Speculation: Offseason Thread XVII: Trade a spade for a jade

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It depends on what the goal is here. Are we taking a step back and thinking playoffs rather than Cup? If so, why should we care so much if these guys are replacing Nash or Zucc right at this second?

I dont care about that, at all.

At this point in time, the question is if Vesey and Buchnevich are even ready to play in the NHL

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Uh-oh.

I'm well aware the Ducks need to add in that scenario FYI, see my recent proposal - Montour + OTT 2nd + Thompson (LTIR - added for salary relief)

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

It depends on what the goal is here. Are we taking a step back and thinking playoffs rather than Cup? If so, why should we care so much if these guys are replacing Nash or Zucc right at this second?

The point that gets lost in so much of this analysis about Buch, Vesey, Pitti, trading Nash/Zuc, the obsession with getting Shatty now, now, now.

Patience is the byword.

 

[Tawnos]

I dont care about that, at all.

At this point in time, the question is if Vesey and Buchnevich are even ready to play in the NHL

I think they're going to be on the NHL team until they prove they aren't ready, whether they have a good camp or not. Neither player is starting the season in Hartford.

 

[Tawnos]

The point that gets lost in so much of this analysis about Buch, Vesey, Pitti, trading Nash/Zuc, the obsession with getting Shatty now, now, now.

Patience is the byword.

Yes. And personally, while I like Shattenkirk as a player, I'd rather get someone 23-25 right now.

Patience is important, but the thing here is that we have too many forwards to simply be looking at a backup plan for Buch and Vesey. There are essentially 8 wingers who are reasonably competing for 2 roster spots. That's insane.

 

[Vitto79]

tbh I might rather stick with Jooris on that line but it'll come down to who keeps playing well and who doesn't get traded...

If they can package fast in a deal to get a good offensive D sure . It is true they have options plus I think fast may go in a expansion draft

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I think they're going to be on the NHL team until they prove they aren't ready, whether they have a good camp or not. Neither player is starting the season in Hartford.

I would lean towards agreeing, but with that said, the Rangers absolutely loading up on depth forwards gives you a little bit of an idea that:

1. They dont think its a sure thing with those 2
2. They aren't fully committed to dealing with any growing pains and having them learn on the job in the NHL --- if this werent the case, Nash and Zucc may already be gone too.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

If they can package fast in a deal to get a good offensive D sure . It is true they have options plus I think fast may go in a expansion draft

You'd certainly be hardpressed to find any team to take a dime a dozen forward like Fast and send one of the most difficult commodities to find in the NHL back the other way.

 

[Crease]

The upcoming expansion draft has added a fascinating wrinkle to this off-season.

 

[haohmaru]

Because no one else manned up, here's my depth chart by position:


LW C RW

Nash Stepan Zooks
Kreider Zibanejad Miller
Fast Hayes Pirri
Vesey Lindberg Grabner
Glass Jooris Gerbe
Nieves Lapierre Hrivik/Jensen/Kovacs

LD RD

McDonagh Klein
Staal Mcilrath
Skjei Clendening
Holden Girardi
Graves Anderson/Gilmour(?)

G

Lundqvist
Raanta
Halverson

Obviously, some forwards can play multiple positions (Hayes, Pirri, Milller etc...)

Really curious who's making the team in October, given the unknowns (Buch/Vesey/Hrivik/Kovacs etc...)

 

[Tawnos]

I would lean towards agreeing, but with that said, the Rangers absolutely loading up on depth forwards gives you a little bit of an idea that:

1. They dont think its a sure thing with those 2
2. They aren't fully committed to dealing with any growing pains and having them learn on the job in the NHL --- if this werent the case, Nash and Zucc may already be gone too.

I don't think #1 is true. Hedging their bets isn't necessarily the same as being unsure.

And that being said, it's not like they didn't have a ton of wingers beyond VZ and Buch before adding Pirri.

As for #2, we'll just have to see if anything happens before the season starts.

 

[Trxjw]

I don't think the intent is for any of those players to replace what either Nash or Zucc bring. I think the idea is that if we can trade Nash or Zucc to upgrade the defense, then a Pirri, Vesey or Buchnevich can mitigate, but not replace, what we are losing on offense.

There's only 1 puck and only so much playing time. At a certain point, removing a player, even a very good player, isn't going to have that much of an effect on the overall output of the team. We traded Gaborik mid-season when everyone screamed that you don't trade a 40 goal scorer. Have we ever regretted that deal?

It depends on what the goal is here. Are we taking a step back and thinking playoffs rather than Cup? If so, why should we care so much if these guys are replacing Nash or Zucc right at this second?

