondence with poster in question seems pointless

 

[Ben White]

I don’t understand how this is a knock against Coffey. You seem to be under the impression that he was basically a product of elite teams and just happened to remain healthy.

It’s not a knock on Coffey at all, just that the poll question is who “was better” not who “had the better resume”.

I’m not even saying Karlsson was necessarily better. Their respective situations are an apples vs oranges discussion and it all depends on how you interpret and value them. But all the “Coffey is a tier above Karlsson as a player” claims just doesn’t hold up and needs to be called out for.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It’s not a knock on Coffey at all, just that the poll question is who “was better” not who “had the better resume”.

I’m not even saying Karlsson was necessarily better. Their respective situations are an apples vs oranges discussion and it all depends on how you interpret and value them. But all the “Coffey is a tier above Karlsson as a player” claims just doesn’t hold up and needs to be called out for.

Well you are using these points as a knock against Coffey, all while trying to insist that his team, health, and era had more to do with his play than his actual abilities.

 

[Mr Kot]

Explain

 

[Ben White]

Well you are using these points as a knock against Coffey, all while trying to insist that his team, health, and era had more to do with his play than his actual abilities.

In what way? When did I downplay his abilities? I’m just stating the obvious that you can’t compare his stats straight up vs a player in a fundamentally different situation.

 

[Ben White]

You talk like EK wasn’t given the green light by coaches and staff to basically go all out offensively and have little to no defensive responsibilities. Was it because his team was that bad? Yes, but how is that a benefit for EK?…

Never in history has a player’s “green light” shown to have nearly the same impact on a player’s production, or over all play, trophies or team success (obviously) as playing on some of the most stacked teams in NHL history in a league with fewer teams and less parity, but you must know this already.

This discussion is sort of a an all time low out of everything I’ve seen on these boards. It almost seems religious to some people to not admit that Karlsson is even close to Coffey as a player. Interesting but kind of sad.

 

[GreatGonzo]

In what way? When did I downplay his abilities? I’m just stating the obvious that you can’t compare his stats straight up vs a player in a fundamentally different situation.

By bringing up era, health, and his team….

Never in history has a player’s “green light” shown to have nearly the same impact on a player’s production, or over all play, trophies or team success (obviously) as playing on some of the most stacked teams in NHL history in a league with fewer teams and less parity, but you must know this already.

This discussion is sort of a an all time low out of everything I’ve seen on these boards. It almost seems religious to some people to not admit that Karlsson is even close to Coffey as a player. Interesting but kind of sad.

I mean. You can disagree with it, doesn’t make it a “low” in this point of time. Coffey is an all time great defenseman and rightfully so.

 

[bert]

takes a lot of skill to carry a team to last place...

Still bitter about the sens beating Boston in 2017? Or have you mentally blocked out that series where he dominated and torched your team.

Yes he has lol. EK hasn't carried and organization anywhere lol. Coffey is one of the best playoff performers ever.

And both ends of the ice? EK is one of the least effective defenders in the league.

Again, provide some substance to back your points please.

You clearly have no ability to be objective here.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Hard to say really, but i am going to guess that maybe 10% or less of people who post here have seen coffee play, stats do not tell the whole story.

I didn't vote, but am not old enough to have watched Coffey. Was the guy essentially a forward who lined up at D?

 

[Ben White]

By bringing up era, health, and his team….

I mean. You can disagree with it, doesn’t make it a “low” in this point of time. Coffey is an all time great defenseman and rightfully so.

In what possible way is bringing up era, health and supporting cast, stating the obvious by pointing to the differences to EK’s situation, mean that I’m downplaying Coffey?

I never said Coffey wasn’t an all time great defenseman, I even didn’t say that Karlsson is better. I lean towards Karlsson in “most skilled/capable player” but it could go either way depending on how you evaluate them and what you value.

 

[PensandCaps]

Karlsson lead all Dmen in scoring by alot with a middling offensive Senators team during his prime. Imagine if Karlsson got to play with prime Crosby and McDavid in an 80s scoring environment.

Karlsson got similar results while having much much much less to work with, it's not even close in terms of difficulty that one had to deal with.

 

[avsfan9]

Pretty similar but Coffey played with much better teammates in an era where defence wasn't as important as it was during Karlsson's career. So Coffey was probably better for his era than Karlsson was for his and had the better career.

So…. Why did Karlsson not play defense?

 

[GreatGonzo]

In what possible way is bringing up era, health and supporting cast, stating the obvious by pointing to the differences to EK’s situation, mean that I’m downplaying Coffey.

I never said Coffey wasn’t an all time great defenseman, I even didn’t say that Karlsson is better. I lean towards Karlsson in “most skilled/capable player” but it could go either way depending on how you evaluate them and what you value

Because you make it sound like Coffey was a product of all that. That if you swap the two, EK is just as dominant as Coffey. It’s hard to suggest or say

Karlsson lead all Dmen in scoring by alot with a middling offensive Senators team during his prime. Imagine if Karlsson got to play with prime Crosby and McDavid in an 80s scoring environment.

Karlsson got similar results while having much much much less to work with, it's not even close in terms of difficulty that one had to deal with

similar results? How so?..

 

[Ratbath]

He “leans” toward Karlsson…