McDavid or Matthews

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't understand the debate here. It's not like Matthews was better than McDavid while he was sick and Oilers fans are making excuses. He was still better than Matthews, producing at about a 98 point pace and top 10 in scoring.

He's been healthy for a week and he's now 3rd in scoring.

So what are Leafs fans trying to accomplish by downplaying his illness?

I would surmise it is yet another grasp to try to bring down McDavid to Matthews level, since the recent 2nd assists argument(lol McDavid had the most 1st assists last season so that made a lot of sense) was summarily dismissed by posters here. They will keep trying to bring down McDavid, since there is no reasonable argument in elevating Matthews to McDavid's level. It's amusing though reading through this thread. I recommend it for it's comedic wealth.

 

[Soundwave]

Matthews is a good player, but it's pretty clear to me they are a decent/good team without him. They are what 5-1 without him?

Take McDavid off the Oilers and there's no question they are the worst team in the league probably.

I think actually the Leafs were never *that* bad. They were only a few years removed from a playoff berth in which they almost went to the 2nd round before their "rebuild". They were an average team that quit on their coach/organization for a couple of years and got hit with a lot of injuries.

Oilers/Coyotes/Sabres are legit poor teams that rely much more on their top players because beyond that they crater pretty fast.

 

[nabob]

I get it. Because you have a buddy on the East coast you can tell that a person on television is the exact same height and weight as him. Cool story. That's some talent.

 

[nabob]

well i like how they list vomiting as an illness.

CM: "i don't feel so hot doc"

DOC: "oh yeah, what are your symptoms"

CM: "vomiting"

DOC: "hmmmm, sounds like you have vomiting"

He probably just "wasn't feeling well" just like Marner wasn't really sick when he had mono according to you.

 

[nabob]

Lol, you realize a lot of that weight is in his legs anyway, right?

Most guys who brag on the internet about how tough and jacked they are have chicken legs.

 

[Apotheosis]

This was a decent debate when they were both healthy. But with the Oilers playing bad, Matthews injured and both teams looking boring, it's boring to even entertain this discussion right now. Matthews probably won't play another game until at least the end of the month. McDavid is surging and good on him.

 

[bucks_oil]

I'll ignore the petty downplaying of Matthews passing.

That has literally nothing to what the point was. Matthews has the exact same effect if you took his last year stats and split them at say 17 minutes and 30 seconds (he averaged 17.03 minutes in wins, and 18.11). I don't get how saying splitting the ice-time measurment at 21 is riddled with score effects and coaching bias that makes it pretty pointless for measuring efficiency for a player. Leafs don't win more because Matthews plays less, they are probably put in the position to win earlier in the game so they don't rely on him as much. How about Crosby. Last year he averaged 19.11 minutes a game in wins, but had a PPG of 1.53. In loses, he averaged 20.40 but averaged only .61 PPG.

How many times do I have to say, this isn't a shot at McDavid. This is a simple fact of hockey statistics among star players. Its an issue with trying to discount efficiency measures by using a cut off on an individual player, which would be riddled with score effects.

You should ignore the "petty Matthews passing" comment because there wasn't one. I was making the point that the typical playmaker is more likely to wrack up secondary assists than a shooter

1) I've now read back to the root. I agree, "efficiency" arguments are silly due to utilization.
2) It is probably also true that a [random elite] playmaker is more likely to contribute to more goals than a [random elite] shooter. Quite simply because they will have more opportunity to get a touch on the puck (and contribute to the final outcome)... hence my statement: they make their teammates better. This was NOT a slag at Matthews... it was my rejection of "2nd assists don't matter".

 

[93LEAFS]

You should ignore the "petty Matthews passing" comment because there wasn't one. I was making the point that the typical playmaker is more likely to wrack up secondary assists than a shooter

1) I've now read back to the root. I agree, "efficiency" arguments are silly due to utilization.
2) It is probably also true that a [random elite] playmaker is more likely to contribute to more goals than a [random elite] shooter. Quite simply because they will have more opportunity to get a touch on the puck (and contribute to the final outcome)... hence my statement: they make their teammates better. This was NOT a slag at Matthews... it was my rejection of "2nd assists don't matter".

