Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition 5.0 - So now what?

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Neither would accept that (esp EE) so why waste time?

To be fair to that poster, both sides may be looking to hit the reset button and re-enter next years free agency class. Much more likely JB of course because of the nature of his 2016.

As I said yesterday, it wouldn't surprise me if he signed something similar to the Cespedes deal from last year, with a lower annual average. A team could get creative.

2017: $19MM, 2018: $16.5MM, 2019: TO-$16MM ($3MM buy-out)

With an opt out after 2017. That way, the risk is split down the middle. The contract for '17 is fair, and essentially can operate as a one year deal. However, the player gets the added security of the next year if he does get injured or plays poorly. The drop in salary for 2018 acts as an incentive for the player to want to opt out if he has anything close to a good year. While the team gets what they wanted all long with a short term deal (2 years + TO).

As for Edwin, I have to think he gets his money and term from somebody this offseason. But I then the laws of economics alone make you wonder who? The majority of the teams that are trying to compete in 2017 already have a 1B\DH combo in place, except for Texas, Houston, and Toronto (low Demand). And couple that with the fact that there are still eight other 1B\DH types with wRC+ projected over 100 still available in addition to Edwin (Alvarez, Trumbo, Lind, Carter, Butler, Napoli, Moss, Morrison) (high Supply).

 

[showtime8]

At the end of the season, there was a lot of talk that the Blue Jays needed to get better with striking out so often, they needed to get some more speed and contact into the line-up and they should be better defensively.

Okay, so they picked up Morales who should be better with the strikeouts and more contact. Pearce should be in a platoon because he crushes lefties.

So the questions are, where is Pearce going to play the most often? Left field or first?

Also, what type of speed is out there right now? Unless they feel that someone can do something with Pompey's bat?

 

[phillipmike]

At the end of the season, there was a lot of talk that the Blue Jays needed to get better with striking out so often, they needed to get some more speed and contact into the line-up and they should be better defensively.

Okay, so they picked up Morales who should be better with the strikeouts and more contact. Pearce should be in a platoon because he crushes lefties.

So the questions are, where is Pearce going to play the most often? Left field or first?

Also, what type of speed is out there right now? Unless they feel that someone can do something with Pompey's bat?

Well when they signed him they had him in mind to play 80% of the games at 1B and Smoak working in the rest. If the Jays care about defensive they would only use Pearce in the OF if they absolutely need to. Pearce is a good defender at 1B and 2B.

 

[showtime8]

Well when they signed him they had him in mind to play 80% of the games at 1B and Smoak working in the rest. If the Jays care about defensive they would only use Pearce in the OF if they absolutely need to. Pearce is a good defender at 1B and 2B.

So if the intention was that 80% of the time that Pearce would be at first, then there should be no talks with Bautista or Edwin anymore. All of that should be put to bed, regardless of if the Jays have the money.

Last year, when the Jays were crawling into the playoffs, we all wanted to get better run production and "small ball".

Bautista isn't capable of that, his defense is gone and his once golden arm is starting to diminish. He can still hit bombs, but I just don't see a spot for him.

Edwin can be very valuable if he's a 1B, but if the intention was that Pearce/Morales were going to be the pairing, then there's no room for him either. It hurts to say that, but those conversations should be put to bed. No?

 

[BlueForever]

Sign Bautista to his qualifying contract (17.2) with team option for year two.

 

[showtime8]

Sign Bautista to his qualifying contract (17.2) with team option for year two.

And play him where?

 

[BlueForever]

And play him where?

If he could play 3B in the past, he could definitely be a 1B. Play him 90 games at 1B, split the rest at DH and OF when needed. Put him at the top of your lineup.

 

[showtime8]

If he could play 3B in the past, he could definitely be a 1B. Play him 90 games at 1B, split the rest at DH and OF when needed. Put him at the top of your lineup.

If he doesn't have the legs to play in the field, why would he be at the top of your line-up? I understand that your lead-off man should be more focused with his OBP, but once he gets on the bases, what is Bautista going to do?

So if he plays 90 games at 1B, you move Pearce to LF? And the other games in which he's going to DH, you are essentially keeping Morales on the bench. He's played a total of 16 games at 1st in the last 2 years and 5 games in the outfield in the last 2 years.

I just don't see the fit for Bautista.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Well when they signed him they had him in mind to play 80% of the games at 1B and Smoak working in the rest. If the Jays care about defensive they would only use Pearce in the OF if they absolutely need to. Pearce is a good defender at 1B and 2B.

And yet, he's listed on the Blue Jays official 40-man roster as an outfielder. I think the talk about him playing the bulk of the games at 1B may have been some misdirection.

 

[phillipmike]

So if the intention was that 80% of the time that Pearce would be at first, then there should be no talks with Bautista or Edwin anymore. All of that should be put to bed, regardless of if the Jays have the money.

