If I'm not mistaken, aren't both Angelo Esposito and John Tavares both second on their team in scoring? Sure, they are very talented kids, but do you think they'd be second on a top-tier NCAA team such as Minnesota, BC, etc? I sincerely doubt it. Look at BC, where Brian Boyle, a junior who was taken in the 1st round in 2003, is second to Chris Collins, an undrafted 23 year old. Would Tavares or Esposito have more points than Boyle? I highly doubt it.
Ncaa/chl ?
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VOB said:
It's obvious your not going to concede your point, but 'cmon...let's not get rediculous.
At the CHL level, yes, Stafford, Oshie, Zajac, and to an extent, Toews - and even Spriko would be offensive juggernauts. You do realize if Stafford and Zajac played in the CHL, they'd be 1 round pick overagers. That's insane.
And Moncton has who? DuPuis, Goulet, Marchand, Karsums, Pineault? Yeah, they can compare
Even depth wise, there is no one on Monctons 3rd and 4th lines that can be considered a legitimate prospect of interest -- meaning they wouldn't have the talent level to overcome the age difference. Especially against UND's 3-4 liners who are mostly 82-84's
Seriously, only rare talents like Oshie, Toews, Kessel are good enough to overcome a significant difference in age. Again, apart from Bourdon and maybe Yandle....who on Moncton is on that level?
Zine said:It's obvious your not going to concede your point, but 'cmon...let's not get rediculous.
At the CHL level, yes, Stafford, Oshie, Zajac, and to an extent, Toews - and even Spriko would be offensive juggernauts. You do realize if Stafford and Zajac played in the CHL, they'd be 1 round pick overagers. That's insane.
And Moncton has who? DuPuis, Goulet, Marchand, Karsums, Pineault? Yeah, they can compare
Even depth wise, there is no one on Monctons 3rd and 4th lines that can be considered a legitimate prospect of interest -- meaning they wouldn't have the talent level to overcome the age difference. Especially against UND's 3-4 liners who are mostly 82-84's
Seriously, only rare talents like Oshie, Toews, Kessel are good enough to overcome a significant difference in age. Again, apart from Bourdon and maybe Yandle....who on Moncton is on that level?
And again, you are giving far too much credit to a player like Oshie to dominate in the CHL. Was he dominate in the WJC - no! His ppg equaled that of Pineualt! Who the heck does NoDak have on their third line? Erik Fabian??? Mike Pripich??? Kozek??? Oooohhhh, downright scary!!!
Like I explained before, the top end talent in the CHL is everybit as good as what is found in the NCAA. I mean look at Wolski, Brule, Bourdon...all these players impressed enough in their NHL camp that they were signed and made the opening roster before being sent back to Juniors. The CHL pumps out more of these players than the NCAA.
reidy said:
John Tavares is the second coming of Jason Spezza...except that he is better than Spezza, his scoring prowess is more like a Rick Nash (he is not as physical as Nash though) but his hockey sense and play making abilities are more in line with that of Spezza.
Now both Nash and Spezza stepped into the NHL as 18 year olds, they would have been freshman in college! That is how good Taveres is! He no doubt could make a NCAA team like Minnesota right now! Would he lead them in scoring? Probably not because he'd be burried behind Potulney, Irmen and the like. He would contribute though! Now you have to remember that Oshawa is one of the worst teams in the OHL and he is being given loads of ice time. Were he playing for Kitchener, he certainly would not be on the 1st line either.
Taveres is a special player, who will be in the NHL as an 18 year old. That can only mean that, similiar to Nash, Spezza, Staal...he will already be too good for the NCAA as an 18 year old!
I'm not disagreeing with you that they will probably be in the NHL at 18, but they're doing exceptional in the CHL NOW! You're proving my point! They couldn't perform at that level in the NCAA right now, it's just not possible. Dany Heatley was a very good player in the NCAA for the 2 years he played there, but I don't think anyone is willing to call his 1999-2001 seasons "dominant," and keep in mind he was 20 years old at the time. He was essentially scoring at the same clip as Tavares and Esposito are scoring now, albeit he was 3 and 4 years older, respectively. Similar PPGs in this league, and a 4 year age difference tells me the younger players must be on the same level as the older player, but I think we all know that a 20 year old Dany Heatley in the NCAA is >>>>>> Esposito / Tavares at 16-17 in the CHL.
