Speculation: Offseason Talk V

[Sharksfan83]

At the time Niederreiter was a flaming wreck of a player and Clutterbuck looked useful as a bottom 6 guy that was at the top of the league in hits and scored a surprising amount of goals for a mucker/grinder/agitator type.

Doesn't make it a good/smart trade but it at least means there's some twisted logic behind it.

At one point, wasn't it floated around these boards that most our posters wanted him? And I have a feeling those posters didn't mind paying something substantial for him.? I maybe wrong!

 

[Juxtaposer]

At the time Niederreiter was a flaming wreck of a player and Clutterbuck looked useful as a bottom 6 guy that was at the top of the league in hits and scored a surprising amount of goals for a mucker/grinder/agitator type.

Doesn't make it a good/smart trade but it at least means there's some twisted logic behind it.

Clutterbuck was coming off a season in which he scored at less than a 20 point pace. Neiderreiter was coming off an excellent season in the AHL. Maybe the Isles knew something about his personality that we don't and that's why he had to go. Maybe they were convinced that all they needed to make the playoffs was a guy who can hit people. Who knows. I mean, that's my question.

I'm not debating that there was some twisted logic behind it, just that it was a dumb trade then and it's a dumb trade now.

 

[Irbes Mask]

* to the person that's going to say "Mike Milbury" or "Mike O'Connell", I say that they're the exceptions that prove the rule.

Even the 'dumbest' GMs have a plan, have a vision for their squad. It's when they look too hard at a guy or talk themselves into believing he's the next cornerstone that they get into trouble. Folks out of the loop want to crystallize each body of work and have it mean something, when hindsight is without context. Millbury was not a good GM, but he had some kind of plan, same for O'Connell. And those are the exceptions.

I think it's this - had he been aware of the importance he would have signed Lydman 3 seasons ago. The Ducks got him cheap and he was decent as a #4 for them. Then this past offseason he would have gone after Sekera harder. A 2nd and McBain was cheap, too.


On fixing the D, DW just simply failed over the years and it started with trading Ehrhoff for scraps.

The Ducks got him more cheaply because Selanne and Koivu. The Finnish Pipeline produced. I wanted Lydman 6 years ago. And how do you know they did not pursue Sekera? Just because McBain has become nothing of what he was does not mean his analogue on the Sharks would have been appealing to the Sabres.

Exactly my thought. Strange.

Dumping Ehrhoff, drafting Dan Spang two spots ahead of Duncan Keith and not giving up more for Pronger. Big **** ups.

Some of that blame needs to be laid at the feet of Tim Burke, the guy in charge of scouting these kids.

3) GMs really value depth and experience. Murray, Scuderi, and Regehr have been there, done that. They won't get phased during a game 7, they won't get nerves from a game that goes to overtime. It may seem cliche to you, but it happens to often to be anything but that. NHL GMs know their teams much better than we do; if they think that such veterans are needed, they must be right.

DW has tried that with Wallin, Huskins, Moen, Kennedy so many of his acquisitions have that magical ring.

I don't care how experienced they are. Murray and Regehr are horrible (Murray shouldn't even be in the NHL). Flat out.

And if NYI really wanted Clutterbuck badly enough to give up Nino, then they're morons. Wanting a guy is one thing, but overpaying through the nose the way they did is stupid. You can't possibly be justifying that trade.

You should care how experienced they are if you're trying to be any sort of armchair GM. The guys that get paid to do it care. Regehr may be 'horrible' but he's still there, in the finals, and he's useful. Murray will get a contract next year because he is still useful. No he's not mobile but neither are lots of NHL defensemen who have jobs and will continue to get them.

Except that there is logic in there, even if it's difficult for you to see and hindsight clouds Snow's rationale at the time.

Clutterbuck was coming off a season in which he scored at less than a 20 point pace. Neiderreiter was coming off an excellent season in the AHL. Maybe the Isles knew something about his personality that we don't and that's why he had to go. Maybe they were convinced that all they needed to make the playoffs was a guy who can hit people. Who knows. I mean, that's my question.