They matter but not as much as primary points, but I don't want to go down that again. But I will ask this. Do you consider Taylor Hall an elite playmaker? or more of a drive and shoot type of player. I ask this because in 2012/13 he led the league in secondary assists per 60 at 5v5. Since then over full seasons, he has finished. These are for forwards only and who played over 1000 minutes.

2014/15: Wouldn’t Qualify played less than 1000 minutes, but would be tied for 41st (.44)
2015/16: 92nd (.29)
2016/17: 76th (.38)

 

[McFlyingV]

headache? i'm surprised they didn't list "the sniffles"

well i like how they list vomiting as an illness.

CM: "i don't feel so hot doc"

DOC: "oh yeah, what are your symptoms"

CM: "vomiting"

DOC: "hmmmm, sounds like you have vomiting"

I already posted a scientific resource that showed the effects of a viral infection and fever on an athlete, both physically and mentally. You're not as smart as you think you are, quite the opposite really. Hilarious that you think vomiting is so minor for a professional athlete. You clearly don't understand human physiology at even a 10th grade level.

Here it is again if you want to pretend you're smarter than current medical research.

Infections increase the risk of illness and injury in the exercising athlete. Fever impairs coordination, concentration, muscle strength, and aerobic power (31). It also hinders endurance and fluid and temperature regulation. Viral illnesses contribute to tissue wasting, muscle catabolism, and negative nitrogen balance (31). Pain, discomfort, or other symptoms of infection can be distracting during play and competition.

Re: Mononucleosis

According to the consensus statement of the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine, athletes should avoid all exercise for the first 21 d after the onset of illness (41). After that time, they can begin slowly to resume their activities, starting with walking and progressing not more than 10% per week in duration or intensity. Full recovery usually takes 2 to 3 months but can take longer in select cases.

Infectious Disease in Athletes : Current Sports Medicine Reports

 

[McFlyingV]

No doubt mcdavid was really sick and lost significant weight but does anyone really believe he is 192lbs. IMO no way you see that guy in a suit he is super skinny. I bet he weighs no more than low 180s. It's not like he's super tall either his combine height was like 6'0 3/4 I believe. I'm 5'9 3/4 185lbs athletic and sub 15% bodyfat and I look massive compared to him I have a lot of athletic buddies who are his height and weight around 190-195 and look way bigger than him. I wish teams would put legit weights and heights on guys. Most NHL players are a lot smaller than most would believe. All about speed these days. I'm a bit of a fitness freak and trying to build my body into a more leaner nhl type body for my own hockey and it would sure be nice to know how big these guys are. But no one is ever going to convince me that mcdavid is actually 192lbs lol not even close

Of course you look massive you're a shrimp compared to him. Do you know how much easier it is to make a sub 5'10 frame look filled out compared to a 6'1 frame? You probably go to the gym and do some routine performing exercises that are completely useless or have very little carry over for hockey. McDavid is training for sports performance not appearance, and yes his legs are massive. I can guarantee his entire lower half is bigger than yours. There's a huge difference in body composition between someone who trains sport specific and someone who's just a regular active individual.

 

[Dondini]

Of course you look massive you're a shrimp compared to him. Do you know how much easier it is to make a sub 5'10 frame look filled out compared to a 6'1 frame? You probably go to the gym and do some routine performing exercises that are completely useless or have very little carry over for hockey. McDavid is training for sports performance not appearance, and yes his legs are massive. I can guarantee his entire lower half is bigger than yours. There's a huge difference in body composition between someone who trains sport specific and someone who's just a regular active individual.

Firstly I can gurantee you it's not.

Secondly don't assume how I train I have been training sport specific my whole life.

Thirdly I don't know why everyone is getting so upset by me calling him skinny. It wasn't meant as an insult. I believe hockey players going forward should have a more slender body type. Speed kills in this game. He's one of my fav players. I'm just doubting his 192lb listing. I have seen a lot of hockey players including young players bulk up to much and it hurt their game. I just wish nhl put actually heights and weights. My post was never meant to be an insult.

Lol at everyone who just automatically believes everything they see. Ya teams have never inflated a players size ever in any league. Not once. Give me a break

 

[Dondini]

Firstly I can gurantee you it's not.

Secondly don't assume how I train I have been training sport specific my whole life. Been playing hockey my whole life and still play contact hockey at age 30.

