Confirmed Trade: [MTL/PIT/SJS] Karlsson, Pitlick, Hamaliuk, SJS'26 3rd to PIT; Granlund, Hoffman, Rutta, PIT'24 1st to SJS; Petry, DeSmith, Legare, PIT'25 2nd to MTL

[Prairie Habs]

No it's like how EN goals against say nothing about how good a player is 5 on 5.

Even if Karlsson was on the ice for every empty net goal against the Sharks last season and we subtracted that from his even strength against totals and DIDN'T subtract it from anyone else in the league, he would still lead the league in even strength goals against.

 

[ijuka]

1) He was. Then he was on for 26 more...

2) Is this like how the Canes weren't swept?

He was a top 5 player on the sharks in terms of xGF%. And he was 96-96 in 5v5. The team without him was 66-124 in 5v5. Are you saying that's reflective of a negative impact?

McDavid for example was 75-62, while his team without him was 116-106. So, Karlsson had a clearly stronger positive influence on his team than McDavid on his, in 5v5.

 

[BLONG7]

Are people for real arguing if Karlsson is a good or bad player? How many bad Dmen has won the Norris.
With bad i mean a negative overall impact on your team.

Last year, he was the absolute best offensive dman in the game............he plays a fantastic 100ft game.
He has been for years pretty bad in his own end.................that's all most are saying.
Not a knock, it just is what it is. Ottawa or SJ he just is not very good in his own end.......the eye test from watching the Sens alot for years is what I based this on.......................didn't see much of his time in SJ but the numbers and hi-lights just don't lie.

For some reason, Dubas thinks he is better than Letang to help the offense?

 

[Prairie Habs]

He was a top 5 player on the sharks in terms of xGF%. And he was 96-96 in 5v5. The team without him was 66-124 in 5v5. Are you saying that's reflective of a negative impact?

McDavid for example was 75-62, while his team without him was 116-106. So, Karlsson had a clearly stronger positive influence on his team than McDavid on his, in 5v5.

No, I'm saying it isn't elite Norris level play. Why would the bar for that to be better than the rest of the Sharks?

 

[ijuka]

No, I'm saying it isn't elite Norris level play. Why would the bar for that to be better than the rest of the Sharks?

Because that's what his team was.

34.74% -> 50.00%.

Tell me which defenseman had a stronger positive influence on his own team's 5v5 scoring %.

 

[Prairie Habs]

Because that's what his team was.

34.74% -> 50.00%.

Tell me which defenseman had a stronger positive influence on his own team's 5v5 scoring %.

Is the Norris the award for being the tallest dwarf or the best Dman in the league?

 

[ijuka]

Is the Norris the award for being the tallest dwarf or the best Dman in the league?

I'd say that having the strongest positive influence on your team's performance out of all defensemen in NHL is a pretty good starting point for what it's about. Then there's the other stuff such as the strongest offensive season in 30 years.

He had over 50% more 5v5 points than the second-best offensive 5v5 defenseman in NHL. Of course, you might not understand just how great of an achievement that is, so take a look at when it was last accomplished.

The last time it was close, was a 47% gap in 11-12. Also by Erik Karlsson, by the way. 48.4% was by Leetch in 96-97.

The last time the feat was accomplished was in 1985-1986 when Paul Coffey had 90 ES points, and #2 had 49. Paul Coffey scored 138 points that season, and of course, was playing with a 215-point prime Wayne Gretzky.

Karlsson's teammates on the Sharks... let's say they're not on the level of prime Gretzky.

Of course, if we want to look for when this was accomplished without the help of Gretzky, we need to go all the way back to Bobby Orr.

 

[Giskard]

Are people for real arguing if Karlsson is a good or bad player? How many bad Dmen has won the Norris.
With bad i mean a negative overall impact on your team.

Imagine being so bad to win it 3 times

 

[Church Hill]

You can even see with your own eye when a player is good or not

I fundamentally believe this, too. This is a skill that's developed as we actively watch more hockey. I emphasize actively because there are many of us guilty of scrolling on phones or s**t-posting on HFBoards or doing 1,000 other things while a game is happening.

But if you watch and pay attention, you'll evaluate players infinitely better than by using the latest statistical model that someone champions.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No, I'm saying it isn't elite Norris level play. Why would the bar for that to be better than the rest of the Sharks?

Why are you focusing entirely on goals against? That stat is affected by a lot of things outside a single player's control (including shoddy goaltending).

Karlsson's various advanced stats at 5on5 are really good considering the shitshow team he was on. His ability to tilt the ice shows up in the fact he was on the ice for almost 200 more scoring chances for than against, and was on the ice for over 80 more high danger chances for than against. The Sharks also outshot the opposition by around 80 shots when he was on the ice.

Add to that his PP prowess and I'm not sure how that's not elite? Goals against is such a flawed way of determining a player's impact considering it's arguably the singularly most "team" dependent stat you can find.

 

[SweSensFan]

Why are you focusing entirely on goals against? That stat is affected by a lot of things outside a single player's control (including shoddy goaltending).

Karlsson's various advanced stats at 5on5 are really good considering the shitshow team he was on. His ability to tilt the ice shows up in the fact he was on the ice for almost 200 more scoring chances for than against, and was on the ice for over 80 more high danger chances for than against. The Sharks also outshot the opposition by around 80 shots when he was on the ice.

