Speculation: NJD Offseason Part IV

[Devil X]

They do? We have a very different interpretation of what a goalie issue is.

You think you 2 have differences?!?! Wait till Bleed jumps in this convo!

 

[NJDevs26]

They do? We have a very different interpretation of what a goalie issue is.

Isles - Halak can't stay on the ice, he's only played 50+ twice and has missed two different playoffs
Canes - let's not get Bleed started on bonedust Ward
Flyers - should be obvious by the fact it's a different guy every year
Jackets - see Halak and add in declining numbers every year for the Bob

 

[217 Forever]

Isles - Halak can't stay on the ice, he's only played 50+ twice and has missed two different playoffs
Canes - let's not get Bleed started on bonedust Ward
Flyers - should be obvious by the fact it's a different guy every year
Jackets - see Halak and add in declining numbers every year for the Bob

Carolina is the only one I agree with. Neuvirth was great for Philly both before and after his injury and Mason has been acceptable as a Flyer. Columbus used some other guy who's name I can't spell who played very well, and maybe the Isles have a problem and maybe they don't. Greiss had and is still having a great year.

You don't need the same "big name" guy playing 60+ games/year in order to not have goaltending problems but people can believe what they want to. I've changed a lot of minds in my own circle of friends when it comes to goaltending but I guess it just won't happen here.

 

[dzubrus8]

I love when people always run to the couple of teams that seemingly can't get their goalie situation right when discussing goaltending instead of discussing the other 25 teams that don't have goalie problems.

Totally agreed. Here's the list of NHL teams and their goalie situation:

Anaheim - Gibson and Andersen are fine
Arizona - Mike Smith sucks. They need help because I don't think Domingue is the real deal
Boston - Tuukka and Subban
Buffalo - Lehner is still young. I don't know about Ullmark he doesn't seem to be as good as most thought
Calgary - terrible shape
Carolina - they have Lack and Fleury but Nedeljkovic is the real deal coming up. They're fine
Chicago - Crawford and Darling is no slouch either
Colorado - Varly and Pickard
Columbus - Bobs
Dallas - Lehtonen and Niemi are not a great tandem. They need help there
Detroit - Mrazek and Howard get the job done
Edmonton - they pick up a new goalie every year. Talbot's fine and Laurikainen and Brossoit aren't bad either
Florida - Bobby Lu and Montoya are beasting this year
LA - Quick and Enroth are a top-10 tandem
Minnesota - Dubnyk seems to be a good goalie
Montreal - skip
Nashville - Rinne is good they're not going to be in the market for a goalie
NJ - skip
NYb - Greiss and Halak are good not great. They could use a franchise goalie but I think they are gonna do the 1a 1b dynamic bc of Halak
NYr - Queen and Raanta
Ottawa - Anderson and Hamburglar and O'Connor. They're in good shape
Philly - Mason and Neuvy are good
Pitt - Murray and Fleury
San Jose - Jones and Reimer are good
St. Louis - Elliott and Allen
Tampa - Bishop and Vasilevskiy
Toronto - no good
Vancouver - Miller and Markstrom
Washington - Holtby and Grubauer
Winnipeg - Pavelec and Hellebuyck

I'd say 5-7 teams need a #1 goalie

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

So you're suggesting it's best to sign journeyman, often career-backup goaltenders and hope they have career years?

Maybe I'm the one that's crazy, but I'll take the guy who consistently puts up ~0.925 SV% and a ~2.15GAA.

Some of you people, man.. jesus..

 

[ForeverJerseyGirl]

A team with the first or second overall pick isn't trading it for Schneider. If you want to trade Schneider, you have to find a team that thinks they are an elite goalie away from a contender, not a team like Toronto that is probably planning on tanking again, and then you'd have to try to trade for a young first line forward rather than a draft pick, which would be really hard. That's why I don't think it's realistic to talk about trading Schneider.

 

[Edmonton East]

Totally agreed. Here's the list of NHL teams and their goalie situation:

Anaheim - Gibson and Andersen are fine
Arizona - Mike Smith sucks. They need help because I don't think Domingue is the real deal
Boston - Tuukka and Subban
Buffalo - Lehner is still young. I don't know about Ullmark he doesn't seem to be as good as most thought
Calgary - terrible shape
Carolina - they have Lack and Fleury but Nedeljkovic is the real deal coming up. They're fine
Chicago - Crawford and Darling is no slouch either
Colorado - Varly and Pickard
Columbus - Bobs
Dallas - Lehtonen and Niemi are not a great tandem. They need help there
Detroit - Mrazek and Howard get the job done
Edmonton - they pick up a new goalie every year. Talbot's fine and Laurikainen and Brossoit aren't bad either
Florida - Bobby Lu and Montoya are beasting this year
LA - Quick and Enroth are a top-10 tandem
Minnesota - Dubnyk seems to be a good goalie
Montreal - skip
Nashville - Rinne is good they're not going to be in the market for a goalie
NJ - skip
NYb - Greiss and Halak are good not great. They could use a franchise goalie but I think they are gonna do the 1a 1b dynamic bc of Halak
NYr - Queen and Raanta
Ottawa - Anderson and Hamburglar and O'Connor. They're in good shape
Philly - Mason and Neuvy are good
Pitt - Murray and Fleury
San Jose - Jones and Reimer are good
St. Louis - Elliott and Allen
Tampa - Bishop and Vasilevskiy
Toronto - no good
Vancouver - Miller and Markstrom
Washington - Holtby and Grubauer
Winnipeg - Pavelec and Hellebuyck

I'd say 5-7 teams need a #1 goalie

I count 12. Though I do agree with the premise of goalies being overvalued on this site. That's what happens when you dress these guys up like creme puffs. Takes the skill out of the game and results in a new Joe Blow showing up and posting a .925Sv% every single year.

 

[ForeverJerseyGirl]

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If goalies aren't important, nobody is trading a first or second overall for one.

 

[NJDevs26]

Carolina is the only one I agree with. Neuvirth was great for Philly both before and after his injury and Mason has been acceptable as a Flyer. Columbus used some other guy who's name I can't spell who played very well, and maybe the Isles have a problem and maybe they don't. Greiss had and is still having a great year.

You don't need the same "big name" guy playing 60+ games/year in order to not have goaltending problems but people can believe what they want to. I've changed a lot of minds in my own circle of friends when it comes to goaltending but I guess it just won't happen here.

The problem with your premise is you undervalue durability/reliability and overvalue small size samples. Greiss has been fine for the 30-40 games he's played this year, that doesn't mean you can count on a career vagabond goalie to duplicate that next year when Halak inevitably goes out again. Neuvirth was terrible before this year, now he's a sure thing based on 32 games. The Columbus goalie you speak of played 21 games. Montreal's season tanked after they lost Price, you think it isn't a big deal to them how many games the starter plays?

The anyone can put up numbers argument ignores the fact you're not guaranteed to find one of the random goalies in a given year that'll put up numbers or that they'll duplicate it after.

 

[theoptimist]

I would love Nyquist on this team. Doubt he gets traded, but he'd be prefect!

 

[ForeverJerseyGirl]

I would love Nyquist on this team. Doubt he gets traded, but he'd be prefect!

If Datsyuk leaves (and I think it's hard to believe that he won't at this point), I doubt Detroit would trade Nyquist or Tatar. Datsyuk will leave a hole in their offense; trading Nyquist or Tatar would probably just exacerbate the issue.

 

[217 Forever]

So you're suggesting it's best to sign journeyman, often career-backup goaltenders and hope they have career years?

Maybe I'm the one that's crazy, but I'll take the guy who consistently puts up ~0.925 SV% and a ~2.15GAA.

Some of you people, man.. jesus..

I'm not suggesting that at all but the question was regarding what constitutes a "goaltending issue". You can often (more often that people believe) get your answer from the scrap heap. That's what happens when there are like 50 guys capable of playing goalie in a 30 team league.

I imagine everybody on this board thought The Blues were nuts for bringing Elliott and Allen back as their goalie tandem for the year. Looks pretty good right about now.

I guess because we've had stable goaltending for like the last 100 years that people just can't see it any other way.

 

[hutter]

Totally agreed. Here's the list of NHL teams and their goalie situation:

Anaheim - Gibson and Andersen are fine
Arizona - Mike Smith sucks. They need help because I don't think Domingue is the real deal
Boston - Tuukka and Subban
Buffalo - Lehner is still young. I don't know about Ullmark he doesn't seem to be as good as most thought
Calgary - terrible shape
Carolina - they have Lack and Fleury but Nedeljkovic is the real deal coming up. They're fine
Chicago - Crawford and Darling is no slouch either
Colorado - Varly and Pickard
Columbus - Bobs
Dallas - Lehtonen and Niemi are not a great tandem. They need help there
Detroit - Mrazek and Howard get the job done
Edmonton - they pick up a new goalie every year. Talbot's fine and Laurikainen and Brossoit aren't bad either
Florida - Bobby Lu and Montoya are beasting this year
LA - Quick and Enroth are a top-10 tandem
Minnesota - Dubnyk seems to be a good goalie
Montreal - skip
Nashville - Rinne is good they're not going to be in the market for a goalie
NJ - skip
NYb - Greiss and Halak are good not great. They could use a franchise goalie but I think they are gonna do the 1a 1b dynamic bc of Halak
NYr - Queen and Raanta
Ottawa - Anderson and Hamburglar and O'Connor. They're in good shape
Philly - Mason and Neuvy are good
Pitt - Murray and Fleury
San Jose - Jones and Reimer are good
St. Louis - Elliott and Allen
Tampa - Bishop and Vasilevskiy
Toronto - no good
Vancouver - Miller and Markstrom
Washington - Holtby and Grubauer
Winnipeg - Pavelec and Hellebuyck