I'm not debating that there was some twisted logic behind it, just that it was a dumb trade then and it's a dumb trade now.

And thus GMs know more about their team than we do, even when their moves end up blowing up in their face(s).

 

[Gilligans Island]

The Ducks got him more cheaply because Selanne and Koivu. The Finnish Pipeline produced. I wanted Lydman 6 years ago. And how do you know they did not pursue Sekera? Just because McBain has become nothing of what he was does not mean his analogue on the Sharks would have been appealing to the Sabres.

I didn't say DW didn't pursue Sekera, just that if he did, he failed.

He certainly should have seen Sekera's value and topped the Canes' offer with Abelthauser, a 2nd and another decent fwd prospect (Hamilton). That would be a price worth paying. We'd have our #3 (or #2, Braun as #3) 2nd pairing LD locked up for seasons - and quite honestly, with the way Sekera moves the puck, we probably wouldn't be *****ing & arguing about blowing up the Sharks. He would have fit like a glove.

Some of that blame needs to be laid at the feet of Tim Burke, the guy in charge of scouting these kids.

The buck stops with the GM. DW is a Norris trophy winner, he needs to step up his evaluation of his former position. I'd be embarrassed if I was him.

 

[SJeasy]

The buck stops with the GM. DW is a Norris trophy winner, he needs to step up his evaluation of his former position. I'd be embarrassed if I was him.

When DW played the game, there was only room for one PPQB/PMD per team. The landscape of the league has changed. Right now, the more PMDs the better for most teams. If you look at recent drafts, only Brodzinski seems to fall in the offensive category. After Carle, Vlasic and Ehrhoff, it seems that they changed the profile of what they wanted. And that want did not put a high emphasis on puck skills.

IMO, the Sharks are a long way from being fixed because of the de-emphasis on skating and puck skills for prospect blueliners. There are a couple of teams that are even worse off as they have spent their ammunition at the draft for size on the blueline with even less emphasis on puck and skating skills than the Sharks. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I didn't say DW didn't pursue Sekera, just that if he did, he failed.

He certainly should have seen Sekera's value and topped the Canes' offer with Abelthauser, a 2nd and another decent fwd prospect (Hamilton). That would be a price worth paying. We'd have our #3 (or #2, Braun as #3) 2nd pairing LD locked up for seasons - and quite honestly, with the way Sekera moves the puck, we probably wouldn't be *****ing & arguing about blowing up the Sharks. He would have fit like a glove.



The buck stops with the GM. DW is a Norris trophy winner, he needs to step up his evaluation of his former position. I'd be embarrassed if I was him.

Well what if Regier didn't want that? The other gm will take whatever deal he feels helps his team. McBain would be helping them more than Albertschauer and Hamilton.

 

[Irbes Mask]

I didn't say DW didn't pursue Sekera, just that if he did, he failed.

He certainly should have seen Sekera's value and topped the Canes' offer with Abelthauser, a 2nd and another decent fwd prospect (Hamilton). That would be a price worth paying. We'd have our #3 (or #2, Braun as #3) 2nd pairing LD locked up for seasons - and quite honestly, with the way Sekera moves the puck, we probably wouldn't be *****ing & arguing about blowing up the Sharks. He would have fit like a glove.



The buck stops with the GM. DW is a Norris trophy winner, he needs to step up his evaluation of his former position. I'd be embarrassed if I was him.

What if the Sabres didn't want the Sharks' unnecessary or underdeveloped pieces? Where the buck stops and the process by which players are drafted are two very different things and DW being a Norris winner has scant meaning to talent evaluation. He was a great D, that doesn't equate to being able to pick the next great D.

 

[Eighth Fret]

You should care how experienced they are if you're trying to be any sort of armchair GM. The guys that get paid to do it care. Regehr may be 'horrible' but he's still there, in the finals, and he's useful. Murray will get a contract next year because he is still useful. No he's not mobile but neither are lots of NHL defensemen who have jobs and will continue to get them.

