Ncaa/chl ?

[Hasbro]

Point is Comrie went to the WHL (a better league) to show the scouts and teams that he could play in a grittier tougher league and still compete well....if you think that chucko chose minnesota based solely on hockey ur way off base......he got an education at a school which he wouldnt be able to had he played in the CHL not without at least 1 year of not being elligible at least.

I do notice you didnt comment on Toews or any of the other players who have gone there based on schooling and NOT HOCKEY.

Didn't Comrie go to the WHL to gain leverage using the Van Ryn exemption?

 

[MN_Gopher]

Point is Comrie went to the WHL (a better league) to show the scouts and teams that he could play in a grittier tougher league and still compete well....if you think that chucko chose minnesota based solely on hockey ur way off base......he got an education at a school which he wouldnt be able to had he played in the CHL not without at least 1 year of not being elligible at least.

I do notice you didnt comment on Toews or any of the other players who have gone there based on schooling and NOT HOCKEY.

By better league. You mean a WHL team will handle a NCAA team? Or the WHL puts out better players than the NCAA?

 

[Zine]

Sorry, but again will have to disagree.....production does matter, or should I say lack of production. Oshie was not a scoring threat every time he was on the ice. He did provide his team with the needed energy it sometimes needed but he was not a constant offensive threat. All the players I listed did provide some offense....and in the case of Spezza's 02 production, stats were somewhat warped due to him fighting an injury and flu bug. Spezza, however, did prove himself in the prior year's tourney. Oshie not only had this WJC to put up points, but the summer evaluation camp as well, where once again he did not and was once again showed up by Mueller (and Pineault) in this category.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just think you put too much emphasis on a few select games. You're right however, production does matter, but (because of the many reasons I gave) you can’t judge or compare players based on statistics of 6-7 games. You judge them based on their yearly production. Again, if that were the case, an awful lot of terrible players would be NHL all-stars. But, each to his own I guess.

Isn't it, those are just 7 I listed from a simple quick random search, there are probably more but again you are missing the point...how did these players score less in a lower league and more in the NCAA. One is perhaps an anomoly but 7????It couldn't have anything to do with how these players were used could it? No according to you it must be because these players found the NCAA to be easier and went out and proved it by scoring more "in the long haul".

Yes, 7 IS an anomoly.
Again though, you’re citing rare instances and not looking at the big picture, or seeing things in general terms.
Any serious hockey fan knows that it's rather rare for a USHL player to jump right into the NCAA and actually do better. It’s not the norm – not by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, c’mon, gimme a break.
Why is that? It’s because the NCAA is a better league. That’s undeniable.

Again, in general terms…the vast majority of NCAA players do better in the CHL. You can throw out any player’s stat or excuse you want (players being used differently, etc, etc), but, ON AVERAGE, when the MAJORITY of players do better in a league…it means that that league is inferior.

Are there players who’ve done better in the NHL than AHL…sure there are – many, many more than 7. However, it’s still pretty rare and not the norm.
But based on these rare instances (or how these players were used) is the AHL=NHL?

Remember, its not like Auffrey, Lehun, Lalonde ect are or have dominated the CHL...rather they are putting up more points because there are more goals being scored.

I agree that it’s a higher scoring league, but if you look closely, most (with a few exceptions of course) are doing better in relation to their CHL teammates than they did with their NCAA teammates. Despite the stats, most are in more important roles on their CHL teams and rank higher in scoring within that CHL team than they did on their NCAA squad. Sure, the talent between certain teams may be uneven, but all in all, it evens out.

Look it, have you ever played in both leagues? Thelen has and you know what he said. Mueller played in what 15 NCAA games last year and yet he said he was shocked by how fast and physical the dub was and was taken by surprise and had to adjust very quickly.

