Proposal: MTL - DET

[J15]

Hmm, very good post, except for the part that I said the red wings would be competitive in 3-4 years. lol

This lineup is competitive under that exact assumption. If you think this lineup would be competitive next year you're out to lunch bud. you have players on that roster, including your entire top line + two top 9 forwards + 3 defense men that have played a combined 30 nhl games right now. Really far fetched of you to assume this is going to be a competitive team in less than anything but 3 years. Which is exactly what I said? So please tell me what exactly was awful about my post???

You're assuming in 2 years time, 3 NHL rookies will be producing like first line forwards? Where are you getting player X? What if you draft 2-3-4? What if half the players in the above-mentioned roster don't pan out? You're riding a whole lot of assumptions lol

I guess it's a matter of what competitive means. I don't think they're going to be near the bottom of the league again next year, and I certainly think they could be in the playoffs in the 21-22 season. Zadina was doing fine in a top 6 role this year before his injury, so I don't think that's a stretch. If we draft Stuzle/Byfield then Fabbri could easily fill the remaining top 6 winger role. If we draft Lafreniere then I could see Larkin playing on that line and signing a FA to fill the 2C spot. What was awful about your post?

That is by no means a competitive team LOL. Lets break it down per player:

Mantha/Larkin/Bertuzzi - Respectable 1st line. Definitely nowhere near what you want as your first line on a contender, not a single one of them has or projects as a PPG type player and lack "elite" factor.
rest of the team has Fabbri as a plug in top 6 option that works. Literally the rest of your forward group is awful.

Zadina has already shown he can be a top 6 forward. Rasmussen, Veleno, Bergrren and Hirose will all realistically be able to compete on either the 2nd/3rd line within 2 years, that's really not a stretch. Svechnikov and Smith are also likely going to be NHL players.

You have absolutely no depth on this team, are banking on 3-4 prospects to reach their ceilings (that are nowhere near elite) and you have the worst D in the league. Team is FAR from contending. Give me a break lol.

Again, out of all the criticism you can make about the Wings, this is not one of them. I also think your criticism of Veleno and Rasmussen make it pretty clear that you haven't done anything more stat watch and read 6 month old reviews. While there are legitimate concerns about Rasmussen's injuries, he was easily Grand Rapid's best forward when he was healthy and played very well in the 1C spot.

 

[alasania94]

Did you just try to prove your point that top 9 forward is the best case scenario for Veleno by bolding a journalist’s writing that he’s got 2C potential?

I didn’t even need to read the full post. You defeated yourself.

He projects safely as a 3rd line center, that's what it says (enough skill to POTENTIALLY become a 2nd line center). Let me go on to say that I absolutely love Veleno, but he has been underwhelming for being so hyped. He's your 3rd best prospect (after Zadina & Seider)

Defeated again.

 

[TS Quint]

He projects safely as a 3rd line center, that's what it says (enough skill to POTENTIALLY become a 2nd line center). Let me go on to say that I absolutely love Veleno, but he has been underwhelming for being so hyped. He's your 3rd best prospect (after Zadina & Seider)

Defeated again.

As a Wings fan I don't think you are being unreasonable. Some fans sometimes confuse a prospects realistic expectation with their ceiling.

The Wings have had a ton of picks over the last 3 drafts and the upcoming one. They will need some real luck and get some late bloomers out of those drafts if they expect to be competing for a playoff spot in a couple years. Probably need some of their top prospects like McIssac and Breggen to be healthy to get in some real in ice development time as well.

The defense is the real problem. Seider and Hronek look like the real deal but they have DDK maybe Lindstrom as real players after that it's a lot of hope.

Goaltending for the future is non existent.

You also get a lot of Wings fans who think that going the FA route to fill a couple spots and picking up a top end coach and boom, instantly better team. Well its not the good old days anymore and the Wings cant offer more money than everyone else and they can't offer being one of the best teams on paper to a FA. So for now they are resigned to signing FAs like Nemeth and Filp.

Same thing for coaches. Sorry Wings fans top end coaches aren't looking at Detroit, the Wings have nothing to offer a coach currently. There's a process to be done. The Wings are probably looking at another half to season and a half of Blashill sucking behind the bench. Then Yzerman will probably pick a coach with some experience to develop the team at a point when he's not hoarding first round picks in the AHL.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

He projects safely as a 3rd line center, that's what it says (enough skill to POTENTIALLY become a 2nd line center). Let me go on to say that I absolutely love Veleno, but he has been underwhelming for being so hyped. He's your 3rd best prospect (after Zadina & Seider)

Defeated again.

