Next Year's HHOF Inductions...

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
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I'm confident Roenick will get in. As Andreychuk proved, 500 goals and 1000 points are still revered benchmarks that the committee has no ability to evaluate with any context.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,276
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Ostsee
In principle yes, exceptions are still theoretically possible but intended for different kind of situations. The waiting period in itself refers to professional and international games, of course one could argue that CWHL is at most semi-professional and as such doesn't count anyway, but playing for Canada probably has to be seen as international regardless of whether it was in men or women.
 

Zegras Zebra

Registered User
May 7, 2016
525
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
Martin Brodeur is a lock, I think Alfie gets in after a one year wait, I'm not 100% sold that Martin St. Louis will be a first ballot guy (my gut says he will wait a year). After that its wide open to nominate someone who has had to wait a while/ borderline (Roenick, Joseph, Barrasso, John LeClair, European great, etc.). I think Theo Fleury needs a few more years before he will get in unfortunately. Too much heat from his playing days, his book, etc. I'm almost positive a female player will be inducted. Nobody has mentioned Cassie Campbell yet.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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There's litterally no reason to have MSL wait white Alfie gets in. None.
Unless you're in that #MAGA crowd.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,132
Regina, SK
I think MSL should be a lock, but all along the way he's been the kind of guy the hockey establishment underrates, so I wouldn't bet my life that he gets in immediately. If someone says to you, "Alfredsson was a better player", can you 100% unequivocally say Alfredsson doesn't have a case? He does. He was much better defensively, despite not having the two big spikes he scored more points per game over a larger sample, didn't score the majority of his points in the weakest division in the NHL, and has a better leadership reputation.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
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I think MSL should be a lock, but all along the way he's been the kind of guy the hockey establishment underrates, so I wouldn't bet my life that he gets in immediately. If someone says to you, "Alfredsson was a better player", can you 100% unequivocally say Alfredsson doesn't have a case? He does. He was much better defensively, despite not having the two big spikes he scored more points per game over a larger sample, didn't score the majority of his points in the weakest division in the NHL, and has a better leadership reputation.

If somebody tells me that Alfredson was a better player, I just don't bother to listen what that other person has to say, a bit as if someone comes up with the idea that Curtis Joseph and Tommy Salo were similar goalies.

I mean, I disagree that Iginla was better than MSL, but that's not a preposterous statement. That's just a point where that person and I disagrees.

Whereas calling Alfie the better player is basically begging me to start laughing my ass off. There's no reason why Anderson would be considered the better player, unless you put a lot of credence into being a semi lifelong Senator and into being born in Sweden.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
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Regina, SK
If somebody tells me that Alfredson was a better player, I just don't bother to listen what that other person has to say, a bit as if someone comes up with the idea that Curtis Joseph and Tommy Salo were similar goalies.

Let's not exaggerate here.

It's true that over almost the exact same time span, Alfredsson scored more per game and for more games. Is St. Louis automatically better only on the basis that his two best seasons were higher spikes than Alfredsson's two best?

I rank St. Louis higher too, but isn't it worth reviewing exactly why that is?
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Let's not exaggerate here.

It's true that over almost the exact same time span, Alfredsson scored more per game and for more games. Is St. Louis automatically better only on the basis that his two best seasons were higher spikes than Alfredsson's two best?

I rank St. Louis higher too, but isn't it worth reviewing exactly why that is?

Alfredsson scored more because the team he joined had a clue about what they had.
 

trentmccleary

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Mar 2, 2002
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Alfredsson scored more because the team he joined had a clue about what they had.

Expectations change. Players change. Players surprise.
- Going into Alfredsson's first training camp, they made it sound like they hoped he'd turn into the player Andy Dackell became.
- In 1997, Martin St. Louis was cut from his tryout in the Ottawa Senators training camp and not offered a contract.
 

trentmccleary

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Mar 2, 2002
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I had no idea about this.

Might as well post it before (probably) the last article mentioning it disappears.

Martin St. Louis: 'Earned everything I got' in NHL

"St. Louis went from being an undrafted player who was cut from his training-camp tryout with the Ottawa Senators in 1997 to a player who won the Stanley Cup, an Olympic gold medal, the Hart Trophy, the Art Ross Trophy twice and the Lady Byng Trophy three times. He finished his career with 391 goals, 642 assists and 1,033 points in 1,134 games."
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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Tokyo, Japan
Might as well post it before (probably) the last article mentioning it disappears.