I would expect Thelen to say something like that…he’s one of the few who did better in the NCAA. Remember, he came from the CCHA which isn’t, top to bottom, a quality league. Even so, he never said it was better. Mueller says the same thing. They say it’s more physical and it’s quicker, more NHL style -- which makes sense seeing that many NCAA teams play on larger ice surfaces and play more of a ‘euro style’ game. The NHL/CHL style doesn’t mean it’s better. Well, maybe for preparing players for the NHL game, but it has nothing to do with level of play. Just look at the olympics.
NCAA players that play in the CHL seem to have no trouble with it.

 

[VOB]

Yes, 7 IS an anomoly.
Again though, you’re citing rare instances and not looking at the big picture, or seeing things in general terms.
Any serious hockey fan knows that it's rather rare for a USHL player to jump right into the NCAA and actually do better. It’s not the norm – not by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, c’mon, gimme a break.
Why is that? It’s because the NCAA is a better league. That’s undeniable.

No one here would argue that the NCAA isn't far superior to the USHL but how is it that some, albeit a small percentage, can do better in the NCAA than the USHL???? The point I was trying to make was that statististics do not tell the whole story and just because a player has a higher ppg stat, it doesn't mean that one league is better than the other since there are multiple factors at play, not least of which are how the player is being used and what is the overall style of play employed by the majority of the teams in the league as a whole.

I agree that it’s a higher scoring league, but if you look closely, most (with a few exceptions of course) are doing better in relation to their CHL teammates than they did with their NCAA teammates.

Some yes and some no. Jonathan Lehun (a prized St Cloud recruit) was 10th in scoring on his team as a freshman and with a player's general progression we can assume that he most likely would have been anywhere between 4-8th in scoring as a soph. In his first year of OHL action, he was 6th in scoring - not a whole heck of alot of difference.

I would expect Thelen to say something like that…he’s one of the few who did better in the NCAA. Remember, he came from the CCHA which isn’t, top to bottom, a quality league. Even so, he never said it was better. Mueller says the same thing. They say it’s more physical and it’s quicker, more NHL style --

Well that was my original point from the beginning! The game in the NCAA is played differently! Take a NCAA team, such as Michigan, have them play in Peterborough, and see what happens! My money would be on the Petes. Take the same two teams, transpose them back to Ann Arbor, a totally different game and a different outcome!

I am glad that we can at least agree that the CHL is better at preparing its players for the NHL.

 

[Zine]

The point I was trying to make was that statististics do not tell the whole story and just because a player has a higher ppg stat, it doesn't mean that one league is better than the other since there are multiple factors at play, not least of which are how the player is being used and what is the overall style of play employed by the majority of the teams in the league as a whole.

Your argument earlier against Oshie was that stats tell the whole story. Despite only playing 7 games, you wouldn't let the fact go that he only scored 1 point.
Now your saying stats don't tell the whole story because multiple factors come into play?

Again, certain leagues may be easier for select players because of various factors, but when the vast majority of players find it harder to play in a particular league....it's generally agreed on that that league is more difficult.

Look at last year when many players went to europe - most performed better. Of course, quite a few didn't, but the majority did. It didn't matter that the euopean game is totally different; or that players had to be used in different situations or roles. In a good majority of cases, NHLers rose to the top and played a more significant role on their euro teams than they did with their NHL teams.

Because of this...its generally assumed that the NHL > european leagues.
Its no different that the NCAA > CHL.

Some yes and some no. Jonathan Lehun (a prized St Cloud recruit) was 10th in scoring on his team as a freshman and with a player's general progression we can assume that he most likely would have been anywhere between 4-8th in scoring as a soph. In his first year of OHL action, he was 6th in scoring - not a whole heck of alot of difference..

Correction....MOST yes and some no. One more time, when a good majority of layers do better in a league, it's agreed that that league is easier to play in. There's no way around it.

Well that was my original point from the beginning! The game in the NCAA is played differently! Take a NCAA team, such as Michigan, have them play in Peterborough, and see what happens! My money would be on the Petes. Take the same two teams, transpose them back to Ann Arbor, a totally different game and a different outcome!.

Because all the NCAArs doing better in the CHL means that it wouldn't take too much for NCAA teams to adjust to the CHL style of play. Of couse Thelen is different, but, again, he's an isolated case.
Once the NCAA teams adjust to the style of game, they would beat any CHL team.

