Next Year's HHOF Inductions...

[DitchMarner]

What are your predictions?


I'll say these four will get in:

Brodeur
St. Louis
Alfredsson
Roenick

Click to read more...

 

[DitchMarner]

I am in support of having JR inducted to the HHOF.

He's famous and an iconic American player. He had a nice high peak and a lengthy prime. His career totals are good enough to justify his induction.

The way the Hall is trending, he is bound to get in. I say next year is the year.

 

[dr robbie]

Those 4 are pretty good choices. I was pretty surpised Alfie didn't get in this year personally. Brodeur is a lock and St. Louis is fairly certain to make it. Are there any other notable players that will be first time eligible next year?

 

[DitchMarner]

Those 4 are pretty good choices. I was pretty surpised Alfie didn't get in this year personally. Brodeur is a lock and St. Louis is fairly certain to make it. Are there any other notable players that will be first time eligible next year?

Despite being a Leafs fan, I think the decision to induct Andreychuk instead of Alfredsson was abysmal.

 

[Neutrinos]

I think Fleury and Turgeon should get in before Alfie and Roenick

 

[Habsfan18]

Brodeur
St. Louis
Fleury
Roenick

Alfie will likely get in, but not yet, IMO.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

re: alfredsson, i think it's appropriate and even desirable for the committee to take extra years to let a guy's career soak in, see how it ages, etc.

because isn't the point of the hall of fame to memorialize the careers that deserve to be remembered? with your marty brodeurs or teemu selannes, we all knew years ago that they were slam dunk hall of famers. time won't change that. but i'd like them to take their time with the lower rung guys and five years after they're gone, ten years, maybe even twenty years in extreme cases, ask: do we miss him? do we remember him? is it an injustice that we haven't remembered him?

roenick is a good case. on accomplishments, he is borderline. but time will help sort out how or whether we remember that career.

and as for alfredsson specifically, the immediate read on him is yeah that guy's a hall of famer. signature guy for his franchise, was a top winger in the league for a long time, rarely if ever selanne-level but a good track record in the next tier. whereas the immediate read on patrik elias, who is his exact contemporary and has all the same accomplishments plus more winning, is he's borderline if lucky. maybe the perspective of time will help recalibrate that cognitive dissonance?

 

[The Panther]

Brodeur = YES
St. Louis = YES
Alfredsson = Yes, but he can wait another year if necessary
Roenick = NO

 

[Nick Hansen]

You've got to admit that Roenick is pretty close, though. He was a memorable player. But in the end I am not sure his career is good enough. No trophies and he only has two top ten finishes. Is that a HHOF player?

I'd rather see him there than Andreychuk and Housley, though.

 

[DitchMarner]

Brodeur = YES
St. Louis = YES
Alfredsson = Yes, but he can wait another year if necessary
Roenick = NO

Why don't we compare Roenick to another American Centre in Pat LaFontaine?


Pat LaFontaine:

Two top ten points finishes (2nd, 8th)
Fifth in goals in '90 and '92
Second in assists in '93
Fifth in Hart voting in '90
Third in Hart voting and 14th in Selke voting in '93
13th in Hart voting in '92
1013 points in 865 games (902 adjusted points)
62 points in 69 playoff games
10+ points in three playoff runs (11, 12, 12)
Two playoff OT winners


Jeremy Roenick:

Third in Calder voting in '90
Two top ten points finishes (5th and 7th)
Two top ten goals finishes (3rd, 10th)
Fifth in Hart voting and ninth in Selke voting in '92
Tenth in Hart voting in '94
1216 points in 1363 games (1228 adjusted points)
122 points in 154 playoff games
10+ points in four playoff runs (12, 13, 18, 22)
Four playoff OT winners



At his best, LaFontaine was a better player than JR at his best, but Roenick beats him in terms of both irrelevant and meaningful longevity (the latter does matter in my opinion). LaFontaine averaged more points per game in the playoffs but only played in the playoffs prior to the dead puck era unlike Roenick and didn't have as much any playoff runs with 10+ playoff points (and had nothing like Roenick's run's in the '92 playoffs). Roenick also scored twice as many OT winners.