I’m curious what victory you think you’ve achieved. You abandoned ship on your Zadina claims and have walked back your claims on Veleno from, “Best case scenario”, to, “Projects safely.” There’s a world of difference between those two statements.

 

[alasania94]

I’m curious what victory you think you’ve achieved. You abandoned ship on your Zadina claims and have walked back your claims on Veleno from, “Best case scenario”, to, “Projects safely.” There’s a world of difference between those two statements.

projects safely as a third line centre, that’s been my claim the whole time??? Also, lets let him play like a 1/2nd line C in the AHL first before we assume he can do it as a third. all of this further proves my point that DET is minimum 3 years away from being even slightly competitive. Mark my words, they’ll be garbage again the coming year and the next. in the third you’ll hopefully see some progress IF the players start panning out.

 

[lilidk]

If we talking about Veleno , he was getting much better lately, was one of the best player at u20. If we're talking about trade, I like it for Detroit. At 8 I'd get Lundell

 

[WingsMJN2965]

projects safely as a third line centre, that’s been my claim the whole time???

You can EXPECT AT BEST, and this is if they don't just bust entirely:
Veleno: top 9 Center

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I guess it's a matter of what competitive means. I don't think they're going to be near the bottom of the league again next year, and I certainly think they could be in the playoffs in the 21-22 season. Zadina was doing fine in a top 6 role this year before his injury, so I don't think that's a stretch. If we draft Stuzle/Byfield then Fabbri could easily fill the remaining top 6 winger role. If we draft Lafreniere then I could see Larkin playing on that line and signing a FA to fill the 2C spot. What was awful about your post?



Zadina has already shown he can be a top 6 forward. Rasmussen, Veleno, Bergrren and Hirose will all realistically be able to compete on either the 2nd/3rd line within 2 years, that's really not a stretch. Svechnikov and Smith are also likely going to be NHL players.


Again, out of all the criticism you can make about the Wings, this is not one of them. I also think your criticism of Veleno and Rasmussen make it pretty clear that you haven't done anything more stat watch and read 6 month old reviews. While there are legitimate concerns about Rasmussen's injuries, he was easily Grand Rapid's best forward when he was healthy and played very well in the 1C spot.

I was with you until Hirose. Dude is trash.

Berggren's gonna have to be able to stay healthy or he's gonna be the next Svechnikov.

 

[TS Quint]

I was with you until Hirose. Dude is trash.

Berggren's gonna have to be able to stay healthy or he's gonna be the next Svechnikov.

Svech will be worse just looking at the next 5/6 picks right after him a all quality NHL players.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Svech will be worse just looking at the next 5/6 picks right after him a all quality NHL players.

Svechnikov was a fine pick. Unfortunately he was hurt through a good portion of his developing years.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Wouldn't call it lucky? It's a deep top 10, so there is a reasonable chance that Rossi/Holtz/Perfetti/Raymond + Struble + a high 2nd end up being more valuable.

It absolutely would be lucky. Mantha is a 50-55 point forward with missing around a quarter of the season the last three years. Give him a little bit more health (which should really be as simple as "DON'T GET INTO NEEDLESS FIGHTS BECAUSE YOU'RE ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS ON THE ROSTER") and he's edging into 60-70 points. It's not "likely" or a "reasonable chance" that a bunch of magic beans add up to be more valuable. For that to happen, you'd need three players to hit. You can't rag on Detroit and say "Oh, but you expect X, Y, and Z to happen so you'll be competitive" when the crux of your argument for this weak package being more valuable is that they all hit.

 

[TS Quint]

Svechnikov was a fine pick. Unfortunately he was hurt through a good portion of his developing years.

Not really. It's only been the last 2. He had 3 years after his draft where he didn't show a whole lot of progress. It was a clearly a bad pick. To pretend it was anything but is disingenuous.

 

[alasania94]

It absolutely would be lucky. Mantha is a 50-55 point forward with missing around a quarter of the season the last three years. Give him a little bit more health (which should really be as simple as "DON'T GET INTO NEEDLESS FIGHTS BECAUSE YOU'RE ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS ON THE ROSTER") and he's edging into 60-70 points. It's not "likely" or a "reasonable chance" that a bunch of magic beans add up to be more valuable. For that to happen, you'd need three players to hit. You can't rag on Detroit and say "Oh, but you expect X, Y, and Z to happen so you'll be competitive" when the crux of your argument for this weak package being more valuable is that they all hit.

