Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part VII: Eliitti! - Mod Warning Post #79

[Kaako Kappo]

IIRC, Laine's first game he played with Little he scored a hat trick vs Dallas. Then Maurice was like "yeah they complement each other amazingly, it was such a brilliant idea by me to put them two together" and ever since then, the pair's been hot garbage but Maurice just can't admit this mistake.

Swap Wheeler and Laine and I'd like these lines.

Should try Perreault-Petan-Armia as the third line when French Fries is healthy.

Wrong. He got his hatties with Scheif

 

[ps241]

Neither have Dano Petan or Lowry.

Copp has 1 assist
Armia has 1 goal just like Tanev

Yea the bottom six has sucked......Christ they are actually making Tanev look like an option.

On a positive note I am expecting the best game of the year for the Jets.

PS if Laine actually needs a top 10 level NHL centre to produce we are doomed. His shot attempt volumes are fine it will come FFS. At least he isn’t stuck with Matt Hyman.

 

[ps241]

+/- is a very, very poor way to judge any player.

Laine will be fine - the whole team is not having a great start to the season.

Laine’s shot attempts are fine so far this season. This is what happens with goal scorers, there is always an ebb and flow. As far as line blending it’s inevitable he spends time with both our top centres this season.

It must be very stressful to live and die by Patrik Laine’s minute by minute scoring production?

 

[Asiantuntija]

PS if Laine actually needs a top 10 level NHL centre to produce we are doomed. His shot attempt volumes are fine it will come FFS. At least he isn’t stuck with Matt Hyman.

I think he will be fine if he gets Top 50 with vision. Problem is absolutely trash chemistry & vision between the Laine & Little. Not the level of players. Just look at their game and you can see that anything doesn't match. One of the worst duos i've ever seen at this level.

 

[ps241]

I think he will be fine if he gets Top 50 with vision. Problem is absolutely trash chemistry & vision between the Laine & Little. Not the level of players.

Then he needs to rise above it and play his way through it. That is what I expect from one of the top young players in the league. As I said his shooting volumes are good so far and that is what scorers need, It will come.

 

[grieves]

Yea the bottom six has sucked......Christ they are actually making Tanev look like an option.

On a positive note I am expecting the best game of the year for the Jets.

PS if Laine actually needs a top 10 level NHL centre to produce we are doomed. His shot attempt volumes are fine it will come FFS. At least he isn’t stuck with Matt Hyman.

Laine is 19yo. I thought us Finns have high expectations but seriously expecting a 19yo teenager who has not even played one full seasons worth of NHL games to start carrying lines and producing on his own. Where was Scheifele when he was Laine's age? As I understand he was not even in the same league, literally.

The point is that we know what kind of damage Scheif + Laine combo can do. I'm sure Laine can do a lot better with a lot of different players in the future, but why just throw him off the deep end for no reason? The point is that the team should use Laine where he is most valuable right now. This will not only help the team, but it will help Laine have some confidence. There is a lot of pressure on the kid and I fear he is being mishandled. He will deliver the goods, but for crying out loud just let him play a little bit in the NHL first.

 

[ijuka]

Wrong. He got his hatties with Scheif

Yeah, I think it was the St Louis game that I was thinking of. Weird, it wasn't even that amazing. Am I thinking of the wrong presser?


Also, it's not the quality of the center but the chemistry. As already mentioned, Laine has good chemistry with Scheifele and almost none with Little. Laine/Little scored ridiculously much worse than Laine/Scheifele did, and Scheifele/Wheeler far, far worse than Scheifele/Laine did. Little also has some actual chemistry with Wheeler. Really, if it was a hypothetical situation like "he needs to play with McDavid to do well" that'd be one thing. But the player's literally on the team.

I just don't get why we'd go with something that's got a track record of being horrible(LLE) instead of something that's got a track record of being amazing(x-Scheifele-Laine).

 

[Narow]

His shooting percentage normalized

Scheifele and ehlers are still shooting 20%+

Besides he is only averagig roughly 3 shot per game...not enough at all. And that is with 1pp. Pretty terrible

 

[Narow]

IIRC, Laine's first game he played with Little he scored a hat trick vs Dallas. Then Maurice was like "yeah they complement each other amazingly, it was such a brilliant idea by me to put them two together" and ever since then, the pair's been hot garbage but Maurice just can't admit this mistake.