Last year, when the Jays were crawling into the playoffs, we all wanted to get better run production and "small ball".

Bautista isn't capable of that, his defense is gone and his once golden arm is starting to diminish. He can still hit bombs, but I just don't see a spot for him.

Edwin can be very valuable if he's a 1B, but if the intention was that Pearce/Morales were going to be the pairing, then there's no room for him either. It hurts to say that, but those conversations should be put to bed. No?

I completely agree though i think the Jays are wrestling with the idea. I believe they always knew Bautista was gone and EE was likely gone after they signed Morales and for sure gone now that they signed Pearce.

But now Bautista and EE could go for bargains now to return. If i am them then i certainly dont know what to do.

I have their opinion. Move on from the mid 30 guys and start the new wave but that is when you thought they were going to get big deals - now you are potentially staring at these guys on potential 1-2 year deals which offers very little risk to the team long term. So you start to talk yourself into ideas that you didnt want to touch a few months ago. Maybe Pearce can play LF full time, maybe Bautista was only bad in RF because of injury - a slighted and angry Bautista could be a monster, maybe EE can play 1B everyday? Essentially you could have the same lineup as 2016 but with Morales and Pearce which is much better than Saunders in LF and Smoak as DH/1B.

A lot of things change now if Bautista and EE are available on short term deals;

Option 1: Let them both walk, have 3 first round picks and try to get younger, more left handed and faster. Extend the window

OR

Option 2: Bring back Jays icons who can help your 2017 chances at winning and potentially get pick(s) if EE signs a deal over 50M next off-season and you can still retool next off-season to extend your window. Very little downside in this option except defense in the corner OF.

It is a VERY tough decision in my mind. The Jays are no doubt a better team in 2017 with a motivated EE and Bautista.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

So if the intention was that 80% of the time that Pearce would be at first, then there should be no talks with Bautista or Edwin anymore. All of that should be put to bed, regardless of if the Jays have the money.

Last year, when the Jays were crawling into the playoffs, we all wanted to get better run production and "small ball".

Bautista isn't capable of that, his defense is gone and his once golden arm is starting to diminish. He can still hit bombs, but I just don't see a spot for him.

Edwin can be very valuable if he's a 1B, but if the intention was that Pearce/Morales were going to be the pairing, then there's no room for him either. It hurts to say that, but those conversations should be put to bed. No?

Actually, I think it was a very loud contingent, not the majority, who craved more small ball.

 

[theaub]

Weirdly, people didn't crave small ball when they smashed the everloving **** out of the Rangers.

 

[Discoverer]

Weirdly, people didn't crave small ball when they smashed the everloving **** out of the Rangers.

For some people, any negative result was the wrong choice to begin with.

 

[phillipmike]

And yet, he's listed on the Blue Jays official 40-man roster as an outfielder. I think the talk about him playing the bulk of the games at 1B may have been some misdirection.

Gibby said if the season started today then Smoak and Pearce would platoon 1B. I dont think Gibby would say this early in the off-season that Smoak is a bench player to discourage him rather leave the door open that if he plays well he could be in line for more than a bench role when he said they would "platoon." That being said i dont think Gibby is stupid enough to see the Pearce crushes lefties but also hits righties better than Smoak which makes me think Pearce is at least your 1A guy at 1st.



The way the Jays went after Fowler and are going after a lefty bat to platoon with Upton i suspect that they wanted Pearce to play 1B with Smoak sprinkling in there. A solid starting (wanted Fowler now will be someone else) LF or RF and Upton/his platoon partner (Bruce?) in the other corner. I think they had Pearce playing the OF if need be but he would be primarily a 1B and MAYBE 2B but i read tweet that they may keep him to 1B to start the season because of his forearm injury as they dont want him throwing with his injury.

Ill try to find the tweet.

 

[Discoverer]

I remember those things being said too, but do you think you could try to find the tweets?

 

[Garlando]

Pretty detailed top 10 Jays prospect list for this season just released on 361 Prospect, one of my favorite resources!

https://prospect361.com/al-team-prospects/Toronto-Blue-Jays/

 

[Loosie]

Weirdly, people didn't crave small ball when they smashed the everloving **** out of the Rangers.

And when 'small ball' fails they will ask where the dingerz are.

 

[Walshy7]

I remember those things being said too, but do you think you could try to find the tweets?

Shapiro also said it on tim and sid about a week ago, I may be a way to drive EE's price down a little if the bluejays are his only legit option "oh we are going with smoak/pearce and looking for a OF" EE meets their price and all of a sudden pearce is totally an OF, probably grasping at straws here though because I know nothing about pearce OF vs 1B in terms of his best position

 

[Walshy7]

And when 'small ball' fails they will ask where the dingerz are.

so what we need is "small dingerz ball"

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Weirdly, people didn't crave small ball when they smashed the everloving **** out of the Rangers.

