OT: Montreal getting a new /old ball park for $750 Million maybe 1 Billion

OpenIceHit

Registered User
Oct 3, 2006
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Toronto
Keep the tower. Tare down the bowl. Build a green park that matches with Parc Maisonneuve North of Sherbrooke.
 

donghabs98

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Oct 14, 2010
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17,190
Halifax
Lol. People drive 3-4 hours to see games. Heck, I'm going to a Red Sox games in Boston in a month.

People drive 75+ minutes from the suburbs to go work in Montreal.

This is BS, if people wanted to go see baseball, they would. 45 mins is nothing.
Your first point is valid in the sense it depends on the circumstance. I doubt though anyone is driving hours on a weeknight consistently for any sports game.


But comparing people going to work doesnt apply here. First, you're obligated to go and get compensated. Second, the resistance to return to office shows that people aren't too pleased at the idea of going into work if they dont have to.

The reality is, if the location is not great like the Big O, then a team needs to work much harder to bring people out. If you're not winning then its going to be really tough to get anyone to show. Heck the Tampa Bay Rays are a great team and they struggle to bring people to games.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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Quebec City, Canada
Yeah, saying Montrealers dont care about baseball and then pointing to attendence of the Expos towards the end is a weak argument because it ignores the context behind what happened. Expos basically had no owner after Bronfman, even when the Expos had a potential contender, its ownership consortium was so cheap, they wouldnt spend any money to keep a potential world series winning core around for even 1 more year.
When you have an ownership group who wont invest in the team, a stadium far away and crumbling and a losing team where even if you develop stars, they wont be retained, who would show up to a game?
To get high traffic, you need convenience (downtown location where you can easily get walk ins or people looking for an evening activity), a good atmosphere and committed ownership. Expos didnt have that and the Oakland Athletics currently don't either. Als fans are still there (evidenced by the attendance in their protest game), but they lack reasons to go.
I started watching baseball only at the beginning of the 90ies and back then the Expos always had one of the 3 lowest payrolls in the league. Even in 94 i think the had the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. Before the lockout people were starting to go back to the games. The payroll was often like 4-5 times lower than the top teams and they would let good players walk all the time. 94 was the final straw. There was no recovery from that.
 

donghabs98

Moderator
Oct 14, 2010
32,863
17,190
Halifax
I started watching baseball only at the beginning of the 90ies and back then the Expos always had one of the 3 lowest payrolls in the league. Even in 94 i think the had the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. Before the lockout people were starting to go back to the games. The payroll was often like 4-5 times lower than the top teams and they would let good players walk all the time. 94 was the final straw. There was no recovery from that.
Similar to the A's, its unreasonable to expect fans to come to games in large numbers if ownership is not showing any commitment to winning and the reality is, after Bronfman, the Expos never had a ownership group winning to invest in the team. Now there's many factors that play into that but that's what happened. Add that in with the location which makes a big difference (as shown by the Rays) and the reasons for the demise of the Expos is clear. People forget, the Jays were also struggling in the late 90s/2000s too. But in that case, they found a ownership group that would invest and had a downtown stadium.

Now, the state of interest in baseball in Quebec/Montreal is a seperate discussion and is one I can't comment on as I dont know. But based on other examples, I'm sure a Expos team with a ownership group that invests and a stadium downtown will give the team a good foundation.
 
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BallardEra

Leafs&Caps Since 1982™
Dec 26, 2017
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I started watching baseball only at the beginning of the 90ies and back then the Expos always had one of the 3 lowest payrolls in the league. Even in 94 i think the had the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. Before the lockout people were starting to go back to the games. The payroll was often like 4-5 times lower than the top teams and they would let good players walk all the time. 94 was the final straw. There was no recovery from that.

Insane if you go back and look at the pipeline of talent that came through the Expos. Truly a shame that they couldn't compete financially with the big fish.
 

Le Tricolore

Boo! BOOOO!
Aug 3, 2005
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Montreal
Baseball is dead in this province. But the NFL is still pretty popular.
The NFL is popular, but it won't ever have a team in Montreal. Baseball still has a shot (in theory) in Montreal. It isn't super popular now, but that's also because there hasn't been a team in nearly 20 years. I'm sure that would change if people had a team to cheer for. I don't expect it to happen any time soon, if at all, though.
 

salbutera

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Sep 10, 2019
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Similar to the A's, its unreasonable to expect fans to come to games in large numbers if ownership is not showing any commitment to winning and the reality is, after Bronfman, the Expos never had a ownership group winning to invest in the team. Now there's many factors that play into that but that's what happened. Add that in with the location which makes a big difference (as shown by the Rays) and the reasons for the demise of the Expos is clear. People forget, the Jays were also struggling in the late 90s/2000s too. But in that case, they found a ownership group that would invest and had a downtown stadium.