Add to that his PP prowess and I'm not sure how that's not elite? Goals against is such a flawed way of determining a player's impact considering it's arguably the singularly most "team" dependent stat you can find.

Totally. Karlsson is absolutely elite offensively and pretty mediocre defensively but his overall impact is VERY positive AND he has proven he can be good in the playoffs too.

Also his stats on 5vs5 is mad this last season being third in the league and within two points of the two players above him, McD and Pasta.

It puzzles me how so many people think he will only have an impact on PP in penguins or that his overall impact will be negative!

 

[Turin]

What on bloody Earth is this NHL ape-jive?!

Numbers game?!

What's wrong with a proper ol' eye test?!

Or see a player just in it for the mighty dollar.

You can even see with your own eye when a player is good or not - on electric guitar and electric hockey - if not then get out of the game and play Play Station instead.

Or in it just for the money.

Sweet Yesus ...

Ok I watched Karlsson and he’s good and was good last year too. Happy?

 

[Farmboy Patty]

It seems to me that basically the
conversation in this thread boils down to people who think that a player is a Norris/elite level defenseman is either a player who

A) has a high positive +/- statistic and plays “at home”

B) has proven himself to impact his teams chance to win games by catalyzing the offence and win games in such a manner that it’s obvious for the opponents, and the player tilts the ice in a superior manner

The Norris trophy isn’t a “points trophy by a D-man”, it’s the trophy that goes to the D-man having the biggest positive impact on his team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Why are you focusing entirely on goals against? That stat is affected by a lot of things outside a single player's control (including shoddy goaltending).

Karlsson's various advanced stats at 5on5 are really good considering the shitshow team he was on. His ability to tilt the ice shows up in the fact he was on the ice for almost 200 more scoring chances for than against, and was on the ice for over 80 more high danger chances for than against. The Sharks also outshot the opposition by around 80 shots when he was on the ice.

Add to that his PP prowess and I'm not sure how that's not elite? Goals against is such a flawed way of determining a player's impact considering it's arguably the singularly most "team" dependent stat you can find.

Karlsson's advanced stats have consistently looked better than his actual results. They don't tell the complete story with this player

 

[Pavelski2112]

Karlsson's advanced stats have consistently looked better than his actual results. They don't tell the complete story with this player

His actual results being the best offensive season by a dman in 30 years, and a 3rd Norris trophy

Those advanced stats must be pretty damn good

 

[quat]

Too old? Imagine the boners if one of your teams received Crosby, Malkin, or Letang in a trade.

Or Messier! Like how enthusiastic Vancouver fans were to get that hard working dream boat on their roster a few years ago?

heh

Imagine being so bad to win it 3 times

I think they were pity wins

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

… I don't want to see Karlsson win a cup. Dude is a POS.

Yo, I found Hoffman’s wife’s account.

 

[Turin]

Karlsson's advanced stats have consistently looked better than his actual results. They don't tell the complete story with this player

They seem to line up exactly with his results.. being the most productive defenseman offensively of his generation. He gives up a lot to gain more.

 

[ZEBROA]

He will be on a diffrent system on Pittsburgh . If he is in same shape as this year he will probably get around 80+ points while having better defensive stats. A lot depends on how the teammates convert his passes. But it will be exciting to watch. As a Leaf fan i dont care i Dubas fails or not. As a Swede i realy hope Erik Karlsson succede.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And I'm saying if they think they're going to get big name Norris level play they will be disappointed.

Do you think they're going to get considerably better offense and transition from the back end by swapping out Petry for Karlsson?

 

[Ignatius]

It puzzles me how so many people think he will only have an impact on PP in penguins or that his overall impact will be negative!

These sentiments are not even about EK65, it's about Penguin haters just trying to manufacture some narrative to tear the Pens down. If EK65 was never traded to Pittsburgh these haters good likely have nothing but glowing things to say about him and probably go out of their way to rationalize his goodness bad years notwithstanding.

Personally I prefer when the hatred quotient against the Pens is on the rise, any good fan feeds on this.

 

[Brent Burns]

Just an fyi the Sharks fans disparaging Karlsson in this thread are only a minority. Majority of fans think he will kick ass in PIT and may even be rooting for him. Reading this thread you’d think the guy shouldn’t even be in the league

 

[Fatty McLardy]

The league has changed A LOT since then. That was peak dead puck era. Speed not nearly as important as it is in today’s game.

I’m very much enjoying Pens fans optimism. It’s going to be very fun to watch this team crash and burn.

Did the Red Wings miss the playoffs in 2001?

I too enjoyed the Rangers fans optimism when they acquired all the top guys during the TDL only to not even make it past the 1st round....

 

[KrisLetAngry]

The league has changed A LOT since then. That was peak dead puck era. Speed not nearly as important as it is in today’s game.

I’m very much enjoying Pens fans optimism. It’s going to be very fun to watch this team crash and burn.

Did the Red Wings miss the playoffs in 2001?

Coming up on that 30 year no cups huh.

But honestly most of us pens fans just want to make playoffs and win some rounds. We are quite pleased winning 3 cups during this Era. It's pretty wild to think the Pens have won 5 cups and the Rangers 4 with a 40 year headstart

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

Pittsburg fans next in line to defend Karl against the onslaught of criticism from now 29 other fanbases.

Long live Karl.