If the number 8 overall turns into a top 6 forward or

+ if Struble turns into a top 4 D

+ if the high 2nd rounder turns into anything valuable

You are completely discrediting them hitting based off of what? A prospect is NEVER a sure fire thing, but you see people making trades for futures all the time. Based off your wording above, no one should trade Zadina for Lafreniere because we're basing the trade off the assumption that Lafreniere "hits" lol

Like I don't even slightly understand the jist of your argument... "magic beans" when does it become something other than that? after you let the players develop. That's the basis of a trade for futures lol.

 

[Barnaby]

I don’t see Detroit competing for a playoff spot the next two seasons... maybe season 3 if their prospects pan out and they make a couple smart trades and/or UFA signings. If I’m Detroit then I take this trade and get someone who I think can be a core piece for a long time. Otherwise you use the next 2-3 years where Mantha doesn’t help you anyway then you have to decide whether to invest with him long term.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If the number 8 overall turns into a top 6 forward or

+ if Struble turns into a top 4 D

+ if the high 2nd rounder turns into anything valuable

You are completely discrediting them hitting based off of what? A prospect is NEVER a sure fire thing, but you see people making trades for futures all the time. Based off your wording above, no one should trade Zadina for Lafreniere because we're basing the trade off the assumption that Lafreniere "hits" lol

Like I don't even slightly understand the jist of your argument... "magic beans" when does it become something other than that? after you let the players develop. That's the basis of a trade for futures lol.

Right. And why exactly is Detroit trading away Mantha for futures right now?

1) They've traded just about everything else with ANY mote of value over the last three years for futures and have taken around 10-11 players a year in the draft.
2) Mantha is a top line forward and a high end talent on a team that lacks guys in those roles. Detroit has a bunch of guys who are in that middling range. Mantha is one of the few they have that actually has star potential and to be more than he is right now.
3) The pieces (8OA, Struble, 38OA) all have a higher likelihood of being exactly what Detroit already has in good depth pieces than they do of being a game changer. Guys who will play on the 2nd and 3rd forward lines or be very low-end top pairing guys or optimal second pairing guys. For those pieces to become more valuable than Anthony Mantha and worthwhile for Detroit... it couldn't only be in aggregate. It couldn't be that oh, you got 3 pieces for your 1. Detroit doesn't need quantity, they need quality.

I'm completely discrediting your offer because throwing Anthony Mantha who is one of the few current high end pieces Detroit has back into the ether holds no point to me.

When I call them scraps, I'm not necessarily meaning that Struble is worthless or that having 8OA wouldn't be nice. But right now, there is no need for Detroit to trade Mantha. He is not in a place to absolutely break the bank with his UFA extension given that Larkin is a better player and he signed 5x6.1 and Mantha keeps getting himself hurt in various ways with some reckless play. He is one of the few high end talents Detroit has. If they are trading away Mantha who they have a good amount of time put in developing and a reasonable expectation that he'll sign for a not crazy amount the return has to be astronomical and/or a sure thing. Not futures and hopes.

Kudos I guess for being willing to include the 8OA in an HFBoards proposal. However, given the context of the player and the roster he's on, this is not a good trade offer for what Detroit needs. You're asking them to take on a lot of questions for one of the few guys on their roster that doesn't really have many once a coach gets in his ear to tell him not to try to tackle Jake Muzzin after the play.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don’t see Detroit competing for a playoff spot the next two seasons... maybe season 3 if their prospects pan out and they make a couple smart trades and/or UFA signings. If I’m Detroit then I take this trade and get someone who I think can be a core piece for a long time. Otherwise you use the next 2-3 years where Mantha doesn’t help you anyway then you have to decide whether to invest with him long term.

MANTHA is a core piece for a long time. What are you on about? He's 25 right now meaning he'll be 29 and probably on a reasonable extension in 4 years when you all think that Detroit will be competing again. I mean, it is entirely feasible that Mantha has another decade of hockey in him and another 7 years of very high end play.

 

[alasania94]

Right. And why exactly is Detroit trading away Mantha for futures right now?

