reidy
@reidjjackson
I said he wouldn't be. Brian Boyle is barely above a PPG as a Jr. at BC, and he's a far superior player to Pineault at this point in their development.
Ummm perhaps but a 1.15 ppg is certainly not CHL allstar numbers to me now is it. Afterall, even your wonderkid Kessel is putting up a higher ppg total in the WCHA and Oshie is also pretty close...and considering that Mueller did better than Oshie point wise in the WJC, and seeing that Oshie is one of the top players in the WCHA, a ppg in the top 15 and only a hair out of the top 10, leads me to conclude that Oshie would have as good a chance of landing on the WCHA all star team as Mueller would in the WHL!
See my point?(sorry reidy couldn't resist!)
MN_Gopher said:You are telling me that a 18 year old Parent, Barker, even Phanuef are better than a 20 year old Blake? I mean Rob Blake forerly of the Kings. I am saying that Turco at 23 is better than most any 18 year old goalie.
And it is not Minnesota. Its CC, DU, BC, NoDak, WI, BU if they get their act together, Mich, Maine, NH. The top teams in the NCAA. Yeah average NCAA vs average CHL you got a very good game. But remember the more average the NCAA team. Usually the age factor goes up. With guys playing 1-3 years in the USHL, BCHL, AJHL. Some guys getting up to 23-25. Now with an average team lets say AA. You see alot of 81, 82, 83 born. 4 of those 81 born. With only 2 86 born. With an average CHL team vs that average NCAA team the age difference is about 3-4 full years. Simular with a team like Mich Tech. They have an 80 born and only 1 86 born. Alabama Huntsville has 2 85 born as its oldest. Nodak and Minneota are the two most talented on paper and they are also the two youngest in their conference. Minnesota is getting better play from their upper classmen and thats the difference.
And have any of you ever watched a Huntsville vs top team game? If you claim to know some much about the NCAA you know how those games look. Picture the older team playing like that against an even younger team. Not pretty.
VOB said:Ummm perhaps but a 1.15 ppg is certainly not CHL allstar numbers to me now is it. Afterall, even your wonderkid Kessel is putting up a higher ppg total in the WCHA and Oshie is also pretty close...and considering that Mueller did better than Oshie point wise in the WJC, and seeing that Oshie is one of the top players in the WCHA, a ppg in the top 15 and only a hair out of the top 10, leads me to conclude that Oshie would have as good a chance of landing on the WCHA all star team as Mueller would in the WHL!
See my point?(sorry reidy couldn't resist!)
Zine said:Oh, c'mon. You can't compare players based on their point totals at the WJC - then translate that to how'd they'd do in different leagues. It's too small of a window to prove anything, and waaayyy too abstract; especially statistically.
If that were the case Luc Bourdon and Cam Barker should be outscoring every Canadian forward not named Blake Comeau....and Ryan Parent went pointless, so he's not as good as every player who got a point in the WJC.
If you WATCHED the games, and SAW the hockey, you'd have seen that Oshie was one of the US' top 3 forwards game in and game out. Bobby Ryan (who's ripping the CHL a new one) was not as good as Oshie. In fact, there were times when he was terrible. Mueller looked very talented but - young. Schremp was very good. But, again, it's hard to compare players based on a 6 games.
Again, in terms of relative talent, most of the US WJC players play 2nd fiddle on their respective NCAA squads. The same can't be said for the CHL players. Even the vast majority of Canada's WJC players are extremely vital cogs to their team -- the same can't be said for their NCAA players (Toews, Cogliano, Bertram, Pokuluk.)
Decided not to do the poll?...I don't blame 'ya.
phaneuf_fan_3 said:Yes I am telling you that Phaneuf at 18 is better then Rob Blake at 20 and Parent likely too and for every Rob Blake at 20 years old in the NCAA you have there is a CHL player under the age of 20 that is already playing in the NHL.
As for Turco at 23..........Ill put up MA Fleury........Marek Schwarz.......Carey Price.......Justin Pogge......and many many others who were better at age 19 then he was at 23......had you not noticed Turco was an extreme late bloomer.
