Speculation: Offseason Talk V

[Juxtaposer]

Yah me either. They certainly are not going to get that player with Thornton and Marleau still here (won't draft high enough). They'd have to wait until their deals are up in 3 seasons, let them walk for nothing, tank hard for a few years. So figure minimum 5 years before you maybe have a super-star stud rookie, and longer if that player needs to develop (like Hall, RNH, Landeskog, etc). Trade both now and you could potentially have that player next season, or the season after.

Exactly.

And the guy we should've taken in Kopitar. lol

Well yeah, but I'd say Doughty was more important. Without Doughty they wouldn't have traded Johnson, and therefore wouldn't have Carter, plus they'd have JMFJ lol.

 

[rangerssharks414]

I think it will be a half done job and the Sharks still barely make the playoffs next year.

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want them to be like Calgary from four seasons ago or whatever... barely making/missing the playoffs and getting a pick in the teens.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Well yeah, but I'd say Doughty was more important. Without Doughty they wouldn't have traded Johnson, and therefore wouldn't have Carter, plus they'd have JMFJ lol.

Yeah but even if they made that play and didn't have Kopitar because our scouting guys were arrogant little pukes, it wouldn't have mattered. Doughty is probably more important but both guys are important enough to the point that without them, they're not championship level anymore.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yeah but even if they made that play and didn't have Kopitar because our scouting guys were arrogant little pukes, it wouldn't have mattered. Doughty is probably more important but both guys are important enough to the point that without them, they're not championship level anymore.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I strongly believe if they didn't have Doughty but did have Kopitar, they wouldn't have touched the Stanley Cup.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I strongly believe if they didn't have Doughty but did have Kopitar, they wouldn't have touched the Stanley Cup.

I agree with that. I'm just saying the reverse is accurate too.

 

[TealManV]

Very reasonable. But I think if/when Thornton goes, Marleau will also go. Might as well send Pavelski off to get the trades going as well.

Maybe 2 years of totally stinking for a rebuild and then coming back is what I prefer.

I think it will be a half done job and the Sharks still barely make the playoffs next year.

I think that the ownership group is struggling with the idea of not making the playoffs for a season or two from a financial standpoint. They keep reporting losses even when we do sell out every game and make the playoffs. That's why I'm not sure a full tank is in the cards.

Nemo will not get anything close to a 1st. Not happening. But overall, I agree with your analysis for the most part. I would love to think Couture could be a Toews someday, but I don't think he'll ever reach that potential. He may, but its not likely. I have yet to see Couture dominate the way Toews can. That said, taking over the OFFICIAL #1 does give him the chance to grow which I agree is key to his development. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants JT gone more than anyone, for selfish reasons that anyone could understand. For Hertl, man the sky is the limit. I hope he gains some strength in the off-season and continues to progress in this game. He has completely surprised me this season, as I was one to advocate sending him to Worcester to develop confidence and what not. He proved me wrong for sure.

Either way, I hope if Patty/JT are moved they go on to win the cup. It would pain me to see them in a Jets or Leafs jersey for the end of their career.

I agree about Nemo. With the current goalie market of free agents, the best we would get in return is a 2nd or a solid prospect. Although, I think his cap hit/remaining contract and resume is a plus over the Millers, Hillers, etc.

And I too would wish the best for Thornton and Marleau if/when they're moved.

I disagree with your optimistic projection for Couture and the team. Look at Couture's agemates around the league and look who has arrived on scene since. There was a reason he was left off Team Canada and he would have been left off even without the injury.

Toews is a better skater and player, beyond Couture's reach.

Tavares' offense is lightyears beyond Couture.

Stamkos, bigger, faster, better.

Duchene and MacKinnon, the young challengers who can skate circles around Couture.

Skinner, faster (and probably about an even comparison).

Johansen, faster and took his team by storm. CBJ didn't roll out the red carpet, he has earned his minutes.

Others should note that with the exception of Tavares, all are better skaters. Keep this in mind when trying to sell Couture as an above average skater. The same applies to Hertl. Some of the teams with these players will improve and without a major add or two up front, the Sharks will not keep up with them. There are other lesser youngsters (RNH, Monahan, Horvat, Henrique, etc.) that I haven't mentioned who will try to nip at Couture's heels from behind. If they grow, the Sharks will be in a world of hurt relying on Couture or even Hertl as a #1C. It would be in the Sharks interest to find a way to acquire a youngster to supplant Couture as a #1C of the future.