If you listen to Gorton, the goal is to remain competitive. Trading Nash or Zucc and relying on one of these other players to even mitigate the loss is quite a challenge. Now, "competitive" can mean a lot of different things and your guesses are as good as mine when it comes to what the front office really means by that.

I'm not really as concerned with them replacing those players, but with having undue pressure on them to perform in the absence of them. I think if you put a Vesey in the lineup and move Nash, there's always going to be that unspoken connection between Nash leaving and Vesey coming in that makes fans think he's the replacement. If he pots 35 points that's a damn fine rookie season, but when compared to 30 goals from Nash, it's a disappointment.

Ultimately my main point is that there's a real chance that Vesey and Buchnevich simply aren't ready for the NHL, and if you trade away a guy now thinking that they are, you're forcing them to play that role even if they're not suited just yet.

 

[Lion Hound]

Trouba and Honka trade-talk

If we were to subtract Shattenkirk, these are liklely the top two names we seem to hear everyday on this board during this offseason. Both fit the bill in terms of position(RD), Age (22, 20) and skill, skating, contracts, and of course PMD abilities. With that said, most posters salivate at the thought of either of them coming to the NYR in a trade.

Other then the wishful thinking of us fans on the board, has there been any talks, or links to reliable sources that either of these two players are really available? Or is this pure speculative or even wishfulness of some of the posters here that NYR will acquire one of these two in a trade?

 

[Levitate]

The point that gets lost in so much of this analysis about Buch, Vesey, Pitti, trading Nash/Zuc, the obsession with getting Shatty now, now, now.

Patience is the byword.

I think the deal is basically to just make the best move that presents itself. If they don't get good offers for Nash or Klein or whoever they have in mind to trade, then sit tight and see how it goes. If they get good offers, go for it. That said, I think the Rangers generally aren't of mind to really tear down too much of the team..I don't think they want to destroy their forward depth, they want to keep things competitive until they can make the moves they feel will make the team contenders again. I think they still want to contend with the years Lundqvist has left, but Gorton isn't going to make wild impulsive moves in order to do so. At the same time, he's not going to gut the team for picks and young prospects either.

I think they're going to be on the NHL team until they prove they aren't ready, whether they have a good camp or not. Neither player is starting the season in Hartford.

Agreed. Unless they're really really bad they'll both get their chance at the NHL level for a bit and I think the coaches will give them leeway for awhile as well.

I would lean towards agreeing, but with that said, the Rangers absolutely loading up on depth forwards gives you a little bit of an idea that:

1. They dont think its a sure thing with those 2
2. They aren't fully committed to dealing with any growing pains and having them learn on the job in the NHL --- if this werent the case, Nash and Zucc may already be gone too.

Or they haven't had a good deal for Nash and Zucc? Also remember at this point that even if Buch and Vesey replace Nash and Zucc, that would still mean Pirri playing on the 2nd line and grabner/fast on the 3rd line and the overall forward depth looking fairly "meh". That's what I mean about not believing that Gorton is going to blow up the Rangers depth at this point.

 

[Levitate]

Trouba and Honka trade-talk

If we were to subtract Shattenkirk, these are liklely the top two names we seem to hear everyday on this board during this offseason. Both fit the bill in terms of position(RD), Age (22, 20) and skill, skating, contracts, and of course PMD abilities. With that said, most posters salivate at the thought of either of them coming to the NYR in a trade.

Other then the wishful thinking of us fans on the board, has there been any talks, or links to reliable sources that either of these two players are really available? Or is this pure speculative or even wishfulness of some of the posters here that NYR will acquire one of these two in a trade?

I think there have been vague talks that Trouba and The Peg have had some issues seeing eye to eye on a contract extension which is leading people to think he might be moved, plus he'll always kind of be second fiddle behind Buff

Honka I think is 100% a "Dallas might want some more pieces to contend and maybe they'd move a young D man to get it" and I don't think there's any reason to believe they'd actually do so

 

[Tawnos]

Ultimately my main point is that there's a real chance that Vesey and Buchnevich simply aren't ready for the NHL, and if you trade away a guy now thinking that they are, you're forcing them to play that role even if they're not suited just yet.

There's very little chance those guys aren't ready, although I think there's a bigger chance that Vesey isn't than Buchnevich.

 

[Levitate]

There's very little chance those guys aren't ready, although I think there's a bigger chance that Vesey isn't than Buchnevich.

They're definitely ready to push for a spot IMO but might not be 100% ready for a full NHL season. That will be determined, however...and as has been said I think they'll be given a chance to lose it rather than being forced to win it with superb play from the beginning

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

There's very little chance those guys aren't ready, although I think there's a bigger chance that Vesey isn't than Buchnevich.

