Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[PensandCaps]

From 1990 to 1992, Lemieux missed a lot of games. We can look at how Coffey did in the games with and without #66:

- With Lemieux: 127 games, 35 G, 124 A, 159 pts (1.25 PPG)
- Without #66: 83 games, 27 G, 73 A, 101 pts (1.22 PPG)

Lemieux didn't have a big impact on Coffey's production, at least during this period. Coffey averaged 103 points per 82 games in the games that Lemieux played, and 100 points per 82 games in the games that Lemieux missed.

Granted, Coffey wouldn't have scored 138 points without Gretzky or Lemieux. But the impact that they had on his production shouldn't be exaggerated either.

Yah, even if you take away 99 and 66, Coffey still has had much much more help.

 

[Ben White]

Because you make it sound like Coffey was a product of all that. That if you swap the two, EK is just as dominant as Coffey. It’s hard to suggest or say

Isn’t that exactly what I said? That it’s hard to suggest or say anything because how different their situations were. But yeah I don’t really know how you can argue against that Karlsson would have a better career playing on those teams, being wore healthy in an era where power house teams had an even bigger advantage, while Coffey would likely have a lesser career in Karlsson’s situation… That’s not downplaying Coffey, it’s just very unlikely that wouldn’t be the case.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Isn’t that exactly what I said? That it’s hard to suggest or say anything because how different their situations were. But yeah I don’t really know how you can argue against that Karlsson would have a better career playing on those teams, being wore healthy in an era where power house teams had an even bigger advantage, while Coffey would likely have a lesser career in Karlsson’s situation… That’s not downplaying Coffey, it’s just very unlikely that wouldn’t be the case.

Anyone would have a better career. Doesn’t mean Coffey was a product of it.

 

[dukeofjive]

I didn't vote, but am not old enough to have watched Coffey. Was the guy essentially a forward who lined up at D?

My dad called him the rover, he was so fast, him and gretzky would skate in circles around the other teams, he would skate up the middle through all lines and do a blind back pass that usualy ended up in the back of the net.

Epic edge game, smooth and fast skater, silky hands, and that joker smile of is after edmonton scored a goal.

 

[ManofSteel55]

lol - talk about arguing in bad faith...

True Karlsson led the league in assists once and Coffey didn't - but Coffey did finish beyind #2 in league behind peak Gretzky twice - and #3 beyind Gretzky/Lemieux once.

If anything - that's actually advantage Coffey with any amount of context...

I dunno. If the two guys lapping the league in points are on his line, of course he will roll in the points.

And I didn't think it needed to be said, but unless you're Orr and Howe, no one would be the "top dog" playing with prime Lemieux and Gretzky.

Nobody other than Gretzky is top dog while playing with Gretzky.

 

[Dingo]

Even if this was true (its absolutely not), doesn't mean EK is better.

Coffey was the best player on his team in 1995. He was the second best player on his team in 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1991, and arguably 1993.

Karlsson wouldn't be the best player on his team if he played with 99 or 66 either. Only 1 or 2 players in history would be.

Find a proper arguement in support of your player.

i think this goes both ways

Karlsson wouldnt have been the best player playing with either of those, however, he would have produced more, unless someone wants to boldly claim that those two had no affect on their teammates numbers.

Likewise, Coffey would have been the best player on any Senators or Sharks team that Karlsson played on, but would not have produced as much as with the Oilers or Pens. And, no need to bring era into this, im talking adjusted.

I think these two players were very similar, but in very dissimilar, even opposite situations. And Coffey was healthy while Erik was not.

 

[wetcoast]

All these takes are so beyond stupid that any further correspondence with poster in question seems pointless

I have a feeling that many people are thinking about this..........about your obsession with Karlsson.

 

[wetcoast]

Yah, even if you take away 99 and 66, Coffey still has had much much more help.

Not really any more help than Karlsson did in San Jose for several seasons you really need to go back and look again.

Also it's a large enough game sample to draw some strong arguments from and this was prime Mario, the whole Karlsson was saddled with extremely weak teams is just garbage and the post you are quoting really indicates and supports that Coffey was on another level that Karlsson simply wasn't on.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

People keep throwing out the 'only if he had more help' line but when Karlsson DID have more help he was outscored by Burns

Folks forget there's only one puck and only so many points to go around, it wasn't THAT long ago that EK went to San Jose and was supposed to get a yearly 90 points with Burns on a contender and we saw that he wasn't able to go nuclear on points until he was allowed to give f***all about defense playing whatever minutes he wanted on a team that wasn't playing meaningful hockey after Halloween.