It is really amusing to seeing as for all the rage about the Jays not playing small ball we lost because the Indians hit for more power then we did in the CS.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Gibby said if the season started today then Smoak and Pearce would platoon 1B. I dont think Gibby would say this early in the off-season that Smoak is a bench player to discourage him rather leave the door open that if he plays well he could be in line for more than a bench role when he said they would "platoon." That being said i dont think Gibby is stupid enough to see the Pearce crushes lefties but also hits righties better than Smoak which makes me think Pearce is at least your 1A guy at 1st.

Ill try to find the tweet.

The way the Jays went after Fowler and are going after a lefty bat to platoon with Upton i suspect that they wanted Pearce to play 1B with Smoak sprinkling in there. A solid starting (wanted Fowler now will be someone else) LF or RF and Upton/his platoon partner (Bruce?) in the other corner. I think they had Pearce playing the OF if need be but he would be primarily a 1B and MAYBE 2B but i read tweet that they may keep him to 1B to start the season because of his forearm injury as they dont want him throwing with his injury.

Ill try to find the tweet.

If I was in Shapiro or Atkins' position, I would tell Gibby to say exactly what he said. Not to discourage Smoak or anything like that, but rather to operate in free agency with more leverage. i.e. float it to the media that I don't need a 1B\DH because those positions are filled. Just like Texas said they're going internal to fill their hole at 1B, and Houston said they are out.

 

[Doc300c]

Having Joey and EE back on this team at a discounted price I would be all over it. We have the defensive replacements necessary for late innings in Upton and Carrera. Should not be an issue.

If we're going to pull him for better defense in the late innings whats the point of having a big bat start there if at the end of the game when we need a home run hes sitting on the bench?

Sorry for the delay..

 

[Discoverer]

If I was in Shapiro or Atkins' position, I would tell Gibby to say exactly what he said. Not to discourage Smoak or anything like that, but rather to operate in free agency with more leverage. i.e. float it to the media that I don't need a 1B\DH because those positions are filled. Just like Texas said they're going internal to fill their hole at 1B, and Houston said they are out.

Absolutely. Most of the things said at this time of year are negotiation tactics.

I still really want them to find a way to sign Valbuena.

 

[showtime8]

Actually, I think it was a very loud contingent, not the majority, who craved more small ball.

In the season ending press conference, the questions were asked about the style of play and if it had to change.

I remember Gibbons saying that they'd like to get more speed and more contact in the line-up next year.

I'm trying to find the clip right now.

I know that at the end of the season, you have to go through the motions about what to say to the fanbase to reasure them that they'll be even better next year, but I somewhat believe that they have to get better in the terms of contact. And that contact doesn't necessarily mean small ball.

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to Jon Paul Morosi, Jose Bautista's best move might be to stay put and re-sign with the Toronto Blue Jays.

http://m.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article/211007278/jose-bautista-blue-jays-might-be-the-best-fit/

The Yankees and Giants aren't seriously pursuing Bautista, sources say. The Dodgers probably will add an outfielder before Opening Day, but they are more likely to do so via trade, especially after the anticipated nine-figure splurge on Kenley Jansen and Justin Turner.

So which teams are looking for a corner-outfield bat? The Phillies and White Sox each have needs at the position, but neither is ready to win a championship in 2017. And Bautista, who has yet to play in a World Series, wants badly to play for a contender.

Bautista's market is complicated by the facts that: (a) teams other than Toronto face the loss of a Draft pick by signing him; and (b) those same clubs can't recoup a Draft pick through the qualifying offer system next offseason because of the new Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Which brings us back to the Blue Jays. They extended Bautista a $17.2 million qualifying offer as free agency began. He rejected it. But he could go back, just as Dexter Fowler did with the Cubs last offseason.

For all the antipathy Bautista has encountered in Baltimore and Texas, he remains beloved across Canada. He was one of the seminal figures behind baseball's resurgence in the country. Bautista's clinching home run against the Rangers in Game 5 of the 2015 AL Division Series was an iconic moment in franchise history. Those things matter -- from a public-relations standpoint, if nothing else -- for a team that saw a year-over-year attendance increase of nearly 600,000 fans this year.

Beyond that, Bautista is a fit for the roster. Even in a down year, his .817 OPS ranked 15th among qualifying Major League outfielders -- ahead of Jay Bruce, George Springer, Bryce Harper and Matt Kemp. If the Jays had to play a game today, their outfield would consist of Melvin Upton Jr., Kevin Pillar and Ezequiel Carrera. Offensively, at least, that's not a World Series-calibre group, especially without Edwin Encarnacion's 42 home runs anchoring the lineup.