Speculation: Offseason Talk V
- Thread starter Juxtaposer
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Honestly, the biggest concern with a 1-2-3 of Couture-Pavelski-Hertl is Pavelski. Marleau and Couture have taken and succeeded in the toughest minutes. They probably won't do any worse in the short term one way or the other. That generally leaves Pavelski with the easier matchups and more of a burden to score. It would depend on how his line is made up before one could really determine if they'd succeed or not. Hertl and the 3rd line against similar levels of competition is not something I'd be concerned with.
But of course, that all changes if the team needs to move Marleau for whatever reason.
DarrylshutzSydor
Registered User
The Sharks are in a great position to trade either Marleau or Thornton or both to a bad team that might get them a shot at McDavid without blowing it up. Your right, its Wilson's move to succeed or fail.
I don't think any team that has Marleau or Thornton on it is going to be a favorite to select first overall. I can see some being a lottery team but not one near the bottom.
DarrylshutzSydor
Registered User
I don't think they're in that great of a position to do that. Both Marleau and Thornton have a movement clause and I sincerely doubt that they would want to go to any team that is truly that bad.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
If both Marleau and Thornton are gone, with little return, combine that with sophomore slumps from Hertl and Stalock, Couture and Nieto adjusting to life without Marleau, Pavelski declining and his luck regressing, Niemi possibly gone, and Burns back on D, all it would take would be say an injury to Vlasic for a couple of months and we're a basement team.
Timo Time
73-9
OrrNumber4
Registered User
- Jul 25, 2002
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Alright, offseason plan redux:
Buyout Havlat
Sign Demers, Wingels, Stalock
Trade Joe Thornton to Chicago for Kris Versteeg (cap dump), Jeremy Morin, and Nick Leddy.
Trade Patrick Marleau to Detroit for Tomas Tatar, Xander Ouellet, and a first-round-pick
Trade Joe Pavelski to Pittsburgh for Beau Bennett and Simon Despres
Trade Brad Stuart (33% retained) to Phoenix for a draft pick.
Trade Anttii Niemi and James Sheppard to STL for Sobotka
Sign Jonas Hiller
Nieto-Couture-Tatar
Bennett-Hertl-Wingels
Torres-Sobotka-Versteeg
Morin-Desjardins-Kennedy
Burish
Leddy-Burns
Vlasic-Braun
Despres-Demers
Oullet
Hiller
Stalock
Torres becomes the team's oldest skater
Wingels and Couture are the oldest players in the top-6.
Buyout Havlat
Sign Demers, Wingels, Stalock
Trade Joe Thornton to Chicago for Kris Versteeg (cap dump), Jeremy Morin, and Nick Leddy.
Trade Patrick Marleau to Detroit for Tomas Tatar, Xander Ouellet, and a first-round-pick
Trade Joe Pavelski to Pittsburgh for Beau Bennett and Simon Despres
Trade Brad Stuart (33% retained) to Phoenix for a draft pick.
Trade Anttii Niemi and James Sheppard to STL for Sobotka
Sign Jonas Hiller
Nieto-Couture-Tatar
Bennett-Hertl-Wingels
Torres-Sobotka-Versteeg
Morin-Desjardins-Kennedy
Burish
Leddy-Burns
Vlasic-Braun
Despres-Demers
Oullet
Hiller
Stalock
Torres becomes the team's oldest skater
Wingels and Couture are the oldest players in the top-6.
DarrylshutzSydor
Registered User
I love the creativity but serious over value for Marleau. i don't think Detroit would even trade Tatar straight up for Marleau.
hockeyball
Registered User
- Nov 10, 2007
- 21,557
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My first impression of that team is it feels similar to Colorado. Not that that is a bad thing.
Timo Time
73-9
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Yeah, that's why he's a cap dump.
I don't hate that roster, ON4. Weaker up front but that's to be expected.
TealManV
A man has said
I don't believe that we need to tank to fully become a different, cup caliber team. There is a way to move some key players for solid younger contributors, prospects and picks that would allow us to continue to evolve on the fly. Please hear me out with an open mind and an open heart. If you just want to troll this, save your fingers and brain power.
Hypothetically, IF we traded Thornton this summer, most of us agree that the return would be a younger top 6 forward/top 4 LD, a decent prospect and a 1st/2nd. The forward/LD would help plug a hole that is needed. The prospect would help bolster our understocked cupboard. The pick would do the same. I realize that return doesn't replace the value of Thornton and we would immediately be a bubble team at best, but in the long run (2 years) we would be a better team overall. We'd also cut the fat as many of us have mentioned; Stuart, Kennedy and Burish. All of whom should net mid round picks to allow us to move up in the draft or continue our restocking. I really believe that we can trade Havlat to a team trying to reach the cap floor (Florida, Islanders) but if not, we buy him out. I'm for trading Nemo if we get a solid return; 1st OR high 2nd round pick OR a solid prospect. I know that DW has said we're not trading Pavs and I know that's divided a lot of us but IF he could get a Josi or Yandle for Pavs, that would be a move he has to make.