Just because GM's value experience, doesn't mean they are correct in doing so. Many of them also value toughness and hitting, and we all know how overrated those things are. Murray makes your team worse when he's on the ice. How is that useful?

Regardless of whether Snow knew something about Nino that we didn't, he still gave him up for almost almost nothing.

 

[hohosaregood]

When DW played the game, there was only room for one PPQB/PMD per team. The landscape of the league has changed. Right now, the more PMDs the better for most teams. If you look at recent drafts, only Brodzinski seems to fall in the offensive category. After Carle, Vlasic and Ehrhoff, it seems that they changed the profile of what they wanted. And that want did not put a high emphasis on puck skills.

IMO, the Sharks are a long way from being fixed because of the de-emphasis on skating and puck skills for prospect blueliners. There are a couple of teams that are even worse off as they have spent their ammunition at the draft for size on the blueline with even less emphasis on puck and skating skills than the Sharks. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Joakim Ryan, Demelo, and Abeltshauser I'd probably categorize as being pretty offensively minded as well but I get your point. They're all supposed to be good skaters with good passing abilities.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Joakim Ryan, Demelo, and Abeltshauser I'd probably categorize as being pretty offensively minded as well but I get your point. They're all supposed to be good skaters with good passing abilities.

Brodzinski might be the best of the bunch as far as offensive acumen goes. Mueller is also a good passer and skater.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Well what if Regier didn't want that? The other gm will take whatever deal he feels helps his team. McBain would be helping them more than Albertschauer and Hamilton.

What if the Sabres didn't want the Sharks' unnecessary or underdeveloped pieces? Where the buck stops and the process by which players are drafted are two very different things and DW being a Norris winner has scant meaning to talent evaluation. He was a great D, that doesn't equate to being able to pick the next great D.

Can't you guys just let me be pissed off at DW in peace for f-ing up our D for the past 5 years?

Still annoyed as all heck he dumped Ehrhoff for peanuts. And was a **** for not landing Pronger.

 

[Irbes Mask]

Just because GM's value experience, doesn't mean they are correct in doing so. Many of them also value toughness and hitting, and we all know how overrated those things are. Murray makes your team worse when he's on the ice. How is that useful?

Regardless of whether Snow knew something about Nino that we didn't, he still gave him up for almost almost nothing.

Just because you (evidently) don't like Douglas Murray and thus take a dim view of what ability he has does not mean you are correct in doing so, either. He is useful, he has ability. He's slow but he will be in the NHL next year.


He gave him up for what ended up being almost almost nothing. At the time he could have thought Nino was disruptive and Cal was useful. His mistake was dealing him too early if he was going to deal him at all.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Can't you guys just let me be pissed off at DW in peace for f-ing up our D for the past 5 years?

Still annoyed as all heck he dumped Ehrhoff for peanuts. And was a **** for not landing Pronger.

Eh. Its just easier to forget about those deals.

 

[SJeasy]

Joakim Ryan, Demelo, and Abeltshauser I'd probably categorize as being pretty offensively minded as well but I get your point. They're all supposed to be good skaters with good passing abilities.

All of Ryan, Demelo and Abeltshauser fall short of what the other guys were doing at the same stage. I am coming to believe in that .55pts/game benchmark. It is a little tough to use on USHL/NCAA guys but if you are familiar, you can usually pick off guys who would pass the benchmark as if they were in Canadian junior with Carle being an example.

I forgot Demers who passed the litmus test.

As I am sure you know, I am not looking for all QBs as some will not have the ability to take the high octane game to the next level. What the offensive test does is that it increases the odds that they will have the puck and skating skills for the next level. Those skills that are coming under higher demand now and not just for the Sharks.

