Ottawa Sun "You Be The Boss Survey"

[Ray Kinsella]

Of all of the things that won't ever happen, this is the one that won't happen the most.

LOL

 

[Boud]

Nope ,which is why EM needs to **** about how little he makes,and stop using it as an excuse as to why he always cheaps out on the team

No kidding.

I still fail to understand the "We don't make enough money to spend like other teams do" argument or excuse that he's always using left and right.

Is there an example in life where an owner went out of his way to tell everybody how much little money he made with his company and positive results came out of it?

There's literally no possible positive outcome. It's almost like Melnyk thinks more people will come to the arena if he tells them that he's not making enough money. All it does is the complete opposite. People that already don't go to games (In part because of Melnyk being cheap) clearly won't be spending more AND you risk offending the fans that do spend a lot of money at the rink.

 

[Engineer]

delete

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Lame survey. I would not use the results for the basis of any argument or decision.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

I answered it on a lark. I voted Paul MacLean on a lark for the next coach because hell, if we're going to suck at least let's be entertaining. Voted Alfie behind the bench, Melnyk to blame, Zadina for the pick, Melnyk Out gets me to buy more tickets and so on.

Got a chuckle at the dudes that wanted Garrioch behind the bench.
Don't put a lot of stock into this survey, it's easily gameable on their site (as with all Sun sites) by just using the "private browser" option and stacking votes.

 

[aragorn]

Let me start by saying I'm not defending EM, I can't stand him nor is this survey any good. However, attendance is down, that's a fact & this team depends on ticket sales & the place being sold out a number of nights throughout the hockey season. He may be a billionaire but the product needs to make money in order to stay in business. Would you keep a business open or in the same location if you were consistently losing money on it? I understand there are some that won't go to games specifically because of him but I doubt that is a large number of fans. IMO cost has more to do with it.

I have no idea if this guy is making or losing money but the lack of attendance does say something about the financial status of the team. Not only is Ottawa a small hockey market, it has a very small corporate presence here & the largest employer is the federal government who are prohibited from any involvement with the hockey team & the Phoenix Pay system continues to cause havoc with people's pay. I've also met dozens of civil servants who are not hockey fans & prefer the theatre. The salary cap has already surpassed $75 million with no sign that it will slow down or peak which can only mean the cost of everything related to this team will increase. Then there is the cost of operations, the AHL franchise, travel & everything else that comes with operating this huge enterprise. The money has to come from somewhere.

Add to this that Gatineau across the river or most francophones are mostly Montreal fans & there are a huge number of Leaf & other team fans living in this area that only go to those games when their teams are playing. At least they go to some games. I'm not making excuses those are facts. I imagine that if & when they move downtown that attendance will increase but I'm not sure it will ever be like it was when they were selling out regularly unless they win a cup. It may be that it's just becoming too expensive for average fans to attend games. Life continues to be more expensive every yr & there just may not be enough hockey fans with money who are willing to put out that kind of money for hockey every yr when there are so many other things that are more important in life. I honestly don't know if this town can support an NHL team given all the circumstances surrounding this team, it's owner & the current financial culture & economy in this city. It kind of reminds me of the Rough Rider & Rennegade's decline before they folded the team & the disgust with their ownerships but I hope it doesn't go down the same road.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Question 18: Which front line UFA should be pursued come July 1?
John Tavares – 46%
James Neal – 23%
Paul Statsny – 19%
Rick Nash – 19%
Other – 8%
Notable write-ins:
None of the above
Calvin de Haan

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Question 18: Which front line UFA should be pursued come July 1?
John Tavares – 46%
James Neal – 23%
Paul Statsny – 19%
Rick Nash – 19%
Other – 8%
Notable write-ins:
None of the above
Calvin de Haan

So our budget Sens are going to pay Tavares? or any of the other guys? yah right

 

[Sensung]

Let me start by saying I'm not defending EM, I can't stand him nor is this survey any good. However, attendance is down, that's a fact & this team depends on ticket sales & the place being sold out a number of nights throughout the hockey season. He may be a billionaire but the product needs to make money in order to stay in business. Would you keep a business open or in the same location if you were consistently losing money on it? I understand there are some that won't go to games specifically because of him but I doubt that is a large number of fans. IMO cost has more to do with it.

I have no idea if this guy is making or losing money but the lack of attendance does say something about the financial status of the team. Not only is Ottawa a small hockey market, it has a very small corporate presence here & the largest employer is the federal government who are prohibited from any involvement with the hockey team & the Phoenix Pay system continues to cause havoc with people's pay. I've also met dozens of civil servants who are not hockey fans & prefer the theatre. The salary cap has already surpassed $75 million with no sign that it will slow down or peak which can only mean the cost of everything related to this team will increase. Then there is the cost of operations, the AHL franchise, travel & everything else that comes with operating this huge enterprise. The money has to come from somewhere.