What is this based on? Certainly not on any North American pro experience you can draw upon?

 

[Vitto79]

You'd certainly be hardpressed to find any team to take a dime a dozen forward like Fast and send one of the most difficult commodities to find in the NHL back the other way.

Yea I know they need to add a lot more but I'm a bigger fast fan then some of you

 

[Trxjw]

There's very little chance those guys aren't ready, although I think there's a bigger chance that Vesey isn't than Buchnevich.

Maybe we hold different interpretations of what ready means in this context, but I don't doubt that they could play in the NHL right now. What I'm saying is I don't know for sure if either player is ready for a full 82 game season in a top-9 role, and if they aren't, I don't want them getting the Niederreiter treatment where they're getting 4th line minutes all season. I want them to grow.

 

[Tawnos]

What is this based on? Certainly not on any North American pro experience you can draw upon?

With Buchnevich, this is based on literally no professional hockey mind, that we know of, thinking he isn't ready for the NHL. Only skeptical fans aren't sure. Honestly, I've always been a big believer in "he's not an NHL player until he plays in the NHL," but we're talking about as sure of a thing as there could be here.

With Vesey, there are very, very few people throwing out skepticism, and most of it doesn't even have to do with whether or not he's NHL ready, but rather what his ceiling is. You don't see a whole lot of "should be ready to push for a spot." You do see a whole lot of "is NHL ready right now."

We will see, but sometimes it's best to defer to the experts.

 

[Kovalev27]

Kreider Stepan Zucc
Nash Zibanejad Buchnevich
Vesey Hayes Miller
Grabner Jooris Fast
Glass Pirri Gerbe
Hrivik Lindberg Jensen

No real particular order but that's absurd lol.

There's got to be a deal coming for a righty D

Let's not forget the D is all screwy as it is you've got 5 lefties 3 righties. You actually went out and dealt for another lefty in Holden who played 21 plus a night for Colorado he's no spare part for us.

Something big is coming

 

[alkurtz]

Each year, because of injuries, we seem to be reduced to calling up career AHLers like Jason Megna, to fill in for a few games.

This year, if no trades are forthcoming, we have the depth to use legit NHLers as injury fill ins. Some of these guys, like Gerbe and Pirri, can "play up" and fill roles in the top 6 for a short stretch of games.

Doesn't apply to defense however: I can also tell when we are depth depleted when we need to call up Chris Summers.

The guy I feel sorry for here in Marek Hrvik. I wonder if he regrets resigned and not heading to Europe. I think the guy has the skill set to be a pretty effective 4th line player but with some many others ahead of him on the depth chart, seeing him this year doesn't appear likely.

 

[Tawnos]

Maybe we hold different interpretations of what ready means in this context, but I don't doubt that they could play in the NHL right now. What I'm saying is I don't know for sure if either player is ready for a full 82 game season in a top-9 role, and if they aren't, I don't want them getting the Niederreiter treatment where they're getting 4th line minutes all season. I want them to grow.

Personally, I don't think there's anything Buch can learn in the AHL and the Rangers don't think that either. He's already played and performed well in a better league. Vesey might be different, and he's a little less certain. I don't have the stigma against playing a guy on the 4th line. Neiderreiter did that when he was 19 and in the long run, I don't think it even hurt him. Vesey is not a teenager.

 

[Levitate]

With Buchnevich, this is based on literally no professional hockey mind, that we know of, thinking he isn't ready for the NHL. Only skeptical fans aren't sure. Honestly, I've always been a big believer in "he's not an NHL player until he plays in the NHL," but we're talking about as sure of a thing as there could be here.

With Vesey, there are very, very few people throwing out skepticism, and most of it doesn't even have to do with whether or not he's NHL ready, but rather what his ceiling is. You don't see a whole lot of "should be ready to push for a spot." You do see a whole lot of "is NHL ready right now."

We will see, but sometimes it's best to defer to the experts.

IMO it's that Buch has played in a pro mens league for several seasons now, second best league in the world, and while there are differences in the style of play, his skill level and development should be up to the jump, though it may definitely take him a bit to settle in completely. There's "ready to play in the NHL and start learning" which is different than "ready to jump in and make a huge impact", I think Buch is ready to start learning

With Vesey, he's older, he's played 4 years of college, he has the body size and game style that's translatable, it's just about experience at the NHL level now.

IMO there's no substitute for learning at the NHL level...you can't learn how to play NHL hockey at the AHL level. A guy can go tear up the AHL but still look like a learning rookie at the NHL level because the gap is big