Legionnaire11
Registered User
Probably would have been better if Poile just said "Neal is a ****head and nobody liked him, but everyone loves Calle". lol
Pre-Game Talk: NHL Expansion Draft (6-18-17 - 6-21-17) VGK Selects James Neal
- Thread starter AintLifeGrand
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Legionnaire11
Registered User
How will we ever replace Neal's 41 points?
I would have rather lost Jarnkrok than Neal for sure, but man Neal is suddenly overrated around here. He's an oft-injured, declining winger about to hit 30 years old. I don't consider him "1st line" talent anymore. We are fine.
I wouldn't even call this a blunder for Poile. Just a weird preference. Let's see how it all plays out. We now have cap space that we wouldn't have had previously.
Yeah, the "first liner" comments are weird, he probably skated on the third line more often than the first line last year. If he gets back to scoring 30 consistently, then yes he's a first line guy, but if last season becomes his new normal then he's a solid second liner. Still a tough loss for a Cup contender, but not the elite sniper that he's touted as either.
Porter Stoutheart
We Got Wood
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Neither player is worth it, we all know that, but some team will pay them that much anyway. Demand exceeds supply in this UFA market. The Preds have a clear need for a C, and more than ample cap space to play with. So the question becomes, what hurts more: overpaying one of these guys by $1.5M or trading whatever other assets for some other (likely imperfect) solution and potentially opening up other holes in the lineup? A trade for Duchene or any player like that who is clearly better than Bonino/Hanzal is going to cost assets you also don't want to use (Fiala, etc).
The team is close. It would suck to roll the dice on Sissons and Jarnkrok, have that not pan out, and look back in hindsight and see $10M of unused cap space that could have mitigated the problem.
That said, they could of course just wait until the trade deadline, and *if* there is a problem, try to address it then. But it becomes another steep pricetag.
FossilFndr
RIP Steve
Definitely did not live up to my expectations. But hard to with a broken finger/hand this season. Neither has PK, I though he was a skating and passing juggernaut.
Just because we now have cap space, doesn't mean that we can effectively use it to upgrade. There are no UFA centers available that are clear upgrades over what we already have, and adding one makes one of our 3C's (Jarnkrok and Sissons) expendable. If the plan was to add a legitimate 2C (or even one of the UFA centers that are available), there would have been no big need to keep Jarnkrok.
Our centers going into next season will most likely be Joey, Sissons, Jarnkrok, Gaudreau/Fisher.
On that note, we really need a good short nickname for Gaudreau, because I am getting sick of trying to spell his name correctly...
Our centers going into next season will most likely be Joey, Sissons, Jarnkrok, Gaudreau/Fisher.
On that note, we really need a good short nickname for Gaudreau, because I am getting sick of trying to spell his name correctly...
Legionnaire11
Registered User
I can't get the link on my computer, but the Preds FB page shared a video of Poile and the description says "GM David Poile discusses the loss of James Neal and how players like Colton Sissons and Pontus Aberg need to step up now"
thecloser
Registered User
He also mentions how this opens up a big possibility of making a trade and looking into free agency on July 1.
He's going to make moves, not because we the fans want him to, but because he has to. This is an overall weak UFA class and the only upgrade at the 2C will be through trade. There's some good names on the market, the problem is, all the centers available are going to demand a top 4 d-man in return.
This is where Poile might have to swallow his pride and move Dante Fabbro + to get someone like Duchene or Galchenyuk. Or go the lesser route and try to add Bozak for less. I think it's gotta be Duchene or bust and then you have to add a winger.
Offseason HAS to be busy for us.
Moving Dante Fabbro + to get Duchene or Galchenyuk isn't "swallowing your pride", it would be incredibly fortunate to get either with Dante Fabbro as the best piece.
kypredsfan
Smashville Subban
One thing I've noticed in the narrative is the following:
"Poile traded Neal for Jarnkrok"
But we don't actually know that. We just know that Poile exposed Neal instead of (likely) Jarnkrok. That doesn't mean Vegas would have taken Jarnkrok.
I'm starting to wonder if, after the Joey injury, the coaches began to take a liking to Sissons and they may actually view him as a potential 2C. At an obvious bargain price.
So what if exposing Neal was actually a really good way to protect Sissons and not get Poile eaten alive? The prevailing thought seems to be that if he had exposed Jarnkrok then Vegas would have taken him (thus trading Neal for Jarnkrok) but maybe he assumed they would take Sissons instead in that scenario.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Why not just protect Sissons then?
Here's why: "Oh my God we just traded Neal for Sissons!"
"Poile traded Neal for Jarnkrok"
But we don't actually know that. We just know that Poile exposed Neal instead of (likely) Jarnkrok. That doesn't mean Vegas would have taken Jarnkrok.