Hell EK might be the more skilled player even but what Coffey was able to do while playing meaningful hockey year in and year out for so long is ahead by a clear margin.

 

[Toby91ca]

Yah, even if you take away 99 and 66, Coffey still has had much much more help.

And? I don’t get why being on a better team is all of a sudden automatic “he’s not as good as so and so who had to do it all himself”. Regardless of stats, just watching Coffey vs Karlsson enough for me to make up my mind

 

[ijuka]

I find it interesting that despite being surrounded by HHOF talent and almost never being the best player on his team, he still has a better Hart record than Karlsson and was just short of being a finalist twice.

You'd think all this HHOF talent would take away the votes and not allow him to sniff being a finalist to a trophy that's historically biased against defenseman.

And again, one of those seasons was 1994-95 and its fair to say he was clearly the best player on that team (at least in the regular season). It was arguably a top 3 season in his career.

In general, I always find the teammate arguments overexaggerated, especially for elite players that have shown time and time again that they can produce at elite levels.

We're also talking about a notable gap in how long they were elite for when comparing Coffey and Karlsson.

Well, has Draisaitl been a Hart finalist? Yes? Oh, he even won the hart trophy.

Why do you assume that playing with bad teammates makes it easier to receive Hart votes than playing with good teammates?

Karlsson's played all his career on mediocre to decent teams, while Coffey played on all star lineups almost his entire career. Actually, I believe that Paul Coffey had the best teammates of all time, historically, out of any player in the history of NHL.

 

[hamzarocks]

Only one is good enough to have a memorial award names after them while being alive

 

[Agent Zub]

If Coffey only played on a contender for one year his entire career and with no hall of famer line mate to take the pressure off him and picked up two career/skating altering injuries in the middle of his prime .

And if Karlsson spent his entire career playing with some of the best teams in hockey and with some of the best players ever.

Does anything change?

 

[Agent Zub]

People keep throwing out the 'only if he had more help' line but when Karlsson DID have more help he was outscored by Burns

Folks forget there's only one puck and only so many points to go around, it wasn't THAT long ago that EK went to San Jose and was supposed to get a yearly 90 points with Burns on a contender and we saw that he wasn't able to go nuclear on points until he was allowed to give f***all about defense playing whatever minutes he wanted on a team that wasn't playing meaningful hockey after Halloween.

Hell EK might be the more skilled player even but what Coffey was able to do while playing meaningful hockey year in and year out for so long is ahead by a clear margin.

what are you talking about lol.

Karlsson had 25 points in 15 games that year before he got injured, he was setting records and his pairing with Dillion was the most dominant in hockey, and he came back early from injury and went near PPG in the playoffs while barely being able to move.

and Burns ended the season with a career high in points that season.




but yea a lot easier to just make shit up haha

 

[Regal]

what are you talking about lol.

Karlsson had 25 points in 15 games that year before he got injured, he was setting records and his pairing with Dillion was the most dominant in hockey, and he came back early from injury and went near PPG in the playoffs while barely being able to move.

and Burns ended the season with a career high in points that season.




but yea a lot easier to just make shit up haha

The idea that he did worse with a better team was always nonsense because he didn’t even play a full year before the team and his health went downhill, but man the focus on small samples with Karlsson is something else. Yea he might have taken some time to settle in, but he had 45 in 52 before he was injured. A hot streak toward the end of that sample is just that.

 

[Agent Zub]

The idea that he did worse with a better team was always nonsense because he didn’t even play a full year before the team and his health went downhill, but man the focus on small samples with Karlsson is something else. Yea he might have taken some time to settle in, but he had 45 in 52 before he was injured. A hot streak toward the end of that sample is just that.

just funny that 45 points in 52 games and 16 points in 19 playoff games is considered bad production in an injury filled season. i think he had the highest corsi % in the league as well that season at 60 percent.

not to mention the team coming close to winning the cup.

 

[ole ole]

I didn't vote, but am not old enough to have watched Coffey. Was the guy essentially a forward who lined up at D?

You just described Karlsson.

 

[ole ole]

If Coffey only played on a contender for one year his entire career and with no hall of famer line mate to take the pressure off him and picked up two career/skating altering injuries in the middle of his prime .

