nylander/rielly vs aho/slavin

[Hokinaittii]

How many times do I have to say this before you guys get it. I don't care what Nylander did in his d+2 year. Of course Nylander wasn't a top line player in his draft+2 season. He was a player with top line potential which I have said countless times about Aho as well. The point I am making is that Aho was not a top line player last season.

He surely played like one. He was their 2nd best in points and was probably their best overall player with Slavin. Aho did a lot more than his point totals would suggest to those who didn't follow him closely.

 

[Sundinisagod]

I think to show how even this really is, outside of HF voting, you look to how teams and fans of teams would react.

My guess is if this trade was offered to Leaf's fans and Leaf's brass, they'd say no to it. Also, Canes fans and Cane's brass would also say no to this trade as well. That alone tells me this is pretty even.

It would be beyond painful to part with Nylander, but this move would make the Leafs a better team imho.

 

[Atomos2]

He surely played like one. He was their 2nd best in points and was probably their best overall player with Slavin. Aho did a lot more than his point totals would suggest to those who didn't follow him closely.

He played like Nylander did in his draft +2 year. Played well and with a lot of promise on both ends of the ice but did not put up the numbers that most successful top line players did last year. I'm pretty sure if Aho got 49 points again next year, you guys won't be calling him a top line player.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

He played like Nylander did in his draft +2 year. Played well and with a lot of promise on both ends of the ice but did not put up the numbers that most successful top line players did last year. I'm pretty sure if Aho got 49 points again next year, you guys won't be calling him a top line player.

Fortunately for Aho, hockey is played on the ice, not the stat sheet. If he repeated his level of play from last year, he'd again be a first line player.

Unless you think Conor Sheary was better than Nylander last season? Just look at his production! And of course Scheifele, Backstrom, Seguin, and Draisaitl are all better than Matthews.

This whole stat watching thing does make it a lot easier to evaluate players. Maybe you are on to something.

 

[Atomos2]

Fortunately for Aho, hockey is played on the ice, not the stat sheet. If he repeated his level of play from last year, he'd again be a first line player.

Unless you think Conor Sheary was better than Nylander last season? Just look at his production! And of course Scheifele, Backstrom, Seguin, and Draisaitl are all better than Matthews.

This whole stat watching thing does make it a lot easier to evaluate players. Maybe you are on to something.

Maybe you are onto something. Hockey is played on the ice after all. If Aho is a first line player, then Komarov should be as well. So should Brown. Both are better than Aho defensively and were key players on the shutdown line and PK. And since no one should be stat watching, they're offensive contribution doesn't matter and they should be considered top line players as well. Why stop there? Maybe Hyman should be one too. I bet if we asked Babcock, he'd vote in his favor.

 

[loyaltotheend]

BBA is a Leafs fans as well as a Canes fan. It's curious that the one opinion that you agree with is the "objective one". No objective evidence has been provided. Heck, the thread opened up by a Leafs fan saying that he'd take Rielly over Slavin because "He is younger" (hint: he ain't).

There are as many Leafs fans that voted for Slavin/Aho as there are voting for Nylander/Rielly. That subjective opinion from the Leafs should say all there is to say about this poll. It's not close, could lock at this point.

Aho is on track to match Nylander's numbers. He's a year earlier, let's see what he does next year. Rielly is a solid top-pairing guy. Slavin is a stud all-around #1.

Why are you complaining about "Leafs fan voting for Leafs" as an option when there is a "Canes fan picking Canes" option? There is no bias in perfectly balanced options.

Did you somehow misinterpret my post as me saying the canes players are bad, or something else you're projecting on to me? Or are you just as bad as this atmos guy, and anything except total capitulation to your point of view is an attack on you?

The only reason people try to include "leaf fan voting" is so that if the results don't go the way they hope, they can just say it's only because leaf fans voted for their guy. I'd say it's childish, but that barely covers it.

Anyway, like I said, the reality is Nylander and Slavin are each a little better right now.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Maybe you are onto something. Hockey is played on the ice after all. If Aho is a first line player, then Komarov should be as well. So should Brown. Both are better than Aho defensively and were key players on the shutdown line and PK. And since no one should be stat watching, they're offensive contribution doesn't matter and they should be considered top line players as well. Why stop there? Maybe Hyman should be one too. I bet if we asked Babcock, he'd vote in his favor.

You heard it hear first folks. Connor Brown = Sebastian Aho.

 

[Atomos2]

You heard it hear first folks. Connor Brown = Sebastian Aho.

Don't forget Zach Hyman and Komarov.

Komarov = Brown = Aho = Hyman = 1st line wingers. Man it's pretty easy to be a first liner in the NHL.