You are joking right?! I mean some of these guys didn't even step into the NHL from college and this is the cream of the NCAA's crop. Compare that to recent CHL grads who made the jump right to the NHL. Jason Spezza, Crosby, Staal, Horton, phaneuf, Thortnon, Gagne,Stewart, Richards, Carter, Tanguay, Nagy,Lecavalier, Nash,Stuart....and I could go on. These players all stepped into the NHL right after their CHL careers were over, many of them are the game's top players today.
Was a 19 year old Phanuef better than a 20 year old Rob Blake? HELL YEAH!
That's the thing, the better younger CHL players are everybit as good (if not better) than their slightly older NCAA counterparts.
VOB said:Sure you can compare, especially when its all you have. Hey this was the WJC, not some throw away game in Alaska Anchorage!!!! If you can't produce here, agaisnt the best, your true qualities (or there lack of) are exposed. Why do you suppose Kessel's reputation took such a big hit!
VOB said:Oh yes I wathced all the games, and like I said I liked Oshie but the game at the WJC is played at a higher level and while Oshie did some nice things out there, he simply could not get it done on the score sheet. He does not possess the natural raw talent of someone like a Mueller or even a Ryan, who by the way was grossly misused and given very little ice time. Factor in the point that this year's WJC was called very similiar to what the NCAA has been like for the past few years. You could not hit anyone on the ice, it was terrible...until of course the fans revolted, forcing the IIHF to call in its refs and ordered them to loosen up. Had the final game between Canada and Russia been called like they were in the prelims...it would have been a different outcome.
VOB said:As for your poll, can you imagine if I did a poll three years back as to who would be the better Dman - Phanuef or Suter - about 90% on this board would have said I was crazy to even compare them because Suter was going to be the best Dman to come out of that draft by a country mile! Of course 10% of people on this board even saw Dion and Suter play....about the same percentage who have watched Oshie and Pineault this year.
VOB said:You are joking right?! I mean some of these guys didn't even step into the NHL from college and this is the cream of the NCAA's crop. Compare that to recent CHL grads who made the jump right to the NHL. Jason Spezza, Crosby, Staal, Horton, phaneuf, Thortnon, Gagne,Stewart, Richards, Carter, Tanguay, Nagy,Lecavalier, Nash,Stuart....and I could go on. These players all stepped into the NHL right after their CHL careers were over, many of them are the game's top players today..
Yeah, I guess this logic applies to Phaneuf, Heatley, Lupul, Eminger, Spezza, Nash, Lecavalier, Hanhuis, Bouwmeester, Ballard, Semin, Steen, Michalek, Zherdev, Tyutin, Legwand, Brown, Gleason, Suter, Prucha, Volchenkov, Whitney, Martin, , Richards, Ryder, Ribiero, Gaborik, Leopold, Stuart, Regehr, Vaananen, Vishnevski, Connolly, etc, etc, etc, etc,................all guys who scored under 5 points at a WJC. Their true qualities (or lack thereof) were exposed.
VOB said:As usual Goph you missed the entire point, which was that all those players jumped right into the NHL from the CHL, meaning what? They had to be better than their NCAA counterparts who were still playing in the NCAA as 20-24 year olds or toiling in the minors before making it the big show.
Well for starters, Spezza had 6pts in the WJC,Phaneuf had 6pts, Heatley had 5, and even a young 17 year old Rick Nash trippled Oshie's point production! And you do realize that players such as Bouwmeester are Dmen, and even a 18 year old Dman doubled Oshie's production!
No Kessel and Bourque cannot be considered Malkin's equals because Malkin did not have Norway to feast on!
Who knows how Joggi would do in the OHL, as he plays in the Swiss Senior League!
Tell me Zine, what makes you think Oshie would do better than Mueller in the WHL? Is it because some players have went to the CHL after the NCAA and put more points? Well gee Chris Butler has 28 pts in 60 USHL games yet has 21 pts in only 26 WCHA game! What could that mean??!!! It must mean that the USHL is >>>>>than the NCAA !!!!!!!! Look for no further proof than Oshie's 5pts in 11 USHL games yet he is not a ppg player in college!