LaFontaine wasn't as mouthy, which helps, I suppose. Still, I think Roenick's induction is coming...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why don't we compare Roenick to another American Centre in Pat LaFontaine?


Pat LaFontaine:

Two top ten points finishes (2nd, 8th)
Fifth in goals in '90 and '92
Second in assists in '93
Fifth in Hart voting in '90
Third in Hart voting and 14th in Selke voting in '93
13th in Hart voting in '92
1013 points in 865 games (902 adjusted points)
62 points in 69 playoff games
10+ points in three playoff runs (11, 12, 12)
Two playoff OT winners


Jeremy Roenick:

Third in Calder voting in '90
Two top ten points finishes (5th and 7th)
Two top ten goals finishes (3rd, 10th)
Fifth in Hart voting and ninth in Selke voting in '92
Tenth in Hart voting in '94
1216 points in 1363 games (1228 adjusted points)
122 points in 154 playoff games
10+ points in four playoff runs (12, 13, 18, 22)
Four playoff OT winners



At his best, LaFontaine was a better player than JR at his best, but Roenick beats him in terms of both irrelevant and meaningful longevity (the latter does matter in my opinion). LaFontaine averaged more points per game in the playoffs but only played in the playoffs prior to the dead puck era unlike Roenick and didn't have as much any playoff runs with 10+ playoff points (and had nothing like Roenick's run's in the '92 playoffs). Roenick also scored twice as many OT winners.

LaFontaine wasn't as mouthy, which helps, I suppose. Still, I think Roenick's induction is coming...

None of that is going to matter, and the fact that you tried to make it seem valuable further proves Roenicks HOF worthiness.

Roenick had a fantastic start in the league, with a great peak, but his production dropped quite quickly and dramatically, and he simply became just a good player. He became somewhat a compiler his last 5 or so years in the league, which is how he managed 500 goals.

 

[MisterNoItAll]

Brodeur is a lock.

St. Louis likely a lock.

Theo Fleury deserves to be in.

Mogilny deserves to be in.

I think Alfredsson, Roenick will eventually get in.

 

[DitchMarner]

None of that is going to matter, and the fact that you tried to make it seem valuable shows further proves Roenicks HOF worthiness.

Roenick had a fantastic start in the league, with a great peak, but his production dropped quite quickly and dramatically, and he simply became just a good player. He became somewhat a compiler his last 5 or so years in the league, which is how he managed 500 goals.

Roenick was actually quite poor in his last few seasons - probably worse than Dave Andreychuk toward the end to be honest. With a stronger finish, he would have been almost a lock.

I still think he will get in eventually, though. He was a legitimate first line C or 1B level C for a long time.


Which players do you think will be inducted in 2018?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Roenick was actually quite poor in his last few seasons - probably worse than Dave Andreychuk toward the end to be honest. With a stronger finish, he would have been almost a lock.

I still think he will get in eventually, though. He was a legitimate first line C or 1B level C for a long time.


Which players do you think will be inducted in 2018?

I mean the standards the HOF have been following lately, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets in. Yes I would much rather see him in than Andreychuk or Housley, but all 3 aren't really HOF talents, or had HOF careers really.

I think Brodeur and MSL are locks, afer them though, it's sort of a toss up. Alfredsson and Fluery are good choices.

 

[The Panther]

At his best, LaFontaine was a better player than JR at his best, but Roenick beats him in terms of both irrelevant and meaningful longevity (the latter does matter in my opinion). LaFontaine averaged more points per game in the playoffs but only played in the playoffs prior to the dead puck era unlike Roenick and didn't have as much any playoff runs with 10+ playoff points (and had nothing like Roenick's run's in the '92 playoffs). Roenick also scored twice as many OT winners.