 

[ijuka]

Don't forget Zach Hyman and Komarov.

Komarov = Brown = Aho = Hyman = 1st line wingers. Man it's pretty easy to be a first liner in the NHL.

Not sure why it's such a tough pill to swallow that Aho's projecting better than Nylander already despite being so much younger.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Don't forget Zach Hyman and Komarov.

Komarov = Brown = Aho = Hyman = 1st line wingers. Man it's pretty easy to be a first liner in the NHL.

Yup. And Draisaitl and Scheifele > Matthews.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Nylander & Rielly AINEC

 

[MMANumminen]

Aho>Nylander
Slavin>Really

Easy one

 

[Hokinaittii]

Don't forget Zach Hyman and Komarov.

Komarov = Brown = Aho = Hyman = 1st line wingers. Man it's pretty easy to be a first liner in the NHL.

None of those players have the balance of great offensive and defensive instincts like Aho so they wouldn't last long in the 1st line.

Maybe you are onto something. Hockey is played on the ice after all. If Aho is a first line player, then Komarov should be as well. So should Brown. Both are better than Aho defensively and were key players on the shutdown line and PK. And since no one should be stat watching, they're offensive contribution doesn't matter and they should be considered top line players as well. Why stop there? Maybe Hyman should be one too. I bet if we asked Babcock, he'd vote in his favor.

Brown I would give the edge defensively but Komarov is debatable. I see Aho being better in stripping pucks, covering passing lanes and in general position himself better defensively than those two. Sure, defence requires a lot strength and stamina also and there Aho is behind the two. But despite Aho not being physicality there yet, his upperbody strength is one of the strongest for his size and age I've seen. You wouldn't believe how well Aho is able to handle himself in corners and actually come out with the puck.

I find it quite amusing that you've been the only one from your team trying to justify how Aho doesn't belong into 1st line. Usually if that would be debatable, we'd see more Leafs fans arguing over it, not just one guy.

 

[Atomos2]

Not sure why it's such a tough pill to swallow that Aho's projecting better than Nylander already despite being so much younger.

If you're not gonna bother to read the discussion, don't bother posting about. I've already addressed the issue 3 times.

 

[Atomos2]

None of those players have the balance of great offensive and defensive instincts like Aho so they wouldn't last long in the 1st line.

Brown I would give the edge defensively but Komarov is debatable. I see Aho being better in stripping pucks, covering passing lanes and in general position himself better defensively than those two. Sure, defence requires a lot strength and stamina also and there Aho is behind the two. But despite Aho not being physicality there yet, his upperbody strength is one of the strongest for his size and age I've seen. You wouldn't believe how well Aho is able to handle himself in corners and actually come out with the puck.

I find it quite amusing that you've been the only one from your team trying to justify how Aho doesn't belong into 1st line. Usually if that would be debatable, we'd see more Leafs fans arguing over it, not just one guy.

How can you prove offensive ability without looking up stats? Brown put up his fair share of offense last year. How would you like measuring offense without looking at stats. After all, as Whiskey said, we shouldn't be stat watchers.

As for the second part, I already put up a poll on if Aho's 49 pts is acceptable for a first liner and it was closed relatively quickly with the majority voting no. I have maintained that Aho has great potential and next year he could be a legit first liner. But in today's NHL, 49 points isn't considered first line calibre offernse. At least not successful first line calibre offense. Sure there may be first liners that may get those total but that would be considered a failed season on their part.

 

[Atomos2]

Yup. And Draisaitl and Scheifele > Matthews.

Last season? Sure. I agree

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

How can you prove offensive ability without looking up stats? Brown put up his fair share of offense last year. How would you like measuring offense without looking at stats. After all, as Whiskey said, we shouldn't be stat watchers.

Well, there really is no point in "proving" how good a player is to somebody who doesn't watch them play.

Yes, production statistics can be a useful tool to help in evaluating a player's offensive ability, but it must be a balanced approach. You can't just look at raw numbers, especially if you're only looking at one season of data. Considering things like teammates, role, ice time, QoC etc are useful adjustments. When dealing with a player with only one season playing for an offensively starved team, it's also helpful to look at their performance in international play and other leagues. Aho's production in international play over the past 18 months is not only "1st line caliber", it's "all star" caliber, especially for a teenager

14p in 7 WJC games at 18
18p in 21 WC games at 18/19
60p in 59 FEL games at 18 (next closest teammate had 47p in 68gp)
2nd on his NHL team in points as a 19 year old.

Unfortunately, you see 49 points and decide that's enough information to declare that he's not 1st line caliber.