The fact of the matter is Oshie played with Mueller in the WJC, and Mueller garnered more points! How can you then say with certainty that if Oshie were in the WHL, he would "tear it up"?
Tell me why the NCAA is better than the CHL again please?
MN_Gopher said:Well lets see Nagy did not jump to the NHL right of the bat. He spent parts of 2 seasons in the AHL. Now lets look at those guys. Spezza also played parts in the AHL. And Carter, Richards, Crosby and Phanuef are still plating so they are out as well.
In order of best first years out of the CHL and years played in CHL after draft.
Tanguay. 51 points in 71 games playeed one year after he was drafted.
Gagne. 48 points in 80 games. Played one year after draft.
Nash. 39 points in 74 games. All the rest came out after being drafted.
Staal. 31 points in 81 games.
Horton. 22 points in 55 games
Lecavalier. 28 points in 82 games
Thornton. 7 points in 55 games.
Funny how the two oldest had the best seasons. I guess Tanguay and Gagne are better than than others then right? And by a fair margin. Or does one year of devolpment mean that much? Nash was on the border of contributing. But under him the others got experiane, but did not help out at least in the scoring department. Where Gagne and Tanguay did. Thas what a year or two can do to player. Staal from 31 to two years later tops in the NHL. Thornton goes from 7 to 41 to 60. Wow look at that. Two years again. There is a pattern here. See it. You probally cannot. So i will spell it out. Two years makes a huge difference.
VOB said:Well for starters, Spezza had 6pts in the WJC,Phaneuf had 6pts, Heatley had 5, and even a young 17 year old Rick Nash trippled Oshie's point production! And you do realize that players such as Bouwmeester are Dmen, and even a 18 year old Dman doubled Oshie's production!
VOB said:No Kessel and Bourque cannot be considered Malkin's equals because Malkin did not have Norway to feast on!!
VOB said:Who knows how Joggi would do in the OHL, as he plays in the Swiss Senior League!
VOB said:Tell me Zine, what makes you think Oshie would do better than Mueller in the WHL? Is it because some players have went to the CHL after the NCAA and put more points? Well gee Chris Butler has 28 pts in 60 USHL games yet has 21 pts in only 26 WCHA game! What could that mean??!!! It must mean that the USHL is >>>>>than the NCAA !!!!!!!! Look for no further proof than Oshie's 5pts in 11 USHL games yet is he not a ppg player in college!
The fact of the matter is Oshie played with Mueller in the WJC, and Mueller garnered more points! How can you then say with certainty that if Oshie were in the WHL, he would "tear it up"
VOB said:Tell me why the NCAA is better than the CHL again please?
VOB said:As usual Goph you missed the entire point, which was that all those players jumped right into the NHL from the CHL, meaning what? They had to be better than their NCAA counterparts who were still playing in the NCAA as 20-24 year olds or toiling in the minors before making it the big show.
Zine said:FACT is, a far larger majority of players who leave the NCAA enjoy greater success in the CHL.....not just 'a few' according to you. Apart from Thelen, I’m seriously having trouble thinking of anybody who had a point reduction in the CHL. Actually, Thelen’s point totals have risen from last year. It’s probably even more unlikely with a player from an elite NCAA school (I’m thinking of UW’s Matt Auffrey off the top of my head for this year….maybe Oreskovich too, although I wouldn’t exactly call Notre Dame elite). If there are any, its only a small handful.
Of course, a good number are a year older when they play in the CHL....however, according to you, age shouldn’t make a difference when comparing both leagues…..right?
If you can name me a significant amount of players who did better in the NCAA than CHL, I’ll concede my point.
Obviously, there's no way to prove anything 100%, but seeing that Oshie is at a PPG in the WCHA, and based on how your average NCAA player has done in the CHL, odds are he'd be putting up some serious points.
Of course, it’s not exact…but it’s A LOT more precise than basing points on 6-7 WJC games.