I'd say 5-7 teams need a #1 goalie

So many of the goalies you listed as a "number 1" are goalies that many of these teams will in no universe ever win with, short of their getting absurdly hot just in time for a playoff berth, or having one of their two total marquee seasons the year the team is absolutely stacked. The only way to continually compete is to have a guy that will put up, year in and year out, period. I count 20 teams that don't have that.

Goaltending is a strange position. A slightly above average talent could have a monster year and a half, but it might never happen again. In fact, a lot of those same guys go on to put up absolute garbage years. With goalies like Cory, Holtby, Price, and a few other up-and-comers (Mrazek, possibly Bishop), you get year-in year-out superb performance. Quick is the only consistently winning guy that I can think of that doesn't do this, but he is also the most unorthodox goalie in the league today.

 

[JimEIV]

Just as good.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I'm not suggesting that at all but the question was regarding what constitutes a "goaltending issue". You can often (more often that people believe) get your answer from the scrap heap. That's what happens when there are like 50 guys capable of playing goalie in a 30 team league.

I imagine everybody on this board thought The Blues were nuts for bringing Elliott and Allen back as their goalie tandem for the year. Looks pretty good right about now.

I guess because we've had stable goaltending for like the last 100 years that people just can't see it any other way.

I agree, and have agreed, with the notion that most goalies in this league are interchangeable parts. Evidence for that can be found all over the league. I'm not arguing that.

What I don't understand is the absurd readiness of some people to toss aside our goaltender, who is one of the elite few that stand above the rest of the pack. One of the few goalies in the league that can be called a 'game changer.' A rock that gives us wins when we score 2 goals in a game, and a stabilizer that stands behind a young crop of evolving defensemen trying to turn the corner.

We've seen bargain bin goalies pan out and have career years, but we've also seen good teams fall flat on their faces because of scrapheap gambles not panning out.

If you asked Flyers fans if they prefer having to cross their fingers every Spring with Michael Leighton, Ray Emery, Michael Neuvirth or whatever the hell the flavor of the year is... over having a stable, reliable #1 locked up long-term... I think the answer would be rather unanimous.

 

[hutter]

I'm not suggesting that at all but the question was regarding what constitutes a "goaltending issue". You can often (more often that people believe) get your answer from the scrap heap. That's what happens when there are like 50 guys capable of playing goalie in a 30 team league.

I imagine everybody on this board thought The Blues were nuts for bringing Elliott and Allen back as their goalie tandem for the year. Looks pretty good right about now.

I guess because we've had stable goaltending for like the last 100 years that people just can't see it any other way.

Brian Elliot has had one average and below season in his past five, and the rest have been WELL above. Elliot is not the most consistent, but it's very tough to label him "inconsistent" since he made the move to the Blues.

 

[217 Forever]

I agree, and have agreed, with the notion that most goalies in this league are interchangeable parts. Evidence for that can be found all over the league. I'm not arguing that.

What I don't understand is the absurd readiness of some people to toss aside our goaltender, who is one of the elite few that stand above the rest of the pack. One of the few goalies in the league that can be called a 'game changer.' A rock that gives us wins when we score 2 goals in a game, and a stabilizer that stands behind a young crop of evolving defensemen trying to turn the corner.

We've seen bargain bin goalies pan out and have career years, but we've also seen good teams fall flat on their faces because of scrapheap gambles not panning out.

If you asked Flyers fans if they prefer having to cross their fingers every Spring with Michael Leighton, Ray Emery, Michael Neuvirth or whatever the hell the flavor of the year is... over having a stable, reliable #1 locked up long-term... I think the answer would be rather unanimous.

It probably would be unanimous, but the fact remains that they've had some pretty good runs with those no-names. They weren't the reason they lost to Chicago in the Cup and not the reason they just lost to the Caps.

Regarding Schneider, he isn't getting traded period (whether we should think about it could be argued but it isn't happening), and certainly not for the #1 overall pick. Those trades just don't happen and aren't worth discussing.

 

[dzubrus8]

I count 12. Though I do agree with the premise of goalies being overvalued on this site. That's what happens when you dress these guys up like creme puffs. Takes the skill out of the game and results in a new Joe Blow showing up and posting a .925Sv% every single year.