Now, the state of interest in baseball in Quebec/Montreal is a seperate discussion and is one I can't comment on as I dont know. But based on other examples, I'm sure an Expos team with an ownership group that invests and a stadium downtown will give the team a good foundation.
So what was the excuse for the last 8-years of Bronfman’s ownership tenure? Charlie ALWAYS invested in the team, and they WERE competitive, yet attendance was bottom tier from 1984-1990.

Oh yeah I remember, the excuse was hockey playoffs were on in April, May & June….then they never won it all…. just to add to the slew of excuses.

Never a shortage of excuses when it came to Expos baseball…
 
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LaP

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So why was the excuse for the last 8-years of Bronfman’s ownership tenure? Charlie ALWAYS invested in the team, and they WERE competitive, yet attendance was bottom tier from 1984-1990.
Oh yeah I remember, the excuse was hockey playoffs were on in April, May & June….then they never won it all…. just to add to the slew of excuses.
It's hard to follow you honestly. So if i follow you all teams behind the expos in attendance from 84 to 90 should be out of the MLB because those are not baseball cities. This includes regularly Houston, Braves, Texas, Seattles, Indians.

MLB back then was a flawed league. 90% of the teams were out of the playoffs by July. From 84 to 93 the Expos were in the race twice only despite playing for above 500 multiple years. The CF fans mourned like a bunch of babies for 10 years missing the playoffs in 2018-2019 with 96 points and a record of 44-38. In the MLB back in the 80ies you were not making the playoffs with such a record. YOu were likely out of the race by July. Missing the playoffs while playing for 536 was a yearly thing in the MLB for many teams back then.

The MLB was a 4-5 teams affair and all the other teams were extras like in movies. Some cities were fine with it others not really. Many teams with attendance similar to expos survived because they had better owners and better facilities not because they were better baseball cities. I'm really not sure why people keep arguing the OS is a great baseball stadium. It almost feels insanity to me to even argue the OS is a great stadium or that a bad stadium wont impact a team which is there as an extras with no chances to win.
 

LaP

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Also saying the Expos were competitive from 84 to 90 is not really true :

84 : 18 games away from a playoffs spot likely out of the race after 1 month
85 : 16.5 games away from a playoffs spot likely out by july
86 : 29.5 games away from a playoffs spot likely out after 1 month.
87 : 4 games away from a playoffs spot but with two teams in from of them. In the race until the end.
88 : 20 games away from a playoffs spot. Likely out after 1 month.
89 : 12 games away from a playoffs spot with 3 teams in from of them likely out somewhere in august for the most optimistic..
90 : 10 games away with two teams in front. Sort of competitive until the last month or so.
91 : 26.5 games away from a playoffs spot.
92 : 9 games away
93 : 3 games away in the race for sure until the end.
94 : first in MLB 6 games in front of the Braves sure to make the playoffs until lockout how convenient for the MLB ...

Until 94 that's not what i'd call supoer competitive. Missed by a huge margin more often than they were in the race. Now yeah it's by design that's how the MLB was even good non rich teams were sure to not make the playoffs despite playing for 530-550. Expos missed the playoffs in 93 while playing for 580. Imagine the CH missing while paying for 580 the fans would burn the city and hang Bettman and would put him in the guillotine after. Montreal was not the biggest baseball city but it was not any better or worse than the other teams in the bottom tier. Most of those are still in the MLB.
 

Kimota

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The NFL is popular, but it won't ever have a team in Montreal. Baseball still has a shot (in theory) in Montreal. It isn't super popular now, but that's also because there hasn't been a team in nearly 20 years. I'm sure that would change if people had a team to cheer for. I don't expect it to happen any time soon, if at all, though.

But even before the Expos came in, baseball was big in this province, it was part of our culture, everybody was playing it, son, fathers, cousins, uncles, friends. There were countless baseball leagues. It's not in our culture anymore. It started to dimish in the 80s in fact when kids started to play soccer more than baseball. Now it practically does not exist.

About the NFL, never say never. It would be a good project to contemplate. People from all over would come to watch the games. And there's not a lot of games to boot so there's less of a comittment fan-wise.
 

Kimota

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Nov 4, 2005
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So what was the excuse for the last 8-years of Bronfman’s ownership tenure? Charlie ALWAYS invested in the team, and they WERE competitive, yet attendance was bottom tier from 1984-1990.