Doesn't matter if someone got 1,2,3,4,5 points, my point (and it obviously flew way over your head), is that every player I mentioned was outscored significantly at a WJC by MANY sub-par players
Excuses, excuses. Malkin had Latvia to feast on!!!!!
Again, you can cite all the rare Chris Butler's you want.......like that's really common.
VOB said:Ahh but the point you missed my friend was that players such as Heatley and Spezza put up the points, Oshie did not! Besides Spezza's 6pts was only four points less than the leading scorer and 3 points less than the 2nd leading point getter. I wouldn't call that a "significant" margin! Now Oshie - yeah that's a significant lack of production!
VOB said:The WJC and last summer's evaluation camp is the only tangible evidence we have that can compare Mueller to Oshie! In both tournaments, Mueller outperformed Oshie!
VOB said:Yeah like Latvia was as weak as Norway! Remember Latvia BEAT Norway themselves 4-0!!! And besides, we shouldn't be laughing at Latvia anymore, seeing how they just tied our Olympic team!
VOB said:More common than you think Zine! Not only were Butler and Oshie's point production seriously lower in the USHL than in the NCAA but so was Wes O'Neil's production! He averaged .30 ppg in the USHL but then watched his ppg shoot up to .52ppg in the NCAA. Or how about Denver's Matt Carle who went from a .71 ppg in the USHL to a .87 in the NCAA? Or how about one of the current top 10 point producers in the NCAA today, Bill Thomas? His ppg as a freshman in the NCAA was identical to his stats in the USHL the year before! The same can be said for freshman Chris Zarb of Ferris State.Same goes for Scott Parse! Now are these players in the minority...sure but they still produced at an equal or greater rate in the USHL than they did in the NCAA. Did they find the game harder in the USHL? Of course not! Alot had to do with their role on their team and the style of game their team employed.
VOB said:Furthermore, not every former NCAA player's stats ballooned upon going to the CHL. You already mentioned Thelen but there are more. Take a look at Matt Nickerson who went from a .36 ppg in the NCAA to a .25 in the Q. Justin Maiser went from a .58 ppg in Hockey East to .39 in the dub. Most players who do defect to the CHL do so a season later, so it is very difficult to guage how they would have performed in the NCAA if they had remained and compare it to their current performance in the CHL. ?
VOB said:Sure Comrie lit it up, but remember he was also one of the leading scorers in the NCAA the year before and there is no reason to think that he would not have made a mockery of the NCAA as well had he remained for his Junior year. Other players stats may have gone up...but ever so slightly. A 19 year old VanRyn managed a .62ppg production in the NCAA and a .67ppg in the OHL (as an overager!) but again what would have VanRyn point totals been like had he remained at Michigan????? Alex Lalonde went from a .31ppg as a freshman in the CCHA to a whopping .32ppg as a 19 year old player in the OHL and was cut as an overager his following year! He by the way is averaging .75ppg as a 21 year old in the CIS playing for Calgary - the same team that demolished number 19 ranked LSSU in ThunderBay last month!
VOB said:Yes you do have an Auffrey who has had a point production increase from a .32 ppg as a freshman for Wisconsin to .74 pgg as a 19 year old in the O but again, how was he used in Wisconsin? Many Wisconsin fans that I talked to were sad to see him go, realizing that his injury set him back but confident that he would have been a contributor had he remained.
Wow, what Badger fans said that? I have season tickets and there was no room for him this year at all. He woulda been part of the 4th line rotation.…..most likely why he left.
He did have potential to be pretty good down the road. Sad to see him go.
VOB said:The fact is that there is more talent in the CHL than in the NCAA and that the average CHL player is larger, more physical and more talented than his NCAA counterpart. Yes you do have stacked teams like Minnesota but who exactly is Minnesota playing? Isn't Kessel and Irmen and the like getting points by playing teams like Tech, Alaska, Bemidgi, Mankato ect....teams that you said CHL ones can hang with? !
There are only a couple bottom feeders in the WCHA…...either way, its been proven that even talent on teams like those routinely do better in the CHL.
VOB said:So please tell me again why the NCAA is better than the CHL?
