nylander/rielly vs aho/slavin

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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So if we only take goal scoring into account, I guess Connor Brown is a top line scorer and better than Mitch Marner. The goal posts remain where they've always been. Aho has 49 points. Those numbers aren't strong enough to put him in top line category. You're the one attempting to move goal posts

If you're just stat watching, you might not think he's a top line player. Until you look at his performance relative to his team. Aho was 2nd on his team in scoring. Nylander trailed 3 of his teammates in points/gp.

You can also look to his performance in international play, where he's arguably been Finland's top forward over the past 2 years at both the junior and men's levels. How many players can put up a point per game as a teenager at the WC's? The list is very short and very elite. He just turned 20 a month ago . . .

Everything about his play, his IQ, and his resume screams top line player.
 

Atomos2

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If you're just stat watching, you might not think he's a top line player. Until you look at his performance relative to his team. Aho was 2nd on his team in scoring. Nylander trailed 3 of his teammates in points/gp.

You can also look to his performance in international play, where he's arguably been Finland's top forward over the past 2 years at both the junior and men's levels. How many players can put up a point per game as a teenager at the WC's? The list is very short and very elite. He just turned 20 a month ago . . .

Everything about his play, his IQ, and his resume screams top line player.

Stat watching does and should play a role. You're not gonna make a claim that Aho > Matthews. Why is that? If Matthews put up the same points as Aho, how would that affect the comparison?
 

TheDoldrums

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Aho has matched or exceeded Nylander's numbers at pretty much every level.

They've never played in the same league before the NHL. How are you comparing the SHL/AHL with the Liiga?

If we want to talk hyperbole with no context, Nylander wasn't even good enough to make the NHL when he was at Aho's age.

Literally the post before this one you called last year Nylander's second season.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Stat watching does and should play a role. You're not gonna make a claim that Aho > Matthews. Why is that? If Matthews put up the same points as Aho, how would that affect the comparison?

I wouldn't make that claim because I've watched both players extensively, and it's evident that Matthews is the better player. If Aho were a Penguin and played with Sidney Crosby and put up 60+ points, while Matthews was a Coyote and scored only 55 points, I'd still tell you that Matthews is the better player.

Believe me when I tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Aho's teenage international resume is just about as impressive as it gets, puts him in the same company as guys like Matthews, McDavid, Eichel, and Laine. He's 2nd all time in points as a teenager at the WC, behind only Paul Kariya.
 

Atomos2

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I wouldn't make that claim because I've watched both players extensively, and it's evident that Matthews is the better player. If Aho were a Penguin and played with Sidney Crosby and put up 60+ points, while Matthews was a Coyote and scored only 55 points, I'd still tell you that Matthews is the better player.

Believe me when I tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Aho's teenage international resume is just about as impressive as it gets, puts him in the same company as guys like Matthews, McDavid, Eichel, and Laine. He's 2nd all time in points as a teenager at the WC, behind only Paul Kariya.

Oh, I see, so that's the only time points matter. Apparently you only value certain criteria when it suits you. Offensive production, only valuable when it suits your need. Defensive criteria, "hockey IQ" a non quantifiable trait, becomes more important because it suits your criteria. If Aho is a top line player. Let him prove it. Let him prove it in a manner that makes it unquestionable. Don't make me look at a measly 49pt season(which yes is good for a rookie) call it a top line calibre season and then claim I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a weak criteria.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Oh, I see, so that's the only time points matter. Apparently you only value certain criteria when it suits you. Offensive production, only valuable when it suits your need. Defensive criteria, "hockey IQ" a non quantifiable trait, becomes more important because it suits your criteria. If Aho is a top line player. Let him prove it.

Haha. HAHAHAHA.
Atomos: "Points are all that matters"
Me: "No, but if you feel that way, look at his production at the international level"
Atomos "Yea, but now points don't matter anymore"


I bring up his production because it highlights just how elite he is when in a slightly better situation to produce offense. He was far and away Finland's most dangerous forward at the WC as a 19 year (as was Nylander for Sweden). You seem content to ignore context. A "measly" 49 point season was good enough for 2nd on his team - Matthews was the only rookie who ranked higher on his team in scoring.

Let him prove it in a manner that makes it unquestionable. Don't make me look at a measly 49pt season(which yes is good for a rookie) call it a top line calibre season and then claim I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a weak criteria.

You can say that again.
 

Finlandia WOAT

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Well done to Aho for doing well in a short 10 game segment. He was a top line player for Finland in an international competition. But then again, so was Stephan Da Costa. Again, is 49 points a top line forward calibre season. Should we take this discussion to the general public?

.

[mod]

Aho, a 19 year old, put up 49 points on an offensively inept team with decent (not great) players and some PP time on a mediocre unit- he wasn't a mainstay on the PP until the last 20-30 games of the season.

Nylander, a 20 year old, put up 61 points while playing on an offensively elite team with a 40 goal scoring center and a lot of PP time on a great PP.

And a "top line" distinction shouldn't take into account PP time (after all, top line literally refers to ES ice time distribution)- and at ES, the 19 year old finished either equal to or slightly behind Nylander. It's on the PP that Nylander separated himself from Aho.

Are you going to argue that 30 ES points isn't top line, but 35 is?
 
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TheDoldrums

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Aho, a 19 year old, put up 49 points on an offensively inept team with decent (not great) players and some PP time on a mediocre unit- he wasn't a mainstay on the PP until the last 20-30 games of the season.