Add to this that Gatineau across the river or most francophones are mostly Montreal fans & there are a huge number of Leaf & other team fans living in this area that only go to those games when their teams are playing. At least they go to some games. I'm not making excuses those are facts. I imagine that if & when they move downtown that attendance will increase but I'm not sure it will ever be like it was when they were selling out regularly unless they win a cup. It may be that it's just becoming too expensive for average fans to attend games. Life continues to be more expensive every yr & there just may not be enough hockey fans with money who are willing to put out that kind of money for hockey every yr when there are so many other things that are more important in life. I honestly don't know if this town can support an NHL team given all the circumstances surrounding this team, it's owner & the current financial culture & economy in this city. It kind of reminds me of the Rough Rider & Rennegade's decline before they folded the team & the disgust with their ownerships but I hope it doesn't go down the same road.

The Sens do not lose money according to the best available information.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That wasn't an insult.

You've been going on for months that the average fan doesn't care or understand the Melnyk issue and that he isn't a cause of the lowered ticket sales. This was used as your argument for why billboards wouldn't do anything, and that only a small petulant subset of the fan base is stirring up negativity, but the majority of fans aren't negative or care about ownership.

I even recall a story you said about a friend of yours going to a game this year and loving it and having a great time, and that's because she's an average person who doesn't follow or care for the ownership stuff.

So, your argument has been dismantled by this poll. 5000 fans, of which the majority would choose Tkachuk 2nd overall (lol), have stated that they WOULD buy more tickets if the team wasn't owned by Melnyk.

Actually, I thought the billboards wouldn't have an effect because they were negative and petty (I still think they were negative and petty). Then I came back and posted a general apology and admitted that I was wrong and that the billboards seemed to have shed some light on said negativity and likely served to help convince EM to host some town hall meetings to try and create some positivity around the team (not sure that worked as planned).

I still maintain that the average person doesn't care about these things and that the games will still sell thousands of tickets regardless of what happens. And I quite liked my little story! She went to two games and sent me tons of pictures and was super stoked, that reflected well on the city, the team, and the atmosphere to someone who is not concerned with the goings on behind the scenes. This is a good thing for everyone I thought.

As for the survey of 5000 people who took the time to fill it out, good on them, but I fail to see how such a small segment of folks serves to prove anything at all. I mean in the same sentence you laugh at folks for choosing BT 2nd over all, but then put stock in their answers to other questions. Don't get me wrong, if those 3500ish fans bought more tickets than they do that would be nice (oddly the sentence seems to make it seem like they do buy tickets though).

I mean, you using this survey as grounds to applaud yourself for "dismantling" an argument that i didn't quite make, but then returned to man up and admit to being wrong about it's effects, is pretty weak on both fronts in my opinion. I mean sure, keep doing you if it makes you feel good, and thanks for taking the time to read my posts over the last while, there's always that.

Also, thanks for explaining this all to me, unfortunately all I can really muster its a shrug of the shoulders and a condescending 'meh', it wasn't a good one, and the 'evidence' is weak at the very best, and that's not even taking into account that this is a non-issue for me personally.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Actually, I thought the billboards wouldn't have an effect because they were negative and petty (I still think they were negative and petty). Then I came back and posted a general apology and admitted that I was wrong and that the billboards seemed to have shed some light on said negativity and likely served to help convince EM to host some town hall meetings to try and create some positivity around the team (not sure that worked as planned).

I still maintain that the average person doesn't care about these things and that the games will still sell thousands of tickets regardless of what happens. And I quite liked my little story! She went to two games and sent me tons of pictures and was super stoked, that reflected well on the city, the team, and the atmosphere to someone who is not concerned with the goings on behind the scenes. This is a good thing for everyone I thought.

As for the survey of 5000 people who took the time to fill it out, good on them, but I fail to see how such a small segment of folks serves to prove anything at all. I mean in the same sentence you laugh at folks for choosing BT 2nd over all, but then put stock in their answers to other questions. Don't get me wrong, if those 3500ish fans bought more tickets than they do that would be nice (oddly the sentence seems to make it seem like they do buy tickets though).

I mean, you using this survey as grounds to applaud yourself for "dismantling" an argument that i didn't quite make, but then returned to man up and admit to being wrong about it's effects, is pretty weak on both fronts in my opinion. I mean sure, keep doing you if it makes you feel good, and thanks for taking the time to read my posts over the last while, there's always that.

Also, thanks for explaining this all to me, unfortunately all I can really muster its a shrug of the shoulders and a condescending 'meh', it wasn't a good one, and the 'evidence' is weak at the very best, and that's not even taking into account that this is a non-issue for me personally.