1) They've traded just about everything else with ANY mote of value over the last three years for futures and have taken around 10-11 players a year in the draft.
2) Mantha is a top line forward and a high end talent on a team that lacks guys in those roles. Detroit has a bunch of guys who are in that middling range. Mantha is one of the few they have that actually has star potential and to be more than he is right now.
3) The pieces (8OA, Struble, 38OA) all have a higher likelihood of being exactly what Detroit already has in good depth pieces than they do of being a game changer. Guys who will play on the 2nd and 3rd forward lines or be very low-end top pairing guys or optimal second pairing guys. For those pieces to become more valuable than Anthony Mantha and worthwhile for Detroit... it couldn't only be in aggregate. It couldn't be that oh, you got 3 pieces for your 1. Detroit doesn't need quantity, they need quality.

I'm completely discrediting your offer because throwing Anthony Mantha who is one of the few current high end pieces Detroit has back into the ether holds no point to me.

When I call them scraps, I'm not necessarily meaning that Struble is worthless or that having 8OA wouldn't be nice. But right now, there is no need for Detroit to trade Mantha. He is not in a place to absolutely break the bank with his UFA extension given that Larkin is a better player and he signed 5x6.1 and Mantha keeps getting himself hurt in various ways with some reckless play. He is one of the few high end talents Detroit has. If they are trading away Mantha who they have a good amount of time put in developing and a reasonable expectation that he'll sign for a not crazy amount the return has to be astronomical and/or a sure thing. Not futures and hopes.

Kudos I guess for being willing to include the 8OA in an HFBoards proposal. However, given the context of the player and the roster he's on, this is not a good trade offer for what Detroit needs. You're asking them to take on a lot of questions for one of the few guys on their roster that doesn't really have many once a coach gets in his ear to tell him not to try to tackle Jake Muzzin after the play.

This was well explained and i understand what your thought process is. Thanks for writing it out. I legit thought you were implying that anything that isn't currently playing in the NHL is "magic beans" lol

 

[Debrincat93]

get back to me on this in a year. if he's hurt again, id be fully willing to move him for youth. cant do it right now, though.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Scoring help now? Detroit is by far the worst team in the league and atleast 3-4 years away from being competitive. Even their prospect pool isn't anything impressive in terms of top 6 forwards and top 4 D. If they get lucky they come away with the top pick (Lafreniere) but even then, this team is going nowhere with their current roster.

We’ve seen how bad it is for development playing for perennial bottom dwellers (Florida/Edmonton/Florida). Why keep trading away our prime scoring forwards for more draft picks and waste/ruin the development of Larkin/Hronek/Zadina/Seider by having them be slaughtered every night?

Mantha, if healthy, is a 30G/70pt guy and only 25 years old. The only reason to trade a guy like that away for a draft pick you HOPE becomes that good is if you have Cap issues. Detroit does not have that issue at all.

No reason for Detroit to do this at all.

 

[nbwingsfan]

That is by no means a competitive team LOL. Lets break it down per player:

Mantha/Larkin/Bertuzzi - Respectable 1st line. Definitely nowhere near what you want as your first line on a contender, not a single one of them has or projects as a PPG type player and lack "elite" factor.
rest of the team has Fabbri as a plug in top 6 option that works. Literally the rest of your forward group is awful.

You can EXPECT AT BEST, and this is if they don't just bust entirely:

Zadina: turn into a top 6 winger
Seider: top 2 D
Rasmussen: top 9 winger
Veleno: top 9 Center
McIsaac: top 4 D

Plus your lottery pick which has a 16% chance of being #1.

You have absolutely no depth on this team, are banking on 3-4 prospects to reach their ceilings (that are nowhere near elite) and you have the worst D in the league. Team is FAR from contending. Give me a break lol.

Cool, we’re not looking to contend next season. Every team still needs good quality vets on their team.

Also hilarious that all of a sudden Zadina doesn’t have top like potential despite that being his exact scouting report. Hilarious Rasmussen and Veleno have no shot of being top 6 players either despite once again, being their exact scouting reports when drafted.

 

[alasania94]

We’ve seen how bad it is for development playing for perennial bottom dwellers (Florida/Edmonton/Florida). Why keep trading away our prime scoring forwards for more draft picks and waste/ruin the development of Larkin/Hronek/Zadina/Seider by having them be slaughtered every night?

Mantha, if healthy, is a 30G/70pt guy and only 25 years old. The only reason to trade a guy like that away for a draft pick you HOPE becomes that good is if you have Cap issues. Detroit does not have that issue at all.