LaFontaine wasn't as mouthy, which helps, I suppose. Still, I think Roenick's induction is coming...

I don't hate Roenick, and certainly if he had maintained his c.1990-1994 level for a bit longer, I'd be more favorable towards his induction. Here's the thing, though: he had three or four elite seasons in the early-90s, and then had 5 years in a row, in his prime, when he was no longer elite (though you could argue about 1995-96). In fact, for his entire career after age 24, he has basically one elite season (1999-00 with Phoenix, borderline again in 2000-01). I mean, it doesn't scream 'hall of fame' to me when, during half of your prime years, you weren't an elite player.

I agree that Lafontaine's peak was higher, and also I think he maintained that elite level (despite injuries marring his resume) more consistently. We could say he became elite during the 1986-87 season (speaking of overtime goals, you know which one he scored in '87) and then was elite every full season he played for the next seven seasons. Now, of course he had most of 1993-94 and half of the Work-stoppage 1995 season wiped out to concussion-related injuries.

So, it's not only that Lafontaine's peak was higher; it's also (for me anyway) that he maintained that level longer, and in more than one situation. Just my opinion.


I would rate Lafontaine as a borderline-area player for Hall of Fame status, but for me he's in because his peak was so high and he maintained that high level for a long time. Whereas, while Roenick might also be a borderline-area player, his peak was lesser and he didn't maintain that level for very long.

 

[Terry Yake]

brodeur and msl are locks

i think fleury should get in before alfredsson but alfie getting in next year wouldn't surprise me

roenick should not get in. but then again, by inducting guys like andreychuk and housley they've lowered the bar for induction so roenick will probably get in sometime soon

 

[Albatros]

Hayley Wickenheiser should get in without waiting period.

 

[tony d]

Brodeur
St.Louis
Alfie
JC Tremblay

Those are my 4 choices to make the HHOF in 2018.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i see roenick vs. lafontaine as basically a toss-up. but then i don't have either guy in my hall of fame (both are very high HOVG for me).

if we're talking offensive production only:

1988

lafontaine, 12th in goals (1 behind goulet, gartner, and mike bullard; 1 more than stastny and verbeek), 16th in points (2 behind kirk muller, 1 behind bobby smith, tied with nieuwendyk, 1 more than gary suter's career year)

1989

lafontaine, 11th in goals (tied with dineen's career year and tocchet, 1 behind kurri, 1 more than robitaille in an off-year), 18th in points (1 behind dineen and ridley's career years; tied with steen, sandstrom, kerr, and 19 year old pierre turgeon)

1990

lafontaine, 5th in goals, 8th in points; an elite season

1991

lafontaine, 13th in goals (2 behind verbeek, tied with gretzky, 1 more than gagner, klima, recchi, stevens, tocchet, and roenick), 22nd in points

roenick, 13th in goals (see above), 18th in assists (tied with fleury and housley), 11th in points; a borderline elite season

1992

lafontaine, half-season where he still finished 5th in goals (1 more than yzerman), 15th in points (2 behind turgeon, 1 behind sakic); 2nd in goals/game behind peak brett hull, 3rd in points/game behind mario and gretzky; an unbelievably elite season, albeit incomplete

roenick, 3rd in goals (1 behind stevens' career year, tied with gary roberts' career year), 7th in points (tied with yzerman); a borderline elite season

1993

lafontaine, 11th in goals (1 behind andreychuk's career year and hull, tied with recchi), 2 more than shanahan), 2nd in assists (2 behind oates' career year, tied with gilmour), 2nd in points; an unbelievably elite season, full stop

roenick, 14th in goals (2 behind shanahan, 1 more than sakic), 15th in points (2 behind tocchet's career year, 1 more than janney's career year, 2 more than sakic), a borderline elite season