Oh yeah I remember, the excuse was hockey playoffs were on in April, May & June….then they never won it all…. just to add to the slew of excuses.

Never a shortage of excuses when it came to Expos baseball…

I think trading Gary Carter was a big blow and a lot of fans viewed it as a slap in the face and vowed to never return.
 

LaP

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But even before the Expos came in, baseball was big in this province, it was part of our culture, everybody was playing it, son, fathers, cousins, uncles, friends. There were countless baseball leagues. It's not in our culture anymore. It started to dimish in the 80s in fact when kids started to play soccer more than baseball. Now it practically does not exist.
About the NFL, never say never. It would be a good project to contemplate. People from all over would come to watch the games. And there's not a lot of games to boot so there's less of a comittment fan-wise.
It's true that the baseball culture doesn't exist in Quebec anymore. Not sure if it was fading in the 80ies though i was too young. But i was a teenager in the early 90ies and people were still playing baseball a lot. There was a junior game every night at the public park near my home and there was always kids playing baseball on it almost every day in the summer when there was no game. Now most public park are gone and the few ones remaining there's never anybody on it. I'd say it really started to fade in a significant way in the middle of the 90ies.
 
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Tyson

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Mar 1, 2007
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Growing up minutes from Parc Jarry I was so disappointed to see the Expos become a team that couldn't compete and ultimately moved.
No one was more fired up than me in 1994, August with an 8 game lead over Atlanta, around 34 games over .500 and BAM! A walk out! Never watched MLB again.
 
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Le Tricolore

Boo! BOOOO!
Aug 3, 2005
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But even before the Expos came in, baseball was big in this province, it was part of our culture, everybody was playing it, son, fathers, cousins, uncles, friends. There were countless baseball leagues. It's not in our culture anymore. It started to dimish in the 80s in fact when kids started to play soccer more than baseball. Now it practically does not exist.

About the NFL, never say never. It would be a good project to contemplate. People from all over would come to watch the games. And there's not a lot of games to boot so there's less of a comittment fan-wise.
Sure, but then baseball came here, the team was beloved and then had owners who didn't want to spend money to support the team, especially one in a shitty stadium. People cared less and less about the sport. I have no doubt that a team would rejuvenate the province's love for baseball, but as I said, I doubt anything will be happening any time soon. Our chance was a few years ago, but we couldn't get a stadium and Tampa / Oakland were screwing with their own fans. Oakland are now moving to Las Vegas, and Tampa, who knows... but without a stadium, we have no chance. The split season thing was always a horrible idea, too.

I just don't think the NFL will ever have a team in Canada, and if they do, I'd imagine Toronto is really the only place they'd consider. I love the NFL, and would love to be able to get annoyed at the Jets in person more easily, but I honestly don't see any possible scenario where it happens.
 
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Kaiden Ghoul

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Jan 19, 2020
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Man, growing up in Toronto I always loved the Expos and wish Montreal still had them there.

I really wanted to see them win the WS in 1994 before they shut that season down.

Nothing but love from me.

That Joe Carter homerun, the city must has been wild lol
 

salbutera

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Sep 10, 2019
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Also saying the Expos were competitive from 84 to 90 is not really true :

84 : 18 games away from a playoffs spot likely out of the race after 1 month
85 : 16.5 games away from a playoffs spot likely out by july
86 : 29.5 games away from a playoffs spot likely out after 1 month.
87 : 4 games away from a playoffs spot but with two teams in from of them. In the race until the end.
88 : 20 games away from a playoffs spot. Likely out after 1 month.
89 : 12 games away from a playoffs spot with 3 teams in from of them likely out somewhere in august for the most optimistic..
90 : 10 games away with two teams in front. Sort of competitive until the last month or so.
91 : 26.5 games away from a playoffs spot.
92 : 9 games away
93 : 3 games away in the race for sure until the end.
94 : first in MLB 6 games in front of the Braves sure to make the playoffs until lockout how convenient for the MLB ...

Until 94 that's not what i'd call supoer competitive. Missed by a huge margin more often than they were in the race. Now yeah it's by design that's how the MLB was even good non rich teams were sure to not make the playoffs despite playing for 530-550. Expos missed the playoffs in 93 while playing for 580. Imagine the CH missing while paying for 580 the fans would burn the city and hang Bettman and would put him in the guillotine after. Montreal was not the biggest baseball city but it was not any better or worse than the other teams in the bottom tier. Most of those are still in the MLB.
1984 - Expos started fading in Sept, due to Bill Virdon’s mismanagement
1985 - Cards ran away with it but Expos hung in there till late Aug
1986 - Mets ran away w division from start Expos managed to stay in it till All Star break
1987 - Expos & STL into late Sept, rainouts at Big Owe killed them w double headers late in the season
1988 - terrible season across National League, low run scoring all around, in it till late Aug
1989 - Mark Langston year, in 1st place till mid-Aug double header w Mets, then Sept collapse
1990 - Ivan Calderon carried the team stayed in it till Sept
1991 - disaster all around, including chunk of Big Owe falling cancelling all home games from Aug on, highlight being late season 1-hitter by Mark Gardner on a Fri night @ Dodgers stadium and the Sun perfect game by Dennis Martinez