I truly believe that a core of Vlasic, Couture, Hertl, Braun and Nieto (all 27 and younger) is still a top 10 (27 and younger) core in the league. Chicago and LA are tops in my mind. We would fall somewhere between 5-10 IMO. Burns is 29 and Marleau is 34. They are great complementary players for that younger core. And players that will help us stay competitive. IF Pavs is still here (30 years old), he is part of the complementary pieces and the "new leadership." Not part of the core, IMO.
By shuffling the deck like this it allows these younger players to grow into roles previously unattainable because of the players ahead on the depth chart. Logan is still only 25 and just coming into his prime. He has the potential to be close to the level with Toews, the main difference being that Toews has had 7 seasons to grow as the #1 center. He's had every opportunity to be "the guy". Every chance to fail and learn. To grow and have a team built around HIM. Logan was brought in as piece to be built around Thornton. The next move is to allow Hertl to start developing as a center. It's going to be rough at first, but the sooner we get through the growing pain, the sooner we reap the rewards. Hertl has the potential to be a beast of a center ala Kopitar. If you truly think about it, Logan has the ability and skills to be a Toews lite and Hertl to be a Kopitar lite. In 2 years, they can be one of the top 5-6 center combos in the league.
Demers will now have an opportunity to be a PPQB with Boyle gone. Hopefully he'll surprise us and be amazing. Wingles will have a chance to grow as a solid tweener and PKer. He can be the leader of the bottom 6. Nieto will continue to develop as a speedy, top 6 forward and learn from Marleau. Stalock will have a chance to prove himself as a legit NHL goalie even if Nemo is still here. We have the potential and we have a lot of good, young players. Maybe we just need to change the recipe a bit.
One step back to go two steps forward.
Hypothetically, IF we traded Thornton this summer, most of us agree that the return would be a younger top 6 forward/top 4 LD, a decent prospect and a 1st/2nd. The forward/LD would help plug a hole that is needed. The prospect would help bolster our understocked cupboard. The pick would do the same. I realize that return doesn't replace the value of Thornton and we would immediately be a bubble team at best, but in the long run (2 years) we would be a better team overall. We'd also cut the fat as many of us have mentioned; Stuart, Kennedy and Burish. All of whom should net mid round picks to allow us to move up in the draft or continue our restocking. I really believe that we can trade Havlat to a team trying to reach the cap floor (Florida, Islanders) but if not, we buy him out. I'm for trading Nemo if we get a solid return; 1st OR high 2nd round pick OR a solid prospect. I know that DW has said we're not trading Pavs and I know that's divided a lot of us but IF he could get a Josi or Yandle for Pavs, that would be a move he has to make.
I truly believe that a core of Vlasic, Couture, Hertl, Braun and Nieto (all 27 and younger) is still a top 10 (27 and younger) core in the league. Chicago and LA are tops in my mind. We would fall somewhere between 5-10 IMO. Burns is 29 and Marleau is 34. They are great complementary players for that younger core. And players that will help us stay competitive. IF Pavs is still here (30 years old), he is part of the complementary pieces and the "new leadership." Not part of the core, IMO.
By shuffling the deck like this it allows these younger players to grow into roles previously unattainable because of the players ahead on the depth chart. Logan is still only 25 and just coming into his prime. He has the potential to be close to the level with Toews, the main difference being that Toews has had 7 seasons to grow as the #1 center. He's had every opportunity to be "the guy". Every chance to fail and learn. To grow and have a team built around HIM. Logan was brought in as piece to be built around Thornton. The next move is to allow Hertl to start developing as a center. It's going to be rough at first, but the sooner we get through the growing pain, the sooner we reap the rewards. Hertl has the potential to be a beast of a center ala Kopitar. If you truly think about it, Logan has the ability and skills to be a Toews lite and Hertl to be a Kopitar lite. In 2 years, they can be one of the top 5-6 center combos in the league.
Demers will now have an opportunity to be a PPQB with Boyle gone. Hopefully he'll surprise us and be amazing. Wingles will have a chance to grow as a solid tweener and PKer. He can be the leader of the bottom 6. Nieto will continue to develop as a speedy, top 6 forward and learn from Marleau. Stalock will have a chance to prove himself as a legit NHL goalie even if Nemo is still here. We have the potential and we have a lot of good, young players. Maybe we just need to change the recipe a bit.
One step back to go two steps forward.
Very reasonable. But I think if/when Thornton goes, Marleau will also go. Might as well send Pavelski off to get the trades going as well.
Maybe 2 years of totally stinking for a rebuild and then coming back is what I prefer.
I think it will be a half done job and the Sharks still barely make the playoffs next year.