Martin St. Louis: 'Earned everything I got' in NHL

"St. Louis went from being an undrafted player who was cut from his training-camp tryout with the Ottawa Senators in 1997 to a player who won the Stanley Cup, an Olympic gold medal, the Hart Trophy, the Art Ross Trophy twice and the Lady Byng Trophy three times. He finished his career with 391 goals, 642 assists and 1,033 points in 1,134 games."
Really says a lot for the skill of the scouts.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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It's true that over almost the exact same time span, Alfredsson scored more per game and for more games. Is St. Louis automatically better only on the basis that his two best seasons were higher spikes than Alfredsson's two best?

three best seasons

his '11 season, which didn't result in an art ross, is seriously underrated. i thought he should have won the hart that year, carrying the lightning and keeping pace with daniel sedin after stamkos turned into a pumpkin.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
I would say - unequivocally - Martin St. Louis is a better hockey player than Daniel Alfredsson. Two scoring titles and a runner-up finish, along with five All-Star selections to Alfredsson's one at the exact same position over the same period of time?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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I would say - unequivocally - Martin St. Louis is a better hockey player than Daniel Alfredsson. Two scoring titles and a runner-up finish, along with five All-Star selections to Alfredsson's one at the exact same position over the same period of time?

i'll add, while adjusted stats are hardly scientific, MSL does have four adjusted seasons higher than alfredsson's best, and a fifth season one point behind it.

MSL has as many adjusted 90 point seasons as alfredsson has adjusted 80 point seasons.

if you put their adjusted seasons one-by-one next to each other, you have to go all the way down to year eleven to see a season that alfredsson beats MSL (in their respective 11th best years, alfredsson has 66 points, MSL has 60; in their 10th best years, MSL has 77 points, alfie has 74).

hell, MSL has as many actual 90 points seasons as alfredsson has actual 80 point seasons, which of course doesn't even count his second art ross season because it was during the abbreviated lockout year.

i also don't think alfredsson was demonstrably better defensively than MSL was, but am open to hearing arguments. from what i saw, they were both excellent. and as speculative evidence, i put a lot of stock in the fact that MSL initially stuck in the league in calgary and tampa as a defensive third line guy and high usage PKer. it couldn't have been easy to earn and keep that spot as a 5'7 guy. i feel like if he'd never exploded offensively he could have racked up more top 5-10 selke finishes than just the one career year gimme. but i bet alfredsson could have too.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Jacques Demers has a losing record in the regular season. How many coaches with losing NHL records are in the Hockey Hall of Fame?

Jacques Demers - Wikipedia

You mixed him up with Pat Burns, I think.
As for his losing record? Well, the guy coached for a bankrupt team, an expansion team and the Red Wings at the time they were called the Dead Wings. Of course his record is probably not that great.
 

trentmccleary

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Mar 2, 2002
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i'll add, while adjusted stats are hardly scientific, MSL does have four adjusted seasons higher than alfredsson's best, and a fifth season one point behind it.

MSL has as many adjusted 90 point seasons as alfredsson has adjusted 80 point seasons.

if you put their adjusted seasons one-by-one next to each other, you have to go all the way down to year eleven to see a season that alfredsson beats MSL (in their respective 11th best years, alfredsson has 66 points, MSL has 60; in their 10th best years, MSL has 77 points, alfie has 74).

hell, MSL has as many actual 90 points seasons as alfredsson has actual 80 point seasons, which of course doesn't even count his second art ross season because it was during the abbreviated lockout year.

i also don't think alfredsson was demonstrably better defensively than MSL was, but am open to hearing arguments. from what i saw, they were both excellent. and as speculative evidence, i put a lot of stock in the fact that MSL initially stuck in the league in calgary and tampa as a defensive third line guy and high usage PKer. it couldn't have been easy to earn and keep that spot as a 5'7 guy. i feel like if he'd never exploded offensively he could have racked up more top 5-10 selke finishes than just the one career year gimme. but i bet alfredsson could have too.

The stats and adjusted stats are more a function of health than production.

I have their 10 best era adjusted seasons (selected by PPG) at:

St. Louis = 81-35-59-94, 0.43 GPG, 1.16 PPG
Alfredsson = 73-33-51-84, 0.45 GPG, 1.15 PPG

In terms of EA PPG (best seasons),
1-2 are close for MSL
3-5 are dominated by MSL
6-7 are close for Alfie
Everything beyond is dominated by Alfie
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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16,395
Since neither Alfie or MSL would make the HHOF on the basis of their 8th best season and beyond, what they did during these is more than just irrelevant.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,114
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Tokyo, Japan
St.Louis is easily above Alfredsson -- there shouldn't be any debate there. In addition to Marty's larger haul of hardware (and a Stanley Cup... for which I still think he might've won the Conn Smythe), they were both equally 'franchise'-type players, both respected around the League, possibly St.Louis even more so than Alfie.
 

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