Not to intervene, neither to take part in this particular discussion, but to be fair and for what’s it’s worth, I recall your apology and different outlook on the results of the billboards. I felt it was decent.

 

[Cloud]

The Sens do not lose money according to the best available information.

Ok so how much profit has the team made, say over the last five years?...Do we have those numbers anywhere? I'd be curious to know. And by "profit" I mean money in Melnyk's pocket...not appreciation value of the franchise itself.

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[Heady Topper]

Actually, I thought the billboards wouldn't have an effect because they were negative and petty (I still think they were negative and petty). Then I came back and posted a general apology and admitted that I was wrong and that the billboards seemed to have shed some light on said negativity and likely served to help convince EM to host some town hall meetings to try and create some positivity around the team (not sure that worked as planned).

I still maintain that the average person doesn't care about these things and that the games will still sell thousands of tickets regardless of what happens. And I quite liked my little story! She went to two games and sent me tons of pictures and was super stoked, that reflected well on the city, the team, and the atmosphere to someone who is not concerned with the goings on behind the scenes. This is a good thing for everyone I thought.

As for the survey of 5000 people who took the time to fill it out, good on them, but I fail to see how such a small segment of folks serves to prove anything at all. I mean in the same sentence you laugh at folks for choosing BT 2nd over all, but then put stock in their answers to other questions. Don't get me wrong, if those 3500ish fans bought more tickets than they do that would be nice (oddly the sentence seems to make it seem like they do buy tickets though).

I mean, you using this survey as grounds to applaud yourself for "dismantling" an argument that i didn't quite make, but then returned to man up and admit to being wrong about it's effects, is pretty weak on both fronts in my opinion. I mean sure, keep doing you if it makes you feel good, and thanks for taking the time to read my posts over the last while, there's always that.

Also, thanks for explaining this all to me, unfortunately all I can really muster its a shrug of the shoulders and a condescending 'meh', it wasn't a good one, and the 'evidence' is weak at the very best, and that's not even taking into account that this is a non-issue for me personally.

That's fair on the survey. Ask another 5000 people and the % could shift dramatically one way or another. Won't get into the whole side argument that's been rolled into this one, but I'll say this: whatever industry you operate in, if you lose your die-hards, your core, your geeks, the rest follows shortly thereafter.

If there are 3, 4, 5000 empty seats when you go to games, it gets lame real quick and you're not as quick to buy back in.

IveIsaid this before, Melnyk's game is more dangerous than he thinks. If he alienates people over a long period of time, he could miss out on a good portion of the next generation of potential Sens fans. Of course, if he doesn't give a damn and is just limping towards LeBreton, that's a different story.

 

[Sensung]

Ok so how much profit has the team made, say over the last five years?...Do we have those numbers anywhere? I'd be curious to know. And by "profit" I mean money in Melnyk's pocket...not appreciation value of the franchise itself.

The Forbes numbers have been posted numerous times and show 70+M over the past decade in operating income.

Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

Need to look at the Forbes info on a tablet or computer. Check for bar graph of operating income for the past decade.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The Forbes numbers have been posted numerous times and show 70+M over the past decade in operating income.

Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

Need to look at the Forbes info on a tablet or computer. Check for bar graph of operating income for the past decade.

We should have had .. how much $ does Melnyk make a season on the survey and just use the majority answer as the way it is.

 

[Sensung]

We should have had .. how much $ does Melnyk make a season on the survey and just use the majority answer as the way it is.

?

Never claimed the numbers were perfect, just the best we have and supplied by a respected business publication.

 

[Cloud]

The Forbes numbers have been posted numerous times and show 70+M over the past decade in operating income.

Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

Need to look at the Forbes info on a tablet or computer. Check for bar graph of operating income for the past decade.

yeah, I realize this had been beat to death already but I'm just trying to run some numbers. It's hard to find exact figures on anything which is understandable I guess. So If I go with just the Forbes numbers of 70 Million over 10 years and gross revenue over the same time frame of 1.067 Billion...that works out to about just a little over a 7% profit margin...
That isn't exactly a great profit margin for a business...it's actually quite poor. Sure, Melnyk isn't technically loosing money...but he's not exactly anywhere near where he should be if he was running what would be considered a successful business either. And had he been spending to the cap every year that percentage would obviously be even lower. Not trying to defend the man but the average percentage for running a successful business seems to fall in the 15-20% range minimum...Apple for example does between 40-60% on average from what I've read....
So IDK...if it was me personally, and I had Melnyk money, I'd probably just own a hockey team like it was a hobby...and hobbies traditionally cost money instead of making it...but at the same time I can't really begrudge the man if he wants to run it as a business and make a profit...and 7% leaves little to no room for error.