Swap Wheeler and Laine and I'd like these lines.

Should try Perreault-Petan-Armia as the third line when French Fries is healthy.

Are you sure? I thought all 3 hatties was with scheif.

Yep just checked none of the hatties was with little.

 

[ps241]

Laine is 19yo. I thought us Finns have high expectations but seriously expecting a 19yo teenager who has not even played one full seasons worth of NHL games to start carrying lines and producing on his own. Where was Scheifele when he was Laine's age? As I understand he was not even in the same league, literally.

The point is that we know what kind of damage Scheif + Laine combo can do. I'm sure Laine can do a lot better with a lot of different players in the future, but why just throw him off the deep end for no reason? The point is that the team should use Laine where he is most valuable right now. This will not only help the team, but it will help Laine have some confidence. There is a lot of pressure on the kid and I fear he is being mishandled. He will deliver the goods, but for crying out loud just let him play a little bit in the NHL first.

I am not going to defend Maurice because he’s an idiot. Yes I expect Laine to be able to produce with Little and Ehlers that is far from a death sentence. He has the talent he just needs a couple to go in.

 

[ijuka]

Laine's still had quite a few nice chances. They've just been missing rather than getting saved. Also, he did hit the post once.

As a whole though, I agree that he's looked worse than last season. The confidence and freedom doesn't seem to be there. Or maybe Maurice wants to contain him more.

 

[grieves]

I am not going to defend Maurice because he’s an idiot. Yes I expect Laine to be able to produce with Little and Ehlers that is far from a death sentence. He has the talent he just needs a couple to go in.

I expect that too, but I would not make it a serious expectation until a few years from now. Their chemistry is not there, and it's not because Little is a bad player, it is because they just don't have chemistry. So why force it just because "Laine needs to produce away from Scheifele". It just seems like a worthless expectation that serves no-one.

 

[ijuka]

I am not going to defend Maurice because he’s an idiot. Yes I expect Laine to be able to produce with Little and Ehlers that is far from a death sentence. He has the talent he just needs a couple to go in.

It's not really about the amount of talent, the line just doesn't work. It was a terrible, failed experiment last season. Absolutely putrid. Some line combinations just do not work at all, regardless of how skilled the players actually are.

We come back to the point of "why try something that's been proven to not work rather than something that's been proven to work?".

 

[ps241]

His shooting percentage normalized

Scheifele and ehlers are still shooting 20%+

Besides he is only averagig roughly 3 shot per game...not enough at all. And that is with 1pp. Pretty terrible

I saw this tweet yesterday from Artic ice. Through 5 games Laine ranked 5th in the NHL in 5 on 5 shot attempts with 31 but just 14 have been on net.

I take that as a positive sign.

 

[Ippenator]

+/- is a very, very poor way to judge any player.

Laine will be fine - the whole team is not having a great start to the season.

No one will be fine until Maurice is fired...

 

[Narow]

I saw this tweet yesterday from Artic ice. Through 5 games Laine ranked 5th in the NHL in 5 on 5 shot attempts with 31 but just 14 have been on net.

I take that as a positive sign.

It sure is. It is more the pp shots im worried about.

He still needs to move closer to the net in my opinion. Here is his shotmap.

Sofar it seems defenders manage to keep him on the outside for most of these shots.

Heres how this compares to some of the leaders in even strength goals (didnt find strictly 5v5).

Ovi

Kutcherov

Ehlers

So those are some wingers. Looks like the 2 jet guys have issues getting shots of in close.. maybe its maurice game plan to take shots from the outside anf have someone screening in front? Anyways a goalscoring center.

Matthews

I hope laine get more shots of closer to the net (a good thing last game).

Dont know when these shot maps updated the last time either.