And if Karlsson spent his entire career playing with some of the best teams in hockey and with some of the best players ever.

Does anything change?

Sure things would change? How much, who knows.
But i believe the better player was Coffey.

 

[FinLurker]

If we are glamoring good players from bad teams, then Wilf Paiement, Dennis Maruk, Dale Hawerchuck and Darryl Sittler would be better than they are perceived today. And old Montreal Canadiens players would be just products of very good team. Surely Hawerchuck would be better than Lafleur when you consider the teams they played. Ron Francis probably would be quite high on the lists too.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

what are you talking about lol.

Karlsson had 25 points in 15 games that year before he got injured, he was setting records and his pairing with Dillion was the most dominant in hockey, and he came back early from injury and went near PPG in the playoffs while barely being able to move.

and Burns ended the season with a career high in points that season.




but yea a lot easier to just make shit up haha

You didn't even respond to what I said re: Burns, and it happened more than once.

But yes, let's take another spin to alibi city, he's got a career full of em, you're only further illustrating the point.

 

[Agent Zub]

You didn't even respond to what I said re: Burns, and it happened more than once.

But yes, let's take another spin to alibi city, he's got a career full of em, you're only further illustrating the point.

what do you mean re: Burns?

Both Karlsson and Burns were producing that year. Karlsson set an NHL record that year with one of his most productive stretches of his career.

We saw what happened when Karlsson got more help.

60 percent corsi, NHL record, and game 6 of the WCF. in a messed up year filled with injuries and a start of only 1 point in his first 13 games of the season.

The whole team was a wagon. Two PPG D on separate pairs, and three lines that could score.

Again wtf are you going on about?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

what do you mean re: Burns?

Both Karlsson and Burns were producing that year. Karlsson set an NHL record that year with one of his most productive stretches of his career.

We saw what happened when Karlsson got more help.

60 percent corsi, NHL record, and game 6 of the WCF. in a messed up year filled with injuries and a start of only 1 point in his first 13 games of the season.

The whole team was a wagon. Two PPG D on separate pairs, and three lines that could score.

Again wtf are you going on about?

The point was all the complaints are about he's never had any help and that Coffey is just lucky to be surrounded by great players and if only Karlsson had the same support he'd be scoring 200 points

Well, he did--and on the Sharks he didn't even stand out over another dman. He was outscored and outplayed by Burns in both regular season and playoffs every single year he was in SJ, and was behind the forwards regularly, as well.

When he's not just a big fish in a small pond, Karlsson blends in more. That's the point. This idea that given Coffey's support he'd just run off in a class of his own is unsupportable, especially given what we know about his defense and PP production.

And to be clear that doesn't diminish EK as a player. It's just what happens when you have to play more meaningful hockey--things tighten up.

 

[Agent Zub]

The point was all the complaints are about he's never had any help and that Coffey is just lucky to be surrounded by great players and if only Karlsson had the same support he'd be scoring 200 points

Well, he did--and on the Sharks he didn't even stand out over another dman. He was outscored and outplayed by Burns in both regular season and playoffs every single year he was in SJ, and was behind the forwards regularly, as well.

When he's not just a big fish in a small pond, Karlsson blends in more. That's the point. This idea that given Coffey's support he'd just run off in a class of his own is unsupportable, especially given what we know about his defense and PP production.

And to be clear that doesn't diminish EK as a player. It's just what happens when you have to play more meaningful hockey--things tighten up.

Karlsson 5V5 with Dillion that season

61.57% CF
62.16% GF
3.64 GF/60
2.21 GA/60
9.54 oiSH%
1.008 PDO

some blending in.

team almost won the cup. karlsson set a points record and made it look easy, yada yada. and it wasn't even karlsson at his best but he put up some of the best stats of his career and was way better than Burns.

wtf are you going on about? are you actually trying to argue Burns is better than Karlsson or something?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Coffey was better both ways

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Karlsson 5V5 with Dillion that season

61.57% CF
62.16% GF
3.64 GF/60
2.21 GA/60
9.54 oiSH%
1.008 PDO

some blending in.

team almost won the cup. karlsson set a points record and made it look easy, yada yada. and it wasn't even karlsson at his best but he put up some of the best stats of his career and was way better than Burns.

wtf are you going on about? are you actually trying to argue Burns is better than Karlsson or something?

That is...quite the PR spin