 

[Sensung]

yeah, I realize this had been beat to death already but I'm just trying to run some numbers. It's hard to find exact figures on anything which is understandable I guess. So If I go with just the Forbes numbers of 70 Million over 10 years and gross revenue over the same time frame of 1.067 Billion...that works out to about just a little over a 7% profit margin...
That isn't exactly a great profit margin for a business...it's actually quite poor. Sure, Melnyk isn't technically loosing money...but he's not exactly anywhere near where he should be if he was running what would be considered a successful business either. And had he been spending to the cap every year that percentage would obviously be even lower. Not trying to defend the man but the average percentage for running a successful business seems to fall in the 15-20% range minimum...Apple for example does between 40-60% on average from what I've read....
So IDK...if it was me personally, and I had Melnyk money, I'd probably just own a hockey team like it was a hobby...and hobbies traditionally cost money instead of making it...but at the same time I can't really begrudge the man if he wants to run it as a business and make a profit...and 7% leaves little to no room for error.

But you can't ignore the asset appreciation.

 

[Cloud]

But you can't ignore the asset appreciation.

yes but you can't really qualify it either. Asset appreciation doesn't mean all that much unless you sell...or use it as leverage to borrow (which means adding debt)...and that's probably mostly about it.
I suppose one could take the stance that Melnyk should just run an even lower profit margin or even loose money every year because "appreciation"...but that just wouldn't be a good business model.
No successful business I know of ( personally) takes asset appreciation into consideration when running the day to day operations.

 

[Sensung]

yes but you can't really qualify it either. Asset appreciation doesn't mean all that much unless you sell...or use it as leverage to borrow (which means adding debt)...and that's probably mostly about it.
I suppose one could take the stance that Melnyk should just run an even lower profit margin or even loose money every year because "appreciation"...but that just wouldn't be a good business model.
No successful business I know of ( personally) takes asset appreciation into consideration when running the day to day operations.

Vitrually every pro sports franchise does.

 

[Cloud]

Vitrually every pro sports franchise does.

Ok...that may be true, I don't know. You'd have to explain to me how they are taking that into consideration when running the day to day..and how it affects it. It's entirely possible I'm misunderstanding some angle here but I don't see it at the moment.

 

[Boud]

yes but you can't really qualify it either. Asset appreciation doesn't mean all that much unless you sell...or use it as leverage to borrow (which means adding debt)...and that's probably mostly about it.
I suppose one could take the stance that Melnyk should just run an even lower profit margin or even loose money every year because "appreciation"...but that just wouldn't be a good business model.
No successful business I know of ( personally) takes asset appreciation into consideration when running the day to day operations.

All the big investors do really. In fact it's extremely smart to re-negotiate your loans as your assets gain value since you can negotiate better interest rates (More valuable assets to recover thus less risk for the entity loaning the money) or just use the extra capital to leverage other investments that will generate extra cash flow. Added value is as good as cash and for an investor like Melnyk who clearly knows what he's doing you can bet he'll be using this extra value of the franchise as a backbone of the financial side in the Lebreton negotiations as well.

And not only that but with the expansion team coming up in the next 5 years (?), the franchise will once again gain value. If the Lebreton deal works out it will gain more and so on. There's a bigger picture here. Even if Melnyk was running on losses (not happening) or thinner profit margins it'd still be worth it to invest in the franchise.

 

[Cloud]

All the big investors do really. In fact it's extremely smart to re-negotiate your loans as your assets gain value since you can negotiate better interest rates (More valuable assets to recover thus less risk for the entity loaning the money) or just use the extra capital to leverage other investments that will generate extra cash flow. Added value is as good as cash and for an investor like Melnyk who clearly knows what he's doing you can bet he'll be using this extra value of the franchise as a backbone of the financial side in the Lebreton negotiations as well.

And not only that but with the expansion team coming up in the next 5 years (?), the franchise will once again gain value. If the Lebreton deal works out it will gain more and so on. There's a bigger picture here. Even if Melnyk was running on losses (not happening) or thinner profit margins it'd still be worth it to invest in the franchise.

Yeah I get all that, and you're right. And Melnyk is undoubtedly doing those things. The whole "spend money to make money" angle.
I guess at the end of the day it's hard to say why Melnyk runs things the way he does, but I'm not going to bother speculating.

 

[Sensung]

Yeah I get all that, and you're right. And Melnyk is undoubtedly doing those things. The whole "spend money to make money" angle.
I guess at the end of the day it's hard to say why Melnyk runs things the way he does, but I'm not going to bother speculating.

The better questions are twofold in my opinion.

Why does Melnyk run the Sens so differently from most other pro sport franchises? (and from how he ran things in the early years of his ownership)

If the business model is so flawed, why did Vegas pay 500M and Seattle is about to pay 600M for the right to buy in? (Note that isn't their real start up cost, just a sunk cost paid to gain membership)