I am glad that we can at least agree that the CHL is better at preparing its players for the NHL.

Yep. No argument here.

 

[stockwizard*]

Your argument earlier against Oshie was that stats tell the whole story. Despite only playing 7 games, you wouldn't let the fact go that he only scored 1 point.
Now your saying stats don't tell the whole story because multiple factors come into play?

Again, certain leagues may be easier for select players because of various factors, but when the vast majority of players find it harder to play in a particular league....it's generally agreed on that that league is more difficult.

Look at last year when many players went to europe - most performed better. Of course, quite a few didn't, but the majority did. It didn't matter that the euopean game is totally different; or that players had to be used in different situations or roles. In a good majority of cases, NHLers rose to the top and played a more significant role on their euro teams than they did with their NHL teams.

Because of this...its generally assumed that the NHL > european leagues.
Its no different that the NCAA > CHL.




Correction....MOST yes and some no. One more time, when a good majority of layers do better in a league, it's agreed that that league is easier to play in. There's no way around it.





Because all the NCAArs doing better in the CHL means that it wouldn't take too much for NCAA teams to adjust to the CHL style of play. Of couse Thelen is different, but, again, he's an isolated case.
Once the NCAA teams adjust to the style of game, they would beat any CHL team.



Yep. No argument here.

I think VOB has given you more than enough of his time.

If you can't comprehend by now that the CHL is a superiorior developmental league, has superior talent, and produces more quality NHL players, you are incapable of rational thought.

 

[VOB]

Your argument earlier against Oshie was that stats tell the whole story. Despite only playing 7 games, you wouldn't let the fact go that he only scored 1 point.
Now your saying stats don't tell the whole story because multiple factors come into play?

my arguement here centered on Oshie's and Toews ability to perform better or worse in the dub using Mueller as a comparison. Mueller outscored both of them, in the same tournament, against Toews, and playing with Oshie. That is a solid comparison, unlike when a player such as Comrie defects to the WHL, performs better than what he did previously in the NCAA, and people like you come in and assume that the NCAA must be superior since his stats increased. For the upteenth time though Zine, what you do not know is how Comrie would have performed in the NCAA in what would have been his Junior season. We can safely assume that the would have tore the college ranks up as well since he cracked a NHL roster that year.

Because all the NCAArs doing better in the CHL means that it wouldn't take too much for NCAA teams to adjust to the CHL style of play. Of couse Thelen is different, but, again, he's an isolated case.
Once the NCAA teams adjust to the style of game, they would beat any CHL team

Thelen's and isolated case? What of Maiser, what of Lehun, what of Lalonde???? What of Nickerson? Is Auffrey ripping it up in the OHL?? Is Oreskovich doing all that much better in the OHL?????

Michigan would have a very very tough time adjusting to the Petes style of play.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I think VOB has given you more than enough of his time.

If you can't comprehend by now that the CHL is a superiorior developmental league, has superior talent, and produces more quality NHL players, you are incapable of rational thought.

It is a better devlopmental league, but in a straight up game VOB still thinks a CHL team will handle a NCAA team. Thats were the difference is.

 

[MN_Gopher]

my arguement here centered on Oshie's and Toews ability to perform better or worse in the dub using Mueller as a comparison. Mueller outscored both of them, in the same tournament, against Toews, and playing with Oshie. That is a solid comparison, unlike when a player such as Comrie defects to the WHL, performs better than what he did previously in the NCAA, and people like you come in and assume that the NCAA must be superior since his stats increased. For the upteenth time though Zine, what you do not know is how Comrie would have performed in the NCAA in what would have been his Junior season. We can safely assume that the would have tore the college ranks up as well since he cracked a NHL roster that year.