 

[avgard]

im here. listen. team is a mess, organisation is not thinkers. organisation is not working. laine is frustrated having to be with Little. there is no playing with Little. with Little he dont get to score huge amount of Points and goals he was expecting. it dont work. Little is not good. organisation whole of is a mess. they not doing things right. listen. they give Little huge contract lots of Money. Little is small and weak. then some armia is stuck balancing in/out of team . this is so sick. armia is big, talanted. would make huge amount of Points if given icetime and trust. he is not doing so much at the time. MUST HE? WOULD HE? he is also frustrated. having been treated bad in this organisation! 16th 1st round pick!!! having to play non5vs icetime. ONE MAN ARMIA!!! scoring all his goals from PK, PK is from skill right? he is a bit lazy from frustration, he dont wanna do so much cos he dont earn so much either., hand in hand RIGHT!!??? something is wrong in this boy if this boy sign Another contract here next time!!! boy scoring goals in PK like workers pick bananas from rubberbandtable ans coach deneying him!!! cant play defensce, having no skill for offence? he does sometimes show his skill, but dont expext so much of him due to his small Money he is earning and team treatment of him. last game i tell you one thing , one time him at ice what i saw that should if coach have Eyes give him keerole of sort for offensive. alright...he skates inside zoun with puck fools some players and then serves puck for great scoring chanche but his mate misses scoring goal on it, then seconds later pucks is at armia again he losts it but immeadeately at corner pushes with his superlong stick and gets the puck back and Winnipeg continue wth pressure at offensive zound. this kind of play by him is unseen by other players in this team. but coach is blind, organisation is blind.

buff playing team is loosing, then buff is away and team looks better, tighter, more flow in game, then buff is back and team wins first game by very luck, but the next game loose again clearly. team have signed bad players to big contracts despite no talent in these players. then some big, talented first rounder gets to play fourth line or sitting out of game. and while he is playing he only sort of play PK and scoring goals there from like rubberbandtable picking stuff. and organisation lets this happen, time after time. there is so much very sick at this team going on.

then a supersupertalent of laine comes in and now organisation and coach is holding him back , giving him no good players around him and holding him back in all kind of way. in PP he must play fulltime. at today when he is at ice on PP he goes in zoun then some Wheeler shoots instantly puck gets cleared and laine goes to bench. he rarely gets the puck at all. give him the 2 min to play there so there is time to have a chanche to get the puck!

laine MUST play in first line and get huge amount of icetime!!! 25 min minimum!!!

 

[ps241]

I posted this in the Laine thread.

I saw this tweet yesterday from Artic ice. Through 5 games Laine ranked 5th in the NHL in 5 on 5 shot attempts with 31 but just 14 have been on net.

Patrik was getting his looks with MP and Little chemistry was not a problem. If it proves to be an issue with Ehlers Little and Laine this season then the blender will come especially if Connor Wheeler and Scheifele don’t get On a roll.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

Not sure how Little and Laing have no chemistry together. They have been our best duo on a few nights. Posted respectable Possession numbers and decent point totals.

Those who think Laing and Chef are some kind of magic duo somehow completely forget how much time those two spent defending in their own end and not scoring. I could give three stats that would show you "what" kind of chemistry they had together. XG, Corsi, and sh%. I won't because they get casually disregarded as meaningless time and time again.

Perhaps this year would be different but outside of a couple home games and at least 1 of those against the Dallas stars AHL team. Those 2 did not play that well together or at least all the data points to them getting outscored significantly over a large sample size.

We remember the hat trick against an AHL level squad but completely forget the 2 full periods in Boston where they did not register a single shot attempt for 2 strait periods.

If we had MP to play with them both I'd be a lot more comfortable letting them go but at the moment we only got Ehlers and he was the linemate who those 2 stunk with last season.

PoMo may be an idiot by you but hard pressed to explain why using his management of Laine or which linemates he plays with.

Also, Little is a top 40C in the league. If Laine can't play and produce with him he's not a very special player...... but he's been absolutely fine with him so it shouldn't be a worry.

 

[avgard]

atps241

i dont understand your Writing. please read my post above. there is the truth. thank you. no need to Deep in some conspiration or so. its not a rocket science thing this. works/works not. also best must with best play. if laine is not happy the organisation fire the coach. IF HEALHY ORGANISATION thanks

avgard hockeyprofessor

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

He looks better around the boards this year. He forechecked the puck back multiple times and looks a lot stronger protecting the puck.

 

[grieves]

Not sure how Little and Laing have no chemistry together. They have been our best duo on a few nights. Posted respectable Possession numbers and decent point totals.

Those who think Laing and Chef are some kind of magic duo somehow completely forget how much time those two spent defending in their own end and not scoring. I could give three stats that would show you "what" kind of chemistry they had together. XG, Corsi, and sh%. I won't because they get casually disregarded as meaningless time and time again.