I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you to an extent. Most of the players you listed where drafted in the top 3 of their draft years and given the keys to the kingdom from the beginning. I would also suggest looking at Logan and Toews' stats. They're actually comparable players, except in ice-time and having a team built around one and not the other. I personally believe that Logan would be a fantastic #2 Center with the hope that Hertl develops like Kopitar into a #1 Center.

And to comment on your note about the Olympics team, I know for a fact that Logan made the team but was left off due to his injury. I'm very close to someone in that situation, but Team Canada didn't want to go through the formality.

TMV

The problem is that there are no superstars in that core. It's a fantastic complimentary core if you added a superstar, either up front or on the back. Couture, Hertl, and Nieto are all top-6 forwards, and Couture and Hertl in a couple years will be top-line forwards. Wingels and Demers are solid complimentary pieces (middle-6 forward/middle pair defenseman). Vlasic and Braun are a perfect #2 and #3.

The only way to get superstars is the draft. You can't count on the next iteration of the Joe Thornton trade.

Jux, I understand where you're coming from and agree with you. I used to believe in the power of superstar players but with teams like Boston and STL, I don't know if that's the only way to go. I would love to end up with a Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Stammer, Kane, etc but I believe it's a crap shoot. If we develop a more balance talent pool, I think it can be just as effective. Look at the Capitals, Islanders and Lightning. These teams have incredible superstars but can't build a team around them. With the 2 Stanley Cup teams this year, the Kings have DD who is a star (when he wants to be), Kopitar, who is an absolute stud but not quite a "star" IMO and Quick, who is a top 3 goalie when he's on. They have amazing role players; Carter, Gabby, Williams, Brown, Richards, etc. The Rags have Lundqvist who's a star and a bunch of former stars with St. Louis, Nash and Richards. Plus a solid D and role players. I think it can work both ways.

I also agree with you that we can't expect another Thornton trade to fill that "star" role.

Which is why the focus needs to be on skating and talent over size and character. Another reason to solidify the blue line from top to bottom and not a couple good players and filler the rest of the way. If we're going to end up like the St. Louis Blues up front in terms of a talent ceiling, we need to be rock solid in every aspect of the game from the top of the lineup to the bottom of it including goaltending to have a shot.

But the only way for this team to get that superstar in the draft is to tank. There is no way that this team gets a bona fide superstar and not a Couture/Hertl/Marleau type complementary piece by picking between 6-14. Those guys that get picked at that level could be with the right development but it is unlikely they would get it here.

You're right, PF. We need to focus on drafting and developing players with skill and speed. I also agree that we might end up more like the Blues in the talent department, so we need to shore up every aspect of the team and put players on the ice that fully buy into the system.

I don't think we would tank even with trading the Joes and maybe Marleau. We would still have the same amount of talent as Dallas, Columbus and Arizona, making us a playoff bubble team for the next few seasons.

 

[ScottyDont]

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want them to be like Calgary from four seasons ago or whatever... barely making/missing the playoffs and getting a pick in the teens.

Detroit has made it work for how many years now? There's also no formula to make the team better. We can't just tank and expect to have all of our problems fixed by top 10 draft picks. Hell, we could even get McDavid or Eichel next year and still be no better off. Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, both could be considered generational talents, and they still have had some early playoff exits in the past few years.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Detroit has made it work for how many years now? There's also no formula to make the team better. We can't just tank and expect to have all of our problems fixed by top 10 draft picks. Hell, we could even get McDavid or Eichel next year and still be no better off. Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, both could be considered generational talents, and they still have had some early playoff exits in the past few years.

If I had a choice between either making the playoffs and losing in the first round (like Detroit the last few seasons), or finishing in the bottom five, I'd rather finish in the bottom five and get a great draft pick.

I know "tanking" doesn't always work (see Edmonton, Islanders, Florida), but I'd rather have them do that. Then again, I don't put any money into the team.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If I had a choice between either making the playoffs and losing in the first round (like Detroit the last few seasons), or finishing in the bottom five, I'd rather finish in the bottom five and get a great draft pick.

I know "tanking" doesn't always work (see Edmonton, Islanders, Florida), but I'd rather have them do that. Then again, I don't put any money into the team.