 

[Eighth Fret]

Just because you (evidently) don't like Douglas Murray and thus take a dim view of what ability he has does not mean you are correct in doing so, either. He is useful, he has ability. He's slow but he will be in the NHL next year.


He gave him up for what ended up being almost almost nothing. At the time he could have thought Nino was disruptive and Cal was useful. His mistake was dealing him too early if he was going to deal him at all.

I love Crankie as a person, but he's just not an NHL-level defenseman at this point in time, especially with the way the league has been trending.

As for Nino, even in the worst case scenario in which Nino demanded a trade after having strained the relationship with Islanders coaching/management beyond repair, he still should have fetched more than Clutterbuck. Clutterbuck had value at the time, but he was never close to being worth a former top 5 pick still on his rookie deal. It's not like Nino had a NTC which made him extremely difficult to move.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Nino's rookie deal is now over. He's an RFA.

 

[Eighth Fret]

Nino's rookie deal is now over. He's an RFA.

Yes, but he still had a year left on his rookie deal when he was traded.

 

[ScottyDont]

Any thoughts on signing UFA LHD T.J. Brennan? He hasn't gotten a real chance at the big leagues, but he's lighting it up in the AHL.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Any thoughts on signing UFA LHD T.J. Brennan? He hasn't gotten a real chance at the big leagues, but he's lighting it up in the AHL.

No, he's 25 and hasn't cracked an NHL roster on some bad teams. Don't think there is much there.

 

[hohosaregood]

I guess if the organization isn't expecting to compete for the cup next year, I can see them taking chances on young UFAs like Brennan as long as they can keep things under the contract limit.

 

[ScottyDont]

He won the Eddie Shore Award as AHL defenseman of the year in '14 (AHL equiv of the Norris trophy). Pair him with someone responsible like Braun and it could be a cheap signing and high risk high reward scenario.

Dan Boyle's first full season in the NHL wasn't until he was 24. So never say never

 

[spintops]

So what are the thoughts on Hertl at C? Can he do it? Saw his CF% dropped to like 45% when not with Thorton. I understand that's probably with Sheppard at 3C and he is still a rookie so I'm not buying into it to much. Pretty much wondering if he can carry a line as the guy in a few years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

So what are the thoughts on Hertl at C? Can he do it? Saw his CF% dropped to like 45% when not with Thorton. I understand that's probably with Sheppard at 3C and he is still a rookie so I'm not buying into it to much. Pretty much wondering if he can carry a line as the guy in a few years.

I think he can do it but it'll take time and some growing pains. It would probably be wise for them to make him 3C next season unless they decide to keep Thornton.

 

[FeedingFrenzy]

I guess if the organization isn't expecting to compete for the cup next year, I can see them taking chances on young UFAs like Brennan as long as they can keep things under the contract limit.

how about young RFA's like Sustr?

 

[matt trick]

I think a center trio of Couture-Pavs-Hertl would get eaten alive, but that is just me. If they have decided to trade Thornton, I think this groups chances are officially done.

For those that would argue they are done anyway, 2015 is a really, really good year to tank with two franchise forwards, another likely #1 center, and an excellent d-man.

It also just so happens that the teams likely to tank (Edmonton, Winnipeg, Florida, Buffalo) have needs we could fill:

Edmonton- Burns/Braun
Buffalo/Florida- Pavelski/Couture
Winnipeg- Niemi, Couture/Pavs

Tank option:

Niemi, 20th to Winnipeg for 9th overall, 40th overall
Burns, Kennedy to Edmonton for 3rd overall
Thornton @ 50% to Detroit/Chicago for 1st, top prospect, good prospect
Couture, Demers to Florida for 1st overall

Tank for McDavid/Hanafin/Eichel/Barzal (having improved 4 of the 5 worst teams in the league, and decimated the Sharks). Obviously, I don't want this to happen, but I also be pretty annoyed if Wilson pulls some half measure, that neither provides the team with an elite young core, nor gives them a legitimate shot at LA/ANA/CHI, which I fear he is painting himself into a corner of.