As for the second part, I already put up a poll on if Aho's 49 pts is acceptable for a first liner and it was closed relatively quickly with the majority voting no. I have maintained that Aho has great potential and next year he could be a legit first liner. But in today's NHL, 49 points isn't considered first line calibre offernse. At least not successful first line calibre offense. Sure there may be first liners that may get those total but that would be considered a failed season on their part.

No, that's not the poll you made. You asked if 49 points would be enough to be a first line on 'my team'. Not surprising that you don't see the difference there, but people replied telling you that it's not enough information to make that determination.

Last season? Sure. I agree

I think Matthews was better than both. I think he was better than Eichel as well.

Ehlers > Nylander / Marner?
Sheary > Nylander / Marner?

At the end of the day, this poll is lopsided heavily in the Hurricanes favor, as the results indicate.

 

[Atomos2]

Well, there really is no point in "proving" how good a player is to somebody who doesn't watch them play.

Yes, production statistics can be a useful tool to help in evaluating a player's offensive ability, but it must be a balanced approach. You can't just look at raw numbers, especially if you're only looking at one season of data. Considering things like teammates, role, ice time, QoC etc are useful adjustments. When dealing with a player with only one season playing for an offensively starved team, it's also helpful to look at their performance in international play and other leagues. Aho's production in international play over the past 18 months is not only "1st line caliber", it's "all star" caliber, especially for a teenager

14p in 7 WJC games at 18
18p in 21 WC games at 18/19
60p in 59 FEL games at 18 (next closest teammate had 47p in 68gp)
2nd on his NHL team in points as a 19 year old.

Unfortunately, you see 49 points and decide that's enough information to declare that he's not 1st line caliber.

Not first line calibre last year yes. Being 2nd on a poor offensive team in scoring isn't much of an accomplishment. Someone has to be second no matter how low or high scoring the team is. I guess to you Jeff Skinner is generational because he managed to reach 60 points when a first liner like Aho could only get 49.

If it was so impossible to reach 60 on the Canes, why was Skinner able to do it?

I get what you mean with the extra stats and how they provide context and allows for a bit of leeway. But they're not supposed to make your entire argument for you. There is a limit to how much leeway you can give the comparison before its start being ridiculous.

 

[Garthinater]

Atmos isn't saying aho will never be a first line player. He's just saying that 49 points isn't 1st line offensive production (which some poster claimed was the case) which can also be backed by the poll where 18 people agreed with atmos against 2 who disagreed. Not sure why that's so complicated for some

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Atmos isn't saying aho will never be a first line player. He's just saying that 49 points isn't 1st line offensive production (which some poster claimed was the case) which can also be backed by the poll where 18 people agreed with atmos against 2 who disagreed. Not sure why that's so Complicated for some

So we should use HF polls as the final arbiter? If so, then Atmos's position in this poll is wrong, correct? Or do we get to pick and choose what polls matter?

Seriously though, anyone who uses points alone as a determining factor while ignoring teams, line mates, system, usage, etc, is being about as simplistic as one can be.

 

[major major]

49 points is actually about 60th best among wingers. I haven't checked last year but in years past it was close to that.

So Sebastian Aho was borderline 1st/2nd line as a 19 year old, according to that criteria.

 

[Atomos2]

Atmos isn't saying aho will never be a first line player. He's just saying that 49 points isn't 1st line offensive production (which some poster claimed was the case) which can also be backed by the poll where 18 people agreed with atmos against 2 who disagreed. Not sure why that's so complicated for some

These people hear what they want to hear and just want someone to argue with. I've said Aho has top line potential on more than one occasion. I haven't even once denied that he could be better than Nylander in the future. My argument is based on Aho's 49 point season last year not being top line calibre. For some reason that's unreasonable to say as its apparently expected that a top line production of 49 points is acceptable and deemed a success in today's NHL.

 

[Garthinater]

So we should use HF polls as the final arbiter? If so, then Atmos's position in this poll is wrong, correct? Or do we get to pick and choose what polls matter?

Seriously though, anyone who uses points alone as a determining factor while ignoring teams, line mates, system, usage, etc, is being about as simplistic as one can be.

No I agree, hf polls should 100% be taken with a grain of salt. I've seen polls that are way off!

I'm not (and I don't think atmos is) saying that aho wasn't a first line player.

But a poster previously stated that aho produced offense at a first line rate. That has nothing to do with "teams, line mates, system, usage, etc," but solely on offensive production. 9/10 people polled said 49 points isn't very good for a 1st line player offensively. That's it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

70% of the people responding to this poll picked Canes.

I guess we're done here.

 

[Plural]

70% of the people responding to this poll picked Canes.

I guess we're done here.

Did you forget to close to poll?