Seriously, VOB.....why, despite only 3 per team, are there a disproportionate amount of average (5th round-undrafted) overagers doing so well in the CHL? Actually, many are leading their teams in scoring; it’s a common occurrence every year. I mean these players make up, what, 12% of the league?
In light of this, wouldn’t your typical higher drafted (84-83) NCAA player be doing better? The NCAA is full of ‘em.
Or is your 5th-undrafted, 1985 CHL overager innately better than your 2-5 round 1984-83 NCAA player?
But, that wasn’t your original point, or the one I was replying to. You can throw as many stats into the air as you want; I can counter with just as many also (in ’02 an older Spezza had 4 points, 7 less than Cammalleri..an NCAA player – that’s ‘significant’). The point is, with all these discrepancies and irregularities, you can’t compare players based on statistics of a 6-7 game tourney. Even if it’s all you have to go by. Heck, even in the Olympics and WC, average players routinely outscore NHL all-stars.
You have to look at how the player looked on the ice and how they perform statistically over the long haul.
So you’re citing 7 players out of the god knows how many that have/are playing USHL/NCAA and you say ‘it’s more common than I think’.
If all of that’s true, why is it FAR MORE LIKELY for NCAArs to do better in the CHL? Seriously, I’d like to hear an answer.
phaneuf_fan_3 said:You know as it is this is how it works.........Kids from the States go to the CHL to improve drafting position and play in a better league. That tells the entire story right there.
Now this is where ppl come back at me with oh yea but look at all the Canadian kids who go to the NCAA to play.......well the truth is.....they dont go to the NCAA for the hockey........they go there for the education......Toews is a classic example......he did not go to the NCAA for hockey he went for the Education that was free....his brother is going to likley be the next big example of this.
to start with its 16-20 in the CHL.MN_Gopher said:And throught this whole thread we have listed what maybe 50 or so names to prove a point. And how many players play NCAA and CHL. In the thousands. Yes Phaneuf and Crosby are talented 18 year olds that could have played in the NCAA and done very well. Ballard and Greene have asserted themselves as non-push overs and very tough young men from the NCAA. But thats 4 names. Was Crosby that good where he single handedly won the CHL championship? If you look and DU form this year to last year. They lost a lot of seniors but got in big name players. So why the struggles. Denver had solid seniors like Laatch, Fulram, Ulanski, Foster, Halme. Those are the guys that are not getting mentioned, But they are the ones that make the difference.
In your next post use Joe Schmo is better at 17-19 form the CHL vs Joe Schmo at 20-22 from the NCAA.
That is garbage......if canadian players choose the NCAA its 99.9% due to schooling.........sure they arent choosing schools where they will never get noticed while playing hockey.......but the reason being they go there is the school.MN_Gopher said:This is not entirely true. Mueller went to the CHL because he ws not big on school and wanted to focus on hockey. If by improving draft postion. That would mean that if Kessel, J. Johnson, E. Johnson, Dipietro, Heatley, Vanek, Towes would have gone in the CHL they would have improved on their projected or allready drafted 1-5 status. I could go onand on about many top NCAAers that went high. Thelen, Suter, Skille and Stafford. To name a few just out of the top 5.
And Kris Chucko said the reason he choose the NCAAwas strictly because of the hockey. Many other Candians have made simular comments about the NCAA as well.
phaneuf_fan_3 said:That is garbage......if canadian players choose the NCAA its 99.9% due to schooling.........sure they arent choosing schools where they will never get noticed while playing hockey.......but the reason being they go there is the school.
Players who would choose the NCAA over the CHL are doing it for less hitting possibly and this does not help your draft status if anything puts it in a worse place.......Perfect example is Mike Comrie......guy puts up stats in the NCAA and ppl say he cant do it in the hitting leagues.......he goes to the WHL and does it and gets a contract done by xmas.
MN_Gopher said:Would you like me to find the article. And Chucko is not a guy that shys from hitting either. Now why he had that contract. Free agent if he did not sig. Sig him or not. All Comrie did was force a hand.