Perhaps this year would be different but outside of a couple home games and at least 1 of those against the Dallas stars AHL team. Those 2 did not play that well together or at least all the data points to them getting outscored significantly over a large sample size.

We remember the hat trick against an AHL level squad but completely forget the 2 full periods in Boston where they did not register a single shot attempt for 2 strait periods.

If we had MP to play with them both I'd be a lot more conformable letting them go but at the moment we only got Ehlers and he was the linemate who those 2 stunk with last season.

PoMo may be an idiot by you be hard pressed to explain why using his management of Laine or which linemates he plays with.

Also, Little is a top 40C in the league. If Laine can't play and produce with him he's not a very special player...... but he's been absolutely fine with him so it shouldn't be a worry.

You may well be right, but basing that on xGoals, Corsi, and sh% is only looking at the quantitative side, not the qualitative side. Basically ignoring what we are seeing on the ice. Just put them with a player that drives possession and gets them the puck. Put Hyman in there. I'm not saying they did not have bad games, because they definitely did.

If it really is the case that Laine and Scheif are bad together ("The best duo in the NHL" articles say otherwise), there is no need to keep them together. But the fact that Maurice won't even have a look at them. They were separated after a few bad games and NEVER saw each other again basically. That is just strange as all hell. Especially when there is good reason to believe that Laine may do a lot better on the defensive side. These stats you are referring to include Laine being as an 18yo rookie in the wrong-sized rink. Naturally Laine is improving rapidly and will not have all the same characteristics as last season.

But I also have no problem seeing more games with Laine and Little if it must be. Hopefully the team will stop sucking soon in any case. It is easier not to complain if the team is not a complete train-wreck. I just have a very strong feeling that ELL is going to be terribad. Don't mind being wrong about that.

And nothing indicates that Laine is not producing with Little. He has 4 points in 6 games. There is just so much potential left unlocked IMO.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Its not like Little and Laine is the first combination of good players who just dont mesh. The difference is that other coaches change shit when its not working

 

[Narow]

I expect that too, but I would not make it a serious expectation until a few years from now. Their chemistry is not there, and it's not because Little is a bad player, it is because they just don't have chemistry. So why force it just because "Laine needs to produce away from Scheifele". It just seems like a worthless expectation that serves no-one.

Scheifele is like 5 years older than laine... id rather have laine learn to produce away from scheifele now than have to deal with it when he is 28 and scheifele is declining badly (most likely).

What if for whatever reason laine or scheifele gets traded or wont play together?

A need forces development, getting out of the comfort zone.

Laine will most likely benefit not playing with scheifele too much as that will force him to develope his strengths and weaknesses.


Note im not saying that little should be his linemate all the time either.

Id like to see what he could do with another c and armia for a couple of games.

In the playoffs it should be laine+scheif no doubt if they ever make it there

 

[Narow]

Not sure how Little and Laing have no chemistry together. They have been our best duo on a few nights. Posted respectable Possession numbers and decent point totals.

Those who think Laing and Chef are some kind of magic duo somehow completely forget how much time those two spent defending in their own end and not scoring. I could give three stats that would show you "what" kind of chemistry they had together. XG, Corsi, and sh%. I won't because they get casually disregarded as meaningless time and time again.

Perhaps this year would be different but outside of a couple home games and at least 1 of those against the Dallas stars AHL team. Those 2 did not play that well together or at least all the data points to them getting outscored significantly over a large sample size.

We remember the hat trick against an AHL level squad but completely forget the 2 full periods in Boston where they did not register a single shot attempt for 2 strait periods.

If we had MP to play with them both I'd be a lot more conformable letting them go but at the moment we only got Ehlers and he was the linemate who those 2 stunk with last season.

PoMo may be an idiot by you be hard pressed to explain why using his management of Laine or which linemates he plays with.

Also, Little is a top 40C in the league. If Laine can't play and produce with him he's not a very special player...... but he's been absolutely fine with him so it shouldn't be a worry.

Imagine then getting scheifele+line to be a dominant corsi line. If they managed to be about the most productive duo in the entire nhl despite being hemmed in their own zone that much while at the same time outscoring opposition with about 60-70% GF% infront of a devastated defence most of the time, well do i need to continue?

Seems tho that the jets are lousy at corsi no matter which line...or combination