I'm starting to wonder if, after the Joey injury, the coaches began to take a liking to Sissons and they may actually view him as a potential 2C. At an obvious bargain price.
So what if exposing Neal was actually a really good way to protect Sissons and not get Poile eaten alive? The prevailing thought seems to be that if he had exposed Jarnkrok then Vegas would have taken him (thus trading Neal for Jarnkrok) but maybe he assumed they would take Sissons instead in that scenario.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Why not just protect Sissons then?
Here's why: "Oh my God we just traded Neal for Sissons!"
nomorekids
The original, baby
How will we ever replace Neal's 41 points?
I would have rather lost Jarnkrok than Neal for sure, but man Neal is suddenly overrated around here. He's an oft-injured, declining winger about to hit 30 years old. I don't consider him "1st line" talent anymore. We are fine.
I wouldn't even call this a blunder for Poile. Just a weird preference. Let's see how it all plays out. We now have cap space that we wouldn't have had previously.
A team that was essentially a one-line threat ASIDE from Neal needs all the help it can get. If trades and FA follow this up, then I'll wait and see...but if the answer is "Craig Smith\Colin Wilson have a bounce back year and Pontus Aberg blossoms into a 25 goal scorer," I think we're following up an appearance in the SCF with a worse team, and that's a real shame.
I think all of that is possible- there is just no way for us to know what truly is going on behind the scenes.
My question is this- let's play GM- what if the price to avoid losing Neal was Sissons + at least a 1st round draft pick. (I think it would have been at least that much, if not more). If you are the GM would you do that?? What about for Jarnkrok?
Let's say we do that- then we have Neal and his $5 million salary. Which gives us less money to spend on a 2C or any other additions. And we also lose a first round pick and Sissons, (plus whoever their expansion pick would be from us)- which also greatly reduces the pieces we have to go out and get a Duchene or something similar.
I am not sure what I would do or what the correct answer is here. I will repeat that I absolutely hate losing Neal but this is not an easy, cut and dried decision here. It is very complex with a lot of factors...
Viqsi
"that chick from Ohio"
I remain steadfast in my insistence that Joey should never, ever be a captain or alternate captain, ever.
Pred303
Registered User
much like poile, you guys are drastically overthinking this. we in fact did choose to 'trade' neal for a much less valuable jarnkrok. it was a bad hockey decision in terms of relative worth. period.
even if you think fiala, aberg, and sissons improve significantly (which i do), and even if our overall goal production is made up by those improvements and is the same as last year, we will be a weaker hockey team than we could have been because of it. imagine those improvements along with Neal's production added in.
Neal's goal production only fell because we moved him off the top line with a good centerman. Put Arvidsson with Jarnkrok for a full year and he would have been lucky to score 15 goals. before this all we needed was a 2nd line playmaking centerman to get Neal and Fiala the puck. Sissons/Fisher either would have been adequate as 3rd/4th line centerman in place of Jarnkrok. or even Gandreau if Fish retires. Now we need a 2nd line centerman and a 2nd line RW. or do you feel completely comfortable going into the season with Arvidsson/Smith/Aberg/Watson as your 4 RW's?
can Poile 'make up' some of this mistake this summer (even though Neal will wind up as a scoring winger on one of our rivals almost surely)? of course he can. in fact he better and i fully expect him to. but that doesn't change the fact i think this was an awful decision of asset management from a pure hockey point of view. Just awful.
edit: but i'm thru arguing about this decision and will leave it to you guys from now on.
even if you think fiala, aberg, and sissons improve significantly (which i do), and even if our overall goal production is made up by those improvements and is the same as last year, we will be a weaker hockey team than we could have been because of it. imagine those improvements along with Neal's production added in.
Neal's goal production only fell because we moved him off the top line with a good centerman. Put Arvidsson with Jarnkrok for a full year and he would have been lucky to score 15 goals. before this all we needed was a 2nd line playmaking centerman to get Neal and Fiala the puck. Sissons/Fisher either would have been adequate as 3rd/4th line centerman in place of Jarnkrok. or even Gandreau if Fish retires. Now we need a 2nd line centerman and a 2nd line RW. or do you feel completely comfortable going into the season with Arvidsson/Smith/Aberg/Watson as your 4 RW's?
can Poile 'make up' some of this mistake this summer (even though Neal will wind up as a scoring winger on one of our rivals almost surely)? of course he can. in fact he better and i fully expect him to. but that doesn't change the fact i think this was an awful decision of asset management from a pure hockey point of view. Just awful.
edit: but i'm thru arguing about this decision and will leave it to you guys from now on.
I respect your opinion probably more than anyone on this board but I just do not think that it is that simple- a cut and dried, black and white issue/decision that should have been easy to make.