So yes the Expos were very competitive the last 10-years of Bronfman’s ownership. Including Expos being the 3rd winningest MLB franchise for the 1980s decade and attendance being bottom tier over the decade dropping off the map post-1983 season
 

dinodebino

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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So what was the excuse for the last 8-years of Bronfman’s ownership tenure? Charlie ALWAYS invested in the team, and they WERE competitive, yet attendance was bottom tier from 1984-1990.

Oh yeah I remember, the excuse was hockey playoffs were on in April, May & June….then they never won it all…. just to add to the slew of excuses.

Never a shortage of excuses when it came to Expos baseball…
yup.
 

Kimota

ROY DU NORD!!!
Nov 4, 2005
39,376
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Les Plaines D'Abraham
Sure, but then baseball came here, the team was beloved and then had owners who didn't want to spend money to support the team, especially one in a shitty stadium. People cared less and less about the sport. I have no doubt that a team would rejuvenate the province's love for baseball, but as I said, I doubt anything will be happening any time soon. Our chance was a few years ago, but we couldn't get a stadium and Tampa / Oakland were screwing with their own fans. Oakland are now moving to Las Vegas, and Tampa, who knows... but without a stadium, we have no chance. The split season thing was always a horrible idea, too.

I just don't think the NFL will ever have a team in Canada, and if they do, I'd imagine Toronto is really the only place they'd consider. I love the NFL, and would love to be able to get annoyed at the Jets in person more easily, but I honestly don't see any possible scenario where it happens.

I don't think the NFL would be necesserally opposed to a team in Canada, though. These guys are ruthless but it also make them having no prejudice, all they think about is money. And the owners are kings. St Louis lost their team cause the owner wanted a team in LA. And they had no oppositions. If someone with money would be interested in bringing a team here and that person would be willing to pay the cost for a franchise, I don't think they would be opposed to it? Also the NFL makes so much money that they could thrive anywhere. If it exist in Greenbay, they can exist in Montreal.

I know it seems crazy but why not.
 
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salbutera

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Sep 10, 2019
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It's hard to follow you honestly. So if i follow you all teams behind the expos in attendance from 84 to 90 should be out of the MLB because those are not baseball cities. This includes regularly Houston, Braves, Texas, Seattles, Indians.

MLB back then was a flawed league. 90% of the teams were out of the playoffs by July. From 84 to 93 the Expos were in the race twice only despite playing for above 500 multiple years. The CF fans mourned like a bunch of babies for 10 years missing the playoffs in 2018-2019 with 96 points and a record of 44-38. In the MLB back in the 80ies you were not making the playoffs with such a record. YOu were likely out of the race by July. Missing the playoffs while playing for 536 was a yearly thing in the MLB for many teams back then.

The MLB was a 4-5 teams affair and all the other teams were extras like in movies. Some cities were fine with it others not really. Many teams with attendance similar to expos survived because they had better owners and better facilities not because they were better baseball cities. I'm really not sure why people keep arguing the OS is a great baseball stadium. It almost feels insanity to me to even argue the OS is a great stadium or that a bad stadium wont impact a team which is there as an extras with no chances to win.
That’s not accurate, in the 80s -

- KC & Oak made it to 2-World Series winning 1
- Minny, Baltimore, Cincinnati all made it to WS, with former 2-winning. Pit was quite competitive in the early & late 80s

It was the large cable TV contracts for major markets in the 90s that created the disparity, which is why Bronfman sold the team since Expos were last in the league in TV + Radio revenue with no future hope, Charlie knew they would have no chance of competing without payroll
 
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George Lebay

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Feb 17, 2012
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Laval
Every damn time it comes to baseball in Montreal, you have someone saying soccer has replaced baseball in Montreal. There is a small proportion of Montrealers who are interested in it, but it remains very marginal. Soccer has never replaced baseball in Quebec's culture. It never will. No one is interested in soccer in this province. When the Impact or whatever you call it makes the playoffs, no one cares. No one is able to name a single player from this team. When a player is traded, nobody cares. Give me a f***ing break ..
 
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