1994

roenick, 10th in goals (tied with wendel clark's career year, 2 more than robitaille and lindros), 15th in assists (2 behind coffey, 1 behind brind'amour, 2 more than garry galley's WTF outlier season and scott stevens), 5th in points (tied with recchi and bure); an elite season

1996

lafontaine, 17th in goals (1 less than verbeek, tied with selanne, 1 more than fedorov and claude lemieux), 22nd in points (1 less than oates); a borderline elite season

1999

roenick, 15th in assists, 2 less than yashin and brind'amour, 1 less than larionov, tied with straka, 1 more than leclair, modano, and bourque), 20th in points (2 behind yzerman, robitaille, and brind'amour; 1 behind steve thomas; tied with sykora; 1 more than khristich)

2000

roenick, 15th in goals (1 behind elias, czerkawski, and valeri bure; 1 more than selanne and satan), 18th in assists (tied with kariya, yzerman, nedved, and housley), 11th in points (1 behind yzerman, tied with shanahan, 1 more than leclair); a borderline elite season

roenick has four other seasons where he's around #30 ('96, '97, '01, '02). lafontaine doesn't, because he has nothing after his prime, due to injuries, and nothing above #50 in points before 1988, though he does finish 18th in goals in 1987.

so what we're looking at is effectively this--

lafontaine: 1.5 super-elite seasons, 1 elite seasons, 1 borderline elite season, 3 very good seasons

roenick: 1 elite season, 3 borderline elite seasons, 3 very good seasons, 4 good seasons

depending on how we treat the '95 lockout season, where roenick played 2/3 of the year and lafontaine 1/2, you could give roenick another partial very good season and lafontaine another partial elite season.

what it boils down to is lafontaine has 6.5 or 7 meaningful seasons and roenick has 11 or 11.5. lafontaine of course has the peak that roenick can't touch. does roenick make up for it with his back end and career numbers? lafontaine, despite playing the entirety of his career in the high scoring era, just barely limped over 1,000 points. roenick has 500 goals and 1,200 points. he also was much better defensively and was a physical force. this is borne out by AST voting--

lafontaine: 2, 5, 5 (but if he didn't miss all that time in '92, the second 5 is probably a 3 and would bump one of roenick's 4s down to a 5)

roenick: 4, 4, 5, 5, 5

but the question, as always is, that otherworldly '91-'93 peak by lafontaine. i mean talk about a guy whose career wouldn't be nearly as illustrious without a short but high peak...

---

all this said, i can't imagine that a hall of fame with andreychuk and housley doesn't also include roenick sooner or later, and i think he has a good shot as anyone to go next year in the third or fourth spots. roenick has everything going for him: the numbers (500, 1,200), the passport, the fame, and being well-connected with and generally liked by with the hockey establishment (albeit his outspoken nature at times being frowned upon).

 

[Melrose Munch]

It's the hockey hall of fame. Roenick was a name in us mainstream media when people couldn't even pick out Sakic or Forsberg from a line up. Him and Lindros, maybe Yzerman.

 

[trentmccleary]

I think it should probably be: Brodeur, St. Louis, Barrasso, Alfredsson
I hope that it won't be: Brodeur and 3 guys who played a lot from 1981-1995

Total Points within a Decade (1-10)
1990’s = 8) Turgeon, 9) Fleury, 12) Roenick
2000’s = 3) Alfredsson, 15) Elias

It kind of looks like Alfredsson did better in his era than those other guys did in theirs. On average, 12 of the top-15 scorers from each decade have been inducted into the HHOF (including all of the top-5's and most of the top-10's).