Nylander, a 20 year old, put up 61 points while playing on an offensively elite team with a 40 goal scoring center and a lot of PP time on a great PP.

PP time

Nylander - 2:21
Aho - 2:13

8 seconds are the difference between "some" and "a lot" of PP time?
 

kelsier

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I wouldn't make that claim because I've watched both players extensively, and it's evident that Matthews is the better player. If Aho were a Penguin and played with Sidney Crosby and put up 60+ points, while Matthews was a Coyote and scored only 55 points, I'd still tell you that Matthews is the better player.

Believe me when I tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Aho's teenage international resume is just about as impressive as it gets, puts him in the same company as guys like Matthews, McDavid, Eichel, and Laine. He's 2nd all time in points as a teenager at the WC, behind only Paul Kariya.

Well said and all valid. The hockey world still sees him as someone who had a nice NHL rookie campaign and could one day turn into something good, yet most are not aware of how he got where he is today and view him as some sleeper kid who got drafted in the second round. Aho's been riding heavily in the shadow of other great Finnish prospects like Laine for instance. There'd be far more hype if the country was producing the amount of talent it is today. Nevertheless, he's accomplished these things without having to rely on anyone while receiving little credit from hockey world when compared to other "soon-to-be-greats". Who knows what becomes of him but you are right pointing out at his resume. It truly is something special and unique. Funny seeing people actually trying to form arguments against facts or saying he needs to prove more. Who doesn't at that age, or are we to believe Laine is perennial 50 goal scorer and Eichel future 90 point Selke winner by default?
 

Daximus

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Really good poll. I like Aho a lot and I'd take Slavin over Reilly personally. But Nylander looks like the best of the bunch here right now.

I'd lean on Carolina's pair because I think Aho will take a big step forward next year and close the gap on Nylander.
 

Atomos2

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[mod]

Aho, a 19 year old, put up 49 points on an offensively inept team with decent (not great) players and some PP time on a mediocre unit- he wasn't a mainstay on the PP until the last 20-30 games of the season.

Nylander, a 20 year old, put up 61 points while playing on an offensively elite team with a 40 goal scoring center and a lot of PP time on a great PP.

And a "top line" distinction shouldn't take into account PP time (after all, top line literally refers to ES ice time distribution)- and at ES, the 19 year old finished either equal to or slightly behind Nylander. It's on the PP that Nylander separated himself from Aho.

Are you going to argue that 30 ES points isn't top line, but 35 is?

Umm last I checked, a powerplay goal is still a goal. But its some fancy question dodging you are doing. ES means nothing except they were able to score 5on5.
 
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Finlandia WOAT

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Umm last I checked, a powerplay goal is still a goal. But its some fancy question dodging you are doing. ES means nothing except they were able to score 5on5.

I explained this in the post you quoted. Now who's dodging questions?
 

LeafingTheWay

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If you're just stat watching, you might not think he's a top line player. Until you look at his performance relative to his team. Aho was 2nd on his team in scoring. Nylander trailed 3 of his teammates in points/gp.

You can also look to his performance in international play, where he's arguably been Finland's top forward over the past 2 years at both the junior and men's levels. How many players can put up a point per game as a teenager at the WC's? The list is very short and very elite. He just turned 20 a month ago . . .

Everything about his play, his IQ, and his resume screams top line player.

Looks like you're stat-watching too :sarcasm:

Nylander had 61 points, tied with Kadri/Marner for 3rd and behind JVR's 62 and Matthews 69. But his unlucky oish% situation was well known by most Leaf fans. His 1st half was entirely unsuistanbly unlucky, but his oish% returned returned to normal in the 2nd half and that's where he showed his regular point production while leading the team in points. Similar to the Kadri situation last year. Kadri had an unlucky oish% 1st half and then bounced back to a normal oish% as a 1C and had a 60 point pace. He then continued his normal oish% and 60 point pace this season with 1Cish usage. That's what's going to happen with Nylander. I find Marner to be the better player going forward but Nylander will be neck-in-neck with Matthews for the team lead in points every year imo.

I agree with what you said about Aho though. He's 100% a top line player and it'll be interesting to see him develop in his 2nd season. All is needed is a top-C for Carolina to succeed long-term and Aho beside that would be lethal similarly to Matthews-Nylander.
 
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Snowsii

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Well done to Aho for doing well in a short 10 game segment. He was a top line player for Finland in an international competition. But then again, so was Stephan Da Costa. Again, is 49 points a top line forward calibre season. Should we take this discussion to the general public?

Also don't bother with the extra nonsense you write. I erase it without reading it anyway.

Do yo know, that one of them is D+2 player and other is D+3 player.. Using your "Goal posts" Nylander wasnt either no where close of being a "top line player" in his d+2 season.. 13 points in 22 games is ~48 points pace.

Though i'm most likely wasting my time as you're the one of the most biased leaf fans, and only answer questions you want to answer..
 
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Atomos2

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Do yo know, that one of them is D+2 player and other is D+3 player.. Using your "Goal posts" Nylander wasnt either no where close of being a "top line player" in his d+2 season.. 13 points in 22 games is ~48 points pace.

How many times do I have to say this before you guys get it. I don't care what Nylander did in his d+2 year. Of course Nylander wasn't a top line player in his draft+2 season. He was a player with top line potential which I have said countless times about Aho as well. The point I am making is that Aho was not a top line player last season.
 

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