Same. I may not like our current group of hockey op guys in the front office but they're better than the likes of the teams you mentioned so their results likely end up much better...mostly because while the structure may not be perfect, it produces compared to the likes of the Oilers, Islanders, and Panthers who barely have something resembling a system at best and one definitely doesn't like Edmonton.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I agree with that. I'm just saying the reverse is accurate too.

And I have no problem with that. My point was without picking 2nd overall, the Kings would not have won a Cup and wouldn't be poised to win another.

Jux, I understand where you're coming from and agree with you. I used to believe in the power of superstar players but with teams like Boston and STL, I don't know if that's the only way to go. I would love to end up with a Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Stammer, Kane, etc but I believe it's a crap shoot. If we develop a more balance talent pool, I think it can be just as effective. Look at the Capitals, Islanders and Lightning. These teams have incredible superstars but can't build a team around them. With the 2 Stanley Cup teams this year, the Kings have DD who is a star (when he wants to be), Kopitar, who is an absolute stud but not quite a "star" IMO and Quick, who is a top 3 goalie when he's on. They have amazing role players; Carter, Gabby, Williams, Brown, Richards, etc. The Rags have Lundqvist who's a star and a bunch of former stars with St. Louis, Nash and Richards. Plus a solid D and role players. I think it can work both ways.

I also agree with you that we can't expect another Thornton trade to fill that "star" role.

Boston has Chara. St. Louis hasn't won anything (they're just as big or bigger chokers than us). Doughty and Kopitar are both superstars. The Rangers play in a weak Eastern Conference and didn't have to take out Boston.

The Caps, Isles, and Bolts don't win because they have one or two superstars and then nothing. I'm not saying that you don't need quality depth, but teams do not win the Stanley Cup without a superstar. Besides, I think both the Isles and Bolts are going to make some serious noise in the next few years.

Also, please refrain from using the term "Queens" in lieu of "Kings". It's petty and homophobic.

 

[TealManV]

Boston has Chara. St. Louis hasn't won anything (they're just as big or bigger chokers than us). Doughty and Kopitar are both superstars. The Rangers play in a weak Eastern Conference and didn't have to take out Boston.

The Caps, Isles, and Bolts don't win because they have one or two superstars and then nothing. I'm not saying that you don't need quality depth, but teams do not win the Stanley Cup without a superstar. Besides, I think both the Isles and Bolts are going to make some serious noise in the next few years.

Also, please refrain from using the term "Queens" in lieu of "Kings". It's petty and homophobic.

I agree with you about the Bolts and Islanders the next few years. And that the Rags play in a weaker conference and division than us.

I would love to be able to infuse a young, superstar into this team but I do believe that we can build a cup caliber team without one. Plus, I think that Hertl has the ability to become a star ala Kopitar that wasn't a top 3 pick. He's only 20 and we need to allow him to grow and develop as a center.

My Queens reference had no homophobic intentions whatsoever. It's what I've called them for the past 10 years with close friends that are fans of that team. Old habit. Not an attempt at being petty.

 

[SoftDumpInTheCorner]

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I strongly believe if they didn't have Doughty but did have Kopitar, they wouldn't have touched the Stanley Cup.

Without Kopitar they didn't even reach the second round. Remember the 2011 playoffs?

 

[Juxtaposer]

I agree with you about the Bolts and Islanders the next few years. And that the Rags play in a weaker conference and division than us.

I would love to be able to infuse a young, superstar into this team but I do believe that we can build a cup caliber team without one. Plus, I think that Hertl has the ability to become a star ala Kopitar that wasn't a top 3 pick. He's only 20 and we need to allow him to grow and develop as a center.

You must be extraordinarily high on Hertl then. I don't think there's a center I'd take over him besides Crosby. That includes Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Tavares, Giroux, Getzlaf, etc. I would bet heavily against Hertl becoming that good. I think if he can become as good as Couture is now, that's a huge win.

My Queens reference had no homophobic intentions whatsoever. It's what I've called them for the past 10 years with close friends that are fans of that team. Old habit. Not an attempt at being petty.

Then explain the joke to me.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Without Kopitar they didn't even reach the second round. Remember the 2011 playoffs?

The Sharks were pretty close to losing that series too. Three games went to OT it I remember correctly, and they had that ridiculous comeback in Game 3 (I think it was Game 3).