Boy Hedican
Homer Jr, friends call me Ho-Ju
Nemo will not get anything close to a 1st. Not happening. But overall, I agree with your analysis for the most part. I would love to think Couture could be a Toews someday, but I don't think he'll ever reach that potential. He may, but its not likely. I have yet to see Couture dominate the way Toews can. That said, taking over the OFFICIAL #1 does give him the chance to grow which I agree is key to his development. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants JT gone more than anyone, for selfish reasons that anyone could understand. For Hertl, man the sky is the limit. I hope he gains some strength in the off-season and continues to progress in this game. He has completely surprised me this season, as I was one to advocate sending him to Worcester to develop confidence and what not. He proved me wrong for sure.
Either way, I hope if Patty/JT are moved they go on to win the cup. It would pain me to see them in a Jets or Leafs jersey for the end of their career.
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I disagree with your optimistic projection for Couture and the team. Look at Couture's agemates around the league and look who has arrived on scene since. There was a reason he was left off Team Canada and he would have been left off even without the injury.
Toews is a better skater and player, beyond Couture's reach.
Tavares' offense is lightyears beyond Couture.
Stamkos, bigger, faster, better.
Duchene and MacKinnon, the young challengers who can skate circles around Couture.
Skinner, faster (and probably about an even comparison).
Johansen, faster and took his team by storm. CBJ didn't roll out the red carpet, he has earned his minutes.
Others should note that with the exception of Tavares, all are better skaters. Keep this in mind when trying to sell Couture as an above average skater. The same applies to Hertl. Some of the teams with these players will improve and without a major add or two up front, the Sharks will not keep up with them. There are other lesser youngsters (RNH, Monahan, Horvat, Henrique, etc.) that I haven't mentioned who will try to nip at Couture's heels from behind. If they grow, the Sharks will be in a world of hurt relying on Couture or even Hertl as a #1C. It would be in the Sharks interest to find a way to acquire a youngster to supplant Couture as a #1C of the future.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
TMV
The problem is that there are no superstars in that core. It's a fantastic complimentary core if you added a superstar, either up front or on the back. Couture, Hertl, and Nieto are all top-6 forwards, and Couture and Hertl in a couple years will be top-line forwards. Wingels and Demers are solid complimentary pieces (middle-6 forward/middle pair defenseman). Vlasic and Braun are a perfect #2 and #3.
The only way to get superstars is the draft. You can't count on the next iteration of the Joe Thornton trade.
The problem is that there are no superstars in that core. It's a fantastic complimentary core if you added a superstar, either up front or on the back. Couture, Hertl, and Nieto are all top-6 forwards, and Couture and Hertl in a couple years will be top-line forwards. Wingels and Demers are solid complimentary pieces (middle-6 forward/middle pair defenseman). Vlasic and Braun are a perfect #2 and #3.
The only way to get superstars is the draft. You can't count on the next iteration of the Joe Thornton trade.
Which is why the focus needs to be on skating and talent over size and character. Another reason to solidify the blue line from top to bottom and not a couple good players and filler the rest of the way. If we're going to end up like the St. Louis Blues up front in terms of a talent ceiling, we need to be rock solid in every aspect of the game from the top of the lineup to the bottom of it including goaltending to have a shot.
But the only way for this team to get that superstar in the draft is to tank. There is no way that this team gets a bona fide superstar and not a Couture/Hertl/Marleau type complementary piece by picking between 6-14. Those guys that get picked at that level could be with the right development but it is unlikely they would get it here.
But the only way for this team to get that superstar in the draft is to tank. There is no way that this team gets a bona fide superstar and not a Couture/Hertl/Marleau type complementary piece by picking between 6-14. Those guys that get picked at that level could be with the right development but it is unlikely they would get it here.
If you do go the JT route, you give away some of the complimentary pieces to acquire the superstar. One of the notes I have on winning teams is that they build up their stable of complimentary players before a win. Either they win with them or use them as trade fodder. The next question to ask is "How deep is the Sharks' stable?" Do they have a Shaw, Saad, Voynov, Muzzin, Toffoli or Marchand waiting in the wings?
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
hockeyball
Registered User
- Nov 10, 2007
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I still think Hertl has the potential to be a super-star, but it's slim. Beyond that I agree. Small chance Burns goes back to D and clicks with the new system and is a #1, but again, slim odds.
That's about it though.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Yeah, and I don't like those odds. Chicago would be nothing without Toews and Kane. LA would be nothing without Doughty.
hockeyball
Registered User
- Nov 10, 2007
- 21,557
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Yah me either. They certainly are not going to get that player with Thornton and Marleau still here (won't draft high enough). They'd have to wait until their deals are up in 3 seasons, let them walk for nothing, tank hard for a few years. So figure minimum 5 years before you maybe have a super-star stud rookie, and longer if that player needs to develop (like Hall, RNH, Landeskog, etc). Trade both now and you could potentially have that player next season, or the season after.
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