See my point?
See my point?
But my point is that Danny Heatley was not in the NHL at the age of 18 but rather the age of 20. That means that Taveres at the age of 16 is>>>>>>>>that of Heatley at 16 and probably = to him at 18(where he was a ppg player).
See my point.
See my point.
Did you just say that a 16 year old Tavares is equal to an 18 year old Heatley?
I sincerely doubt that.
I sincerely doubt that.
reidy said:
Why? Was Heatley ready for the NHL at the age of 18? No. Will Taveres be ready, we have to assume yes. That means he must be a hell of lot better than what Heatley was at the age of 16. When would Heatley have caught up to a 16 year old phenom like Taveres? At the age of 17? How about 18?
See my point?
Who says Heatley wasn't ready for the NHL at 18? Thomas Vanek was probably ready for the NHL at 18, but he opted to play for Minnesota for 2 years. Perhaps it was preference?
And come on, Dany Heatley is one of the top 5 players in the NHL right now. The way you're building him up, Tavares should have more hype than Crosby.
And come on, Dany Heatley is one of the top 5 players in the NHL right now. The way you're building him up, Tavares should have more hype than Crosby.
Highly unlikely that Vanek was ready for the NHL as an 18 year old...come to think of it, downright impossible! He did well as a 20 year old in the AHL (less than a ppg) and is doing fine, for a rookie, as a 21 year old.
I don't think Heatley was ready either, at 19 maybe.
I'll tell you what about Taveres, this kid is real good and he is, like I said, his scoring prowess is similiar to say a Nash, who at the age of 19, scored 41 goals in the NHL. There is no way Heatley could have done that at the age of 19.
I don't think Heatley was ready either, at 19 maybe.
I'll tell you what about Taveres, this kid is real good and he is, like I said, his scoring prowess is similiar to say a Nash, who at the age of 19, scored 41 goals in the NHL. There is no way Heatley could have done that at the age of 19.
VOB said:
You honestly believe T.J. Oshie would be doing the same as Adam Pineault if Oshie played in the CHL...you're crazy. And you're comparing them based on WJC production?
Oshie=Pineault
VOB said:
If you notice, Mueller is first in ppg on Everett, followed closely by another '88, Hamill.
So your telling me that a team whose 2 best point producers are '88s could compete with a top college program? Especially in light of Toews only putting up 18 points as a 2nd liner? Again, rediculous.
So it's safe to say Tavares is a lock for the #1 pick in whichever draft he's eligible for, and should become a generational forward?
reidy said:
As of right now, yes he is a lock for the number one spot in the 08 draft. He would be a lock for the number one spot in the 07 as well, if he were elligible. Heck, say he was elligible for this year's draft...would you really take Kessel of Johnson ahead of him?????
VOB said:
See, your trying to prove that 16 year olds can play at an NCAA level (like they do in the CHL) and then use a guy like Tavares as an example.
Name another 16 year old even on the same planet as Tavares?
Zine said:
Travares is actually a 15 YEAR OLD wonder kid. And VOB, he's not eligable till 2009.
Zine said:You honestly believe T.J. Oshie would be doing the same as Adam Pineault if Oshie played in the CHL...you're crazy. And you're comparing them based on WJC production?
Oshie=Pineault
What else do you have to compare them on bright guy? Oshie played in the WJC as a 19 year old and garnered one point! Pineault played in the WJC as an 18 year old and equaled Oshie's stats. I like how you ride Pineault. Perhaps you should have checked out last summer's U.S. evaluation camp. He was one of the best players there. Gee, I don't think Oshie even registered an assist at that camp!!! You know, if Oshie had played as well as Boby Ryan (7pts and 2nd in goal scoring and none of them were the padded variety attained against Norway), I might say you have something but one lousy point doesn't point to an offensive star to me! Perahps if Toews would have equaled Muellers 6pts, again I might say you have something...but he didn't! Those CHL players did better than your "exceptional talents"!
Yeah and Mueller is a more offensive player than Toews and yet its not like Mueller is in the top 20 in scoring in the dub. So according to your logic...he wouldn't even make a WHL allstar team...let alone a CHL allstar team!!!!! BTW, I didn't know Everett was a top team in the CHL. Last time I checked, they were an 8th place team in the WHL.
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Vob, what else could he compare them on "bright guy?"