 

[hockeyball]

You must be extraordinarily high on Hertl then. I don't think there's a center I'd take over him besides Crosby. That includes Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Tavares, Giroux, Getzlaf, etc. I would bet heavily against Hertl becoming that good. I think if he can become as good as Couture is now, that's a huge win.



Then explain the joke to me.

I would say it's more casual misogyny than homophobia.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

My Queens reference had no homophobic intentions whatsoever. It's what I've called them for the past 10 years with close friends that are fans of that team. Old habit. Not an attempt at being petty.

Queens is considered homophobic by the mods. Do not use it.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Without Kopitar they didn't even reach the second round. Remember the 2011 playoffs?

Remember how they didn't have Carter or Richards, had Johnson, and had Michal Handzus as their #1C?

That team wasn't going to win a Cup with or without Kopitar.

I would say it's more casual misogyny than homophobia.

I'd say both, but I digress.

 

[TealManV]

You must be extraordinarily high on Hertl then. I don't think there's a center I'd take over him besides Crosby. That includes Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Tavares, Giroux, Getzlaf, etc. I would bet heavily against Hertl becoming that good. I think if he can become as good as Couture is now, that's a huge win.



Then explain the joke to me.

I think that Hertl has a lot of potential and given the right amount of time and opportunity to develop, he could be a special player. If Kopitar was going to become the player he is today, don't you think he would've gone higher than 11th? He's had 8 years to develop as the #1 Center in LA and they've been able to build a team around him and DD. Hertl and Kopitar have similar builds and skill sets. Once again, the potential is there for Hertl.

Honestly, I don't even remember how the joke started, since it was over 10 years ago and I've lost plenty of brain cells since then. It wasn't intended as anything negative or offensive and wasn't directed towards a person, group of people or a certain player. It was just an old force of habit. Luckily, I'm human and prone to making mistakes and will gladly admit when I've made one, as I just have. I'm very sorry if I had offended you in anyway.

 

[TealManV]

Queens is considered homophobic by the mods. Do not use it.

I had no idea. It sincerely and honestly wasn't intentional or meant as misogynistic or homophobic. It was just an unfortunate slip up on my part, from my past as a immature adolescent. I personally have nothing but respect and admiration for what women and homosexuals have had to endure. And in no way was I trying to attack anyone. I sincerely apologize if it was interpreted as such and I'll make sure to never refer to Kings that way moving forward.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I think that Hertl has a lot of potential and given the right amount of time and opportunity to develop, he could be a special player. If Kopitar was going to become the player he is today, don't you think he would've gone higher than 11th? He's had 8 years to develop as the #1 Center in LA and they've been able to build a team around him and DD. Hertl and Kopitar have similar builds and skill sets. Once again, the potential is there for Hertl.

I see the offensive potential there for Hertl, but I don't see the defensive potential. I don't think Hertl is a liability defensively and I think he can become above average defensively a la Thornton, but Kopitar is for my money the best defensive forward in the league, and Hertl won't be that. I see 70 point offensive potential and above average defensive play. That would potentially make him a good 1st liner. But it wouldn't make him a superstar.

Of course, we all see different things. That's just my opinion.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

I had no idea. It sincerely and honestly wasn't intentional or meant as misogynistic or homophobic. It was just an unfortunate slip up on my part, from my past as a immature adolescent. I personally have nothing but respect and admiration for what women and homosexuals have had to endure. And in no way was I trying to attack anyone. I sincerely apologize if it was interpreted as such and I'll make sure to never refer to Kings that way moving forward.

No worries, just wanted to let everyone know.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Queens is considered homophobic by the mods. Do not use it.

Shouldn't it be bleeped out, then?

 

[Gilligans Island]

With the Devils re-signing Zidlicky, Boyle's rights just increase in value slightly.

Package him, Tennyson and Thornton to the Wings for Tatar, Ouellet and a 1st. Make it happen, DW

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Shouldn't it be bleeped out, then?

No, because you can use the word queen without it being an insult. Such as the Queen of England.

Dick is also not bleeped out as it is a name….others too….but that example is enough

 

[OrrNumber4]

No, because you can use the word queen without it being an insult. Such as the Queen of England.

Dick is also not bleeped out as it is a name….others too….but that example is enough

Plenty of other words that can be used as something other than an insult or expletive that are beeped out.