You cannot say how good Comrie would have done either. Look at both Sertich and Sterling this year. Their points have fallen off. Guys like Pohl only really had one superior year. His senior year. When Parrish defected he was only 4th on his team in scoring. And had Mullen not defected also Parrish might have led his team his junior year either. You cannot fight a what if with a what if. Parrish goes from 27 goals in 35 games to 54 in 54. Hmmm. You telling me that Parrish would have averaged a goal a game in the NCAA? Matt Foy 24 points in 31 games, to 132 in 68 games. Foy was not going to come close to 2 points a game in the NCAA.

Lehun goes for 16 in 35 in NCAA then goes to 37 in 58. Still an improvement. Went from 9th on team in NCAA to 6th in CHL. A push i guess. Showed a natural progression there. Certinly was not overwelmed.

Maiser did much the same was 7th at Boston and 8th at Seattle. Wow he really fell off according to his team.

Auffrey 25 games played 8 points. Then 34 ponts in 45 games. Thats an improvement. If he went to a much tougher league, wouldn't that natural progression be hurt. Looks like he is doing just fine.

The average guys are doing about the same and keeping on thier natural progression of getting better. Again if it were a tougher league like you say the progression would take a hit. And they would fall off in comparioson to the team they are on. But hey they are average anyways. Future NHL guys like Comrie, Foy, Parrish all go way way up.

 

[MN_Gopher]

my arguement here centered on Oshie's and Toews ability to perform better or worse in the dub using Mueller as a comparison. Mueller outscored both of them, in the same tournament, against Toews, and playing with Oshie. That is a solid comparison, unlike when a player such as Comrie defects to the WHL, performs better than what he did previously in the NCAA, and people like you come in and assume that the NCAA must be superior since his stats increased. For the upteenth time though Zine, what you do not know is how Comrie would have performed in the NCAA in what would have been his Junior season. We can safely assume that the would have tore the college ranks up as well since he cracked a NHL roster that year.

Does this mean that Kessel is better than Schremp, because he out scored Schremp while playing for the same team. And if Schremp can average well over 2 points a game in the OHL would Kessel then be at 3 points per game. And Schremp would then be at about 1.10 in the NCAA. Using that same line of thought. And if that is so. The highest scoring player in the CHL would not be leading very many teams in the NCAA.

 

[VOB]

Does this mean that Kessel is better than Schremp, because he out scored Schremp while playing for the same team. And if Schremp can average well over 2 points a game in the OHL would Kessel then be at 3 points per game. And Schremp would then be at about 1.10 in the NCAA. Using that same line of thought. And if that is so. The highest scoring player in the CHL would not be leading very many teams in the NCAA.

I belive that Kessel's offensive skills are a tad better than Schremp's,its the rest of his game that I worry about. Like I said before though, take away the Norway game, then Kessel is only a couple of points ahead of Schremp....but yes, if Kessel were playing for Saginaw in the O, he would be their leading scorer and one of the O's top players....then again he is one of Minnys top players, going along at a 1.21 ppg and only a small handful of players in your entire WCHA have a better ppg total than he does. I don't think he would be leading the O in scoring though, as Saginaw does not have the depth and talent that London does.

 

[CrimsonHawk]

So my question is when people say the CHL is tougher, more physical and better league what are they basing it on.

As a whole the NCAA may not be as physical but if you watch the WCHA league games in the NCAA its a very physical league and full of great games. The refs is the WHCA seem to let them play the game out more which makes it physical and all around great hockey.

CarleForHobey.com

 

[5mn Major]

I belive that Kessel's offensive skills are a tad better than Schremp's,its the rest of his game that I worry about. Like I said before though, take away the Norway game, then Kessel is only a couple of points ahead of Schremp....but yes, if Kessel were playing for Saginaw in the O, he would be their leading scorer and one of the O's top players....then again he is one of Minnys top players, going along at a 1.21 ppg and only a small handful of players in your entire WCHA have a better ppg total than he does. I don't think he would be leading the O in scoring though, as Saginaw does not have the depth and talent that London does.

Now if I'm getting a correct picture of what many chl boosters are telling me...that the chl is a true scorers league...wouldn't Kessel tear a hole in the league? ie...if as you say the rest of his game is a concern and the NCAA sets a higher bar by exposing the balance of his game...