Gee, I don't know, their freshman years in the NCAA?
Pineault - 29 games, 8 points
TJ Oshie - 30 games, 30 points
See my point?!
But yeah, the younger Oshie is comparable to Pineault. You're right.
Gee, I don't know, their freshman years in the NCAA?
Pineault - 29 games, 8 points
TJ Oshie - 30 games, 30 points
See my point?!
But yeah, the younger Oshie is comparable to Pineault. You're right.
reidy said:
Gee didn't know Pineualt was playing in the NCAA this year as a freshman. Silly me, I thought he was playing for Moncton! BTW, Oshie and Pinuealt are both 86 so the younger Ohsie is the same as the younger Pineault and yeah I'd say they are comparable!
Heck did Oshie even garner a point per game in the USHL last year? 5pts in 11 games?!?!?
Gee Pineualt would have ripped up that league! So since you guys love to tranpose stats to differing leagues...based on Ohies play the USHL is>>>than the NCAA 
See my point?
you guys do realize that what you are both trying to prove is impossible. You guys are arguing opinions. I'm surprised you've managed to go this long.
The USHL is a 60 game league, he played 11 games after he was Minnesota high school's best hockey player. Mighty hard to go from USHS to the USHL and be a PPG for 11 games, don't you think?
And way to go into semantics; Oshie is 7 months younger than Pineault, and is playing his freshman year this season, whereas Pineault was a 4th-liner at BC in 03-04. Furthermore, Oshie was one of Team USA's best players in the WJC (don't look at points alone, the kid was dynamite every time he touched the ice), and Pineault couldn't even crack that squad, despite being 7 months older. To say they are comparable is a joke. Oshie is a much better player at this point in time. Pineault wouldn't be a PPG player at BC this year (which would be his Jr. yr), whereas Oshie is doing that as a freshman in arguably a tougher conference.
SMP?
And way to go into semantics; Oshie is 7 months younger than Pineault, and is playing his freshman year this season, whereas Pineault was a 4th-liner at BC in 03-04. Furthermore, Oshie was one of Team USA's best players in the WJC (don't look at points alone, the kid was dynamite every time he touched the ice), and Pineault couldn't even crack that squad, despite being 7 months older. To say they are comparable is a joke. Oshie is a much better player at this point in time. Pineault wouldn't be a PPG player at BC this year (which would be his Jr. yr), whereas Oshie is doing that as a freshman in arguably a tougher conference.
SMP?
RUSqueelin said:
Rus, I said long ago that we would have to agree to disagree but Zine couldn't let it go and you know me, I can go on all daaaaaay looooong
reidy said:
Well why should it? He should have smoked the USHL shouldnt' he? Again according to you guys this most certainly proves that the USHL is superior!
Woooowww!! Seven whole months!! That's an eternity!!! That means Pineault was a 3/4th liner as a 17 year old, when our little guy Oshie was still playing highschool.
Actually I liked Oshie, provided some real energy but dynamite? Come on! His one point says it all. He was a non factor point wise! Ummm have you been reading what I said about last summer's evaluation camp??? Pineault performed quite well and based on that performance he should have made the team. After all, he made it as an 18 year old but because USA Hockey has such a hard on for the NCAA, they left off some very good CHL players...and of course they paid the price for it, now didn't they!
Uhh DUH! That's what Oshie is this year!! And you say they are not comparable??
SMP?
VOB said:Gee didn't know Pineualt was playing in the NCAA this year as a freshman. Silly me, I thought he was playing for Moncton! BTW, Oshie and Pinuealt are both 86 so the younger Ohsie is the same as the younger Pineault and yeah I'd say they are comparable!
Heck did Oshie even garner a point per game in the USHL last year? 5pts in 11 games?!?!?
See my point?
VOB, we all have our oppinions, but sometimes people are just wrong. I challenge you to go to the poll board and post an Oshie/Pineault poll. I guarantee it would not be a pretty sight.
VOB said:
It's not like Mueller has only played 39 games either.
If he had played in every Everett game, he'd be 9th in WHL scoring - that's seems like All-star calibre to me.
Doesn't it tell you something when the 9th leading point getter in the WHL (Mueller) wouldn't even be a 1st liner on Minnesota? That's comparable to Toews (2nd liner on UND), seeing that Toews is a more well rounded player and just better right now (hence his probable higher draft pick status).
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