No reason for Detroit to do this at all.

His career average (games he's played) is 26 goals and 27 assists. Where are you pulling your 30g 40 assists average out of? He was on pace for that for the first time in his career this season lol.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Zadina is the safest of the bunch and hasn't done anything to warrant being projected higher than a top 6 winger? (which in it's own is a great scenario if he pans out? He could also be a top line winger, let's give you that)

Veleno just put up 0.43 ppg in the AHL as a 20 year old after playing 5 seasons in the OHL. That is less production than Seider that is 1 year younger and a defensemen lol...Top 9 forward is VERY reasonable?

Rasmussen, who is a year older than veleno, played an entire NHL season, got sent back down to the AHL where he was projected to end the season with 50 points over an 82 game schedule. in the AHL. top 9 forward? ONCE AGAIN VERY REASONABLE. lol

How about you back up your statements with facts or stats instead of laughing emoji's???

How can someone possibly be so uninformed? Wow.

Let’s start with how shockingly wrong you were on Veleno. He played in the QMJHL not the OHL. He played 4 seasons and not 5. He played in the AHL at 19, when he should have been still in Junior because he had exceptional status. He was one of the youngest players in the league and had a great WJC. At 18 in Junior he scored over 100pts.

Now let’s go on to how wrong you were with Rasmussen. He played in the NHL last season because they thought he was too good for Junior but wasn’t allowed to play in the AHL (I’m assuming based on all your posts you didn’t know about the eligibility rules of the AHL). He was sent to the AHL at 20 years old when he was allowed to play in the league now. You know who else scored at around a 50pt pace in the AHL at 20? DeBrusk, Kadri, Tatar, Gallagher, Stone, etc. They all ended up better than average top 9 forwards, didn’t they?

Why do you bother posting if you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about?

 

[alasania94]

Cool, we’re not looking to contend next season. Every team still needs good quality vets on their team.

Also hilarious that all of a sudden Zadina doesn’t have top like potential despite that being his exact scouting report. Hilarious Rasmussen and Veleno have no shot of being top 6 players either despite once again, being their exact scouting reports when drafted.

When they were drafted vs now. Mittlestadt was projected as a first line center when drafted. Now they're settling for a 2/3C at best. When players don't progress the way they're supposed to, their draft stock falls. Rasmussen was a terrible reach at #9 as evidenced by atleast 10 players picked after him already having their stock rise above his. see: Vilardi, Necas, Suzuki, Brannstrom, Valimaki, Liljegren, Norris, Thomas, Yamamoto, Jokiharji all in the first round exclusively.

As for Veleno, he was drafter at 30th for a reason. He was seen as a reliable 3C. Which he has only proven with his consistent, offensively underwhelming production since being drafted.

 

[nbwingsfan]

When they were drafted vs now. Mittlestadt was projected as a first line center when drafted. Now they're settling for a 2/3C at best. When players don't progress the way they're supposed to, their draft stock falls. Rasmussen was a terrible reach at #9 as evidenced by atleast 10 players picked after him already having their stock rise above his. see: Vilardi, Necas, Suzuki, Brannstrom, Valimaki, Liljegren, Norris, Thomas, Yamamoto, Jokiharji all in the first round exclusively.

As for Veleno, he was drafter at 30th for a reason. He was seen as a reliable 3C. Which he has only proven with his consistent, offensively underwhelming production since being drafted.

In his D+1 he scored 104points l, 3rd in league scoring, despite only being 18 years old. This is consistent underwhelming production? You literally have no idea what you’re talking about

Why are you still here?

 

[alasania94]

In his D+1 he scored 104points l, 3rd in league scoring, despite only being 18 years old. This is consistent underwhelming production? You literally have no idea what you’re talking about

Why are you still here?

a 1.67 PPG in your D+1 is not impressive at all LMAO It's rather normal production. Look at all the draft eligible (D) players playing in the Q this year that have similar PPG's:

Kohvanov: Same age as Veleno, better PPG
Sokolov: same age as Veleno, better PPG
Zavgorodny: Younger than Veleno, better PPG
Samuel Poulin: full year younger than veleno, drafted 21st in 2019
Bourque: Similar PPG, younger by 1.5 years
Mercer: Similar PPG, younger by 1.5 years

What do all these prospects have in common? They're all projected as middle 6 players and have outperformed veleno.

Go to bed.