A lot of factors in play that I went into a little bit above.
If you think it is, then my simple question would be- why did we do it? It is not just about Poile- this is an organizational decision. We have the GM of the year, we have a highly respected assistant GM who is about to become a GM himself. We have one of the top head coaches in the league, a guy who may be in the hall of fame someday. We have all of these great hockey minds and together, collectively, they chose to go this route. If it is such an easy decision, then why did they do it?
I think when you take all things into account, you're right, it's not a black and white decision. But, the perception that Neal is a more valuable hockey player than Jarnkrok, taking nothing else into account, isn't the worst opinion in the world. I do believe Neal is quite easily a more valuable player. Again, taking nothing else into account.
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of course that's what he says now, because right now he hasn't acquired anyone else. that's standard GM speak. Ill be floored if we don't add a significant forward to this team between now and October.
Paranoid Android
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I could definitely see the argument that Neal and Jarnkrok have similar value. Contract status and age play a big part in that. 1 year of a 30 year old, 2nd line winger = 5 years of a 26 year old, 3rd line center?
Nashville loses this "trade" in the short term, but is probably better off in the long term. A trade like this is never easy for fans to swallow. We want to be better now.
Again, still would have preferred Neal, just trying to see Poile's POV. Going to the SCF brings certain expectations for the following year, which now might be tough to fill.
Nashville loses this "trade" in the short term, but is probably better off in the long term. A trade like this is never easy for fans to swallow. We want to be better now.
Again, still would have preferred Neal, just trying to see Poile's POV. Going to the SCF brings certain expectations for the following year, which now might be tough to fill.
If Jarnkrok was a good third line center I'd generally agree with this.
He isn't. Mediocre at best. I like having him around but he's so easily replaceable.
Neal's toughness will be sorely missed come playoff time. Yes he goes overbored and plays dirty sometimes, but this is needed when you play a STL or ANH series. Without Neal and Fisher, our top-9 forwards will get absolutely mauled in a series against ANH.
Maybe we will pick him up at the deadline...
Maybe we will pick him up at the deadline...
Paranoid Android
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I'm still very very conflicted....
My personal choice (barely) would have been to go the 7-3-1 route and not protect Ellis ( I'm sure he would have been chosen, but i have some doubts about whether his body can hold up long term in the nhl). I think the role that Ellis plays in taking the same sort of shots that Shea Weber used to take played into the decision to go the 8-1 route because a huge revamping of the playing style was not needed.
That elite shooting ability that Neal has is the rarest skill in the NHL. Players have made careers with only that skill and nothing else (eg. Arnott). But over players like Arnott, Neal is a decent skater, pretty physical, a good forechecher, and is good at anticipating passes. The only way this makes sense is if Poile knows some information for which we are not privy. I wonder whether Poile approached Neal and asked for a reasonable extension in exchange for protecting and was rebuffed. Maybe Neal really wants a big payday for his last contract, but if so, he would have been highly motivated this coming season.
On the negative side is Neal's contract and his propensity to take bone headed penalties.
If Neal's money ends up going to a very good number 2 center, i can live with this. If not, i will be profoundly disappointed.
My personal choice (barely) would have been to go the 7-3-1 route and not protect Ellis ( I'm sure he would have been chosen, but i have some doubts about whether his body can hold up long term in the nhl). I think the role that Ellis plays in taking the same sort of shots that Shea Weber used to take played into the decision to go the 8-1 route because a huge revamping of the playing style was not needed.
That elite shooting ability that Neal has is the rarest skill in the NHL. Players have made careers with only that skill and nothing else (eg. Arnott). But over players like Arnott, Neal is a decent skater, pretty physical, a good forechecher, and is good at anticipating passes. The only way this makes sense is if Poile knows some information for which we are not privy. I wonder whether Poile approached Neal and asked for a reasonable extension in exchange for protecting and was rebuffed. Maybe Neal really wants a big payday for his last contract, but if so, he would have been highly motivated this coming season.
On the negative side is Neal's contract and his propensity to take bone headed penalties.
If Neal's money ends up going to a very good number 2 center, i can live with this. If not, i will be profoundly disappointed.
Bringer of Jollity
Registered User
I think Ellis being our best defender for much of the season and the first couple playoff series sealed the 4-4-1 decision. Not protecting him would have been a significantly worse decision than letting Neal go was.
As for Neal leaving, I think it was the wrong decision and what you see out of Jarkrok is basically what you are going to get. That said, I can see some reasons the decision was made with regards to declining production (undoubtedly helped by quality of linemates), frequency of injury and contract status. No use belaboring the choice at this point, but I do hope Poile makes some big moves to shore up our offense now.