Arizona - definitely agree

Buffalo - they just paid a huge premium for Lehner and he dealt with injuries. he's only 23, they're not going to make a big trade

Calgary - definitely agree

Carolina - they literally have a top-5 goalie prospect. they're not going to trade for a number 1 with Ward still in town

Colorado - Varly is a top-10 goalie. In the last three years he averages a .92 save percentage. Pickard is a really good up-and-comer. Varly being bad is just something people want to believe because he's not at .93 like he was two years ago. But believe me, he's still good.

Dallas - I agree

Edmonton - They have way too many prospects coming and Talbot isn't that bad. he's an average starting goalie numbers wise.

Ottawa - O'Connor is supposed to be a stud and he's still young. Anderson is still getting the job done.

Toronto - agreed

Vancouver and Winnipeg - they have two of the top-five goalie prospects. They're not making moves for a new #1 anytime soon. The 'Peg also has Eric Comrie, who is top-five in some circle.

So that's 4 teams where we agree. Since I'm not going to argue about every team in the league, let's say half the time you're right and half the time I'm right. That's 8.

In case you were wondering, my top five goalie prospects (in no order): Nedeljkovic, Murray, Samsonov, Markstrom, and Hellebuyck.

 

[dzubrus8]

So many of the goalies you listed as a "number 1" are goalies that many of these teams will in no universe ever win with, short of their getting absurdly hot just in time for a playoff berth, or having one of their two total marquee seasons the year the team is absolutely stacked. The only way to continually compete is to have a guy that will put up, year in and year out, period. I count 20 teams that don't have that.

Goaltending is a strange position. A slightly above average talent could have a monster year and a half, but it might never happen again. In fact, a lot of those same guys go on to put up absolute garbage years. With goalies like Cory, Holtby, Price, and a few other up-and-comers (Mrazek, possibly Bishop), you get year-in year-out superb performance. Quick is the only consistently winning guy that I can think of that doesn't do this, but he is also the most unorthodox goalie in the league today.

lol what you're asking for is a top-10 goalie. By definition, 10 teams have top-10 goalies. If you think that means that 20 other teams would make a trade to get one of these top-10 goalies, well, I wouldn't agree with you at all. Nobody throws away a promising prospect and a decent 1b goalie just so they can have a bona fide #1, unless they have some sort of plan.

Besides, there's no history to a goalie getting traded for a top-5 pick.

 

[RememberTheName]

Rico's not a first line center. He just isn't. If you put him at 1LW, he gets the job done. But he doesn't have the playmaking ability to be a 1C nor does he have the faceoff and defensive skills to do the role of a 1C.

Unless one of the top-10 guys is still available, I think NJ should go best center available at 11. Historically, 1st line wingers are in free agency on a yearly basis. Centers never are.

If you didnt realize this yet, but Rico played center this entire year...

 

[Bleedred]

25 teams in the league do not have a goaltender better than Schneider though.

And if we're gonna have the "but Dubnyk, Rinne, Allen and Talbot are all as good or better" argument again, I'll be sitting this one out. Or perhaps Greiss and Neuvirth are this years Dubnyk.

Don't feel like changing clothes after peeing myself.

 

[Emperoreddy]

If you didnt realize this yet, but Rico played center this entire year...

And matched his career highs, which happened when he was playing 1C as a rookie.

 

[217 Forever]

25 teams in the league do not have a goaltender better than Schneider though.

And if we're gonna have the "but Dubnyk, Rinne, Allen and Talbot are all as good or better" argument again, I'll be sitting this one out. Or perhaps Greiss and Neuvirth are this years Dubnyk.

Don't feel like changing clothes after peeing myself.

I'm not sure what's really wrong with Dubnyk but even I would not make an argument that there are 25 goalies better than Schneider. Still though the actual discussion was how many teams aren't at least satisfied with their goaltending situation (i.e. don't consider it a problem) to which I would argue not too many.

 

[Bleedred]

I'm not sure what's really wrong with Dubnyk but even I would not make an argument that there are 25 goalies better than Schneider. Still though the actual discussion was how many teams aren't at least satisfied with their goaltending situation (i.e. don't consider it a problem) to which I would argue not too many.

Dubnyk is okay, he's a dead average starting goaltender in the league. I'd put him in the category with Halak and a few others in the not good enough to be good and not yet bad enough to be in the same category as a Ward, Pavelec, Lehtonen, Howard, Rinne, maybe Mike Smith. And a couple of those guys aren't even their teams starters anymore.

 

[Oneiro]

I don't think there's much empirical evidence to support my enthusiasm for where this team is heading, but the general attitude from guys like Zacha/JQ/Speers/Santini, the fact that some of them are big and have a mean streak, the overall skating and passing quality of the team is getting better...

If you're going to miss the playoffs and not be pissed, you need to see certain signs of a brighter future. I felt like we saw most of them this year.