Total Points Draft Rank
1987 Draft = 3) Turgeon, 4) Fleury
1988 Draft = 4) Roenick, 6) Mogilny
1981-1990 = 16) Turgeon, 19) Roenick, 25) Fleury, 29) Mogilny

1994 Draft = 1) Alfredsson, 2) Elias
1991-2000 = 3) Alfredsson, 9) Elias

re: alfredsson, i think it's appropriate and even desirable for the committee to take extra years to let a guy's career soak in, see how it ages, etc.

because isn't the point of the hall of fame to memorialize the careers that deserve to be remembered? with your marty brodeurs or teemu selannes, we all knew years ago that they were slam dunk hall of famers. time won't change that. but i'd like them to take their time with the lower rung guys and five years after they're gone, ten years, maybe even twenty years in extreme cases, ask: do we miss him? do we remember him? is it an injustice that we haven't remembered him?

roenick is a good case. on accomplishments, he is borderline. but time will help sort out how or whether we remember that career.

and as for alfredsson specifically, the immediate read on him is yeah that guy's a hall of famer. signature guy for his franchise, was a top winger in the league for a long time, rarely if ever selanne-level but a good track record in the next tier. whereas the immediate read on patrik elias, who is his exact contemporary and has all the same accomplishments plus more winning, is he's borderline if lucky. maybe the perspective of time will help recalibrate that cognitive dissonance?

Elias didn't have the same level of individual success as Alfredsson did.
As a point of interest, Alfredsson finished with a 0.929 PPG and Elias with 0.827. If we remove Alfredsson's 5 best seasons from his career, his PPG drops to 0.830.

Regular Season: raw career numbers and seasons hitting benchmarks
Reg. S.-GP-G-A-Pts-GPG-PPG-70+pts-30+ G-PPG-.5 GPG
Alfredsson|1246|444|713|1157|0.36|0.93|10|4|8|2
Elias|1240|408|617|1025|0.33|0.83|5|4|4|0

10 Best Era-Adjusted seasons (hockey-reference) [seasons selected by PPG, min. 27GP]
10yr EA Avg|EAGP|EA-G|EA-Pts|EAGPG|EAPPG
Alfredsson|73|33|84|0.45|1.15
Elias|71|30|74|0.43|1.04

Selke Finishes
Alfie = 4, 10, 11, 15, 20
Elias = 8, 15, 19

Playoffs|GP|G|A|Pts|GPG|PPG|.5 GPG|1.00 PPG|Series|1.20+|1.00-1.19|.67-.86|.4-.6|0.40<|%>=1.00
Alfredsson|124|51|49|100|0.41|0.81|5|6|24|6|5|6|3|4|0.458
Elias|162|45|80|125|0.28|0.77|3|5|29|3|7|9|3|7|0.345

Olympics|GP|G|Pts|GPG|PPG
Alfredsson|26|13|27|0.50|1.04
Elias|13|3|7|0.23|0.54

 

[frisco]

Barrasso, Brodeur, St.Louis. I'd like to see Turgeon in someday.

My Best-Carey

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Judging by the year's inductions you have to be a pretty good player to get into the HOF.

 

[DitchMarner]

Judging by the year's inductions you have to be a pretty good player to get into the HOF.

Andreychuk?

I don't want to keep piling on the guy as that's been going on for months and it's not like he was a bad guy or player...

Let's just say he was a good player who played for a long time.

He really wasn't too special if you take away from his massive longevity. His induction - along with Housley's - effectively lowers the standard in many people's opinions.

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm with McCleary here... Alfredsson will/should get in soon.

For a forward from his era, he has a (perhaps surprisingly) strong resume and numbers.

It's important to get some representation for these newer franchises from the 1990s/2000s. SJ will have Thornton. ANA has Kariya and Selanne. TB will have MSL. FLA has... well, Bure played for them for a bit. Maybe Luongo gets inducted eventually?

There's no way a Yashin or Spezza is being inducted. Karlsson will eventually, but his career is nowhere near over.

There's really no reason to be too fussy about Alfredsson's induction at this point if you're not particularly in favor of it; and I'm saying that as someone who is a fan of a team that feuded with his for years (and still is).

Just being objective.