Thirdly I don't know why everyone is getting so upset by me calling him skinny. It wasn't meant as an insult. I believe hockey players going forward should have a more slender body type. Speed kills in this game. He's one of my fav players. I'm just doubting his 192lb listing. I have seen a lot of hockey players including young players bulk up to much and it hurt their game. I just wish nhl put actually heights and weights. My post was never meant to be an insult.

Lol at everyone who just automatically believes everything they see. Ya teams have never inflated a players size ever in any league. Not once. Give me a break

 

[ColbyChaos]

Firstly I can gurantee you it's not.

Secondly don't assume how I train I have been training sport specific my whole life.

Thirdly I don't know why everyone is getting so upset by me calling him skinny. It wasn't meant as an insult. I believe hockey players going forward should have a more slender body type. Speed kills in this game. He's one of my fav players. I'm just doubting his 192lb listing. I have seen a lot of hockey players including young players bulk up to much and it hurt their game. I just wish nhl put actually heights and weights. My post was never meant to be an insult.

Lol at everyone who just automatically believes everything they see. Ya teams have never inflated a players size ever in any league. Not once. Give me a break

It really is easier to get bigger at 5'10 than say 6'4 and above, just as its easier for people with average height to get fat faster than someone who is tall. Taller you are the mass you need. There is a 15lb gap between lucic and Chara but if you look at them off the ice Lucic looks very built while Chara is extremely lanky in comparison

 

[Snippit]

This was a decent debate when they were both healthy. But with the Oilers playing bad, Matthews injured and both teams looking boring, it's boring to even entertain this discussion right now. Matthews probably won't play another game until at least the end of the month. McDavid is surging and good on him.

It was never a decent debate.

 

[Dondini]

It really is easier to get bigger at 5'10 than say 6'4 and above, just as its easier for people with average height to get fat faster than someone who is tall. Taller you are the mass you need. There is a 15lb gap between lucic and Chara but if you look at them off the ice Lucic looks very built while Chara is extremely lanky in comparison

No I understand that but I also was comparing him to an east coast hockey player who is the same height. But whatever obviously ppl are not in agreement. I just don't buy that hes 192lbs. Funny for a while he was listed at 200 last year as well.

 

[OilCanada92]

They matter but not as much as primary points, but I don't want to go down that again. But I will ask this. Do you consider Taylor Hall an elite playmaker? or more of a drive and shoot type of player. I ask this because in 2012/13 he led the league in secondary assists per 60 at 5v5. Since then over full seasons, he has finished. These are for forwards only and who played over 1000 minutes.

2014/15: Wouldn’t Qualify played less than 1000 minutes, but would be tied for 41st (.44)
2015/16: 92nd (.29)
2016/17: 76th (.38)

Why is it always per 60 and at even strength? Give me the player that puts leads to the puck getting put in the back of the net the most.

If player A is going to give me 90 PP points and 0 ES points every season, while Player B is going to give me 50 ES points and 30 PP points every season, I take player A. Maybe I'll respect player B more but I prefer the actual production. I also wouldn't care if player A plays 2 shifts more a game.

 

[snipes]

It was never a decent debate.

Exactly.

 

[93LEAFS]

Why is it always per 60 and at even strength? Give me the player that puts leads to the puck getting put in the back of the net the most.

If player A is going to give me 90 PP points and 0 ES points every season, while Player B is going to give me 50 ES points and 30 PP points every season, I take player A. Maybe I'll respect player B more but I prefer the actual production. I also wouldn't care if player A plays 2 shifts more a game.

Per 60 is used to even things out. Any player who plays 1000 minutes is going to be a top 6 player. It allows you to see how repeatable something is better.

I think that conclusion is a bit ridiculous. Pretty much anyone who is good at 5v5 player will be a decent power play player. Due to that good 5v5 players in general are more expensive than power play specialist. How dramatically does one player overall change a power plays efficiently? I’ll take the player who drives play at 5v5 every time. I’d guess you’d take Claude Giroux, I’d absolutely take Patrice Bergeron.

 

[OilCanada92]

Per 60 is used to even things out. Any player who plays 1000 minutes is going to be a top 6 player. It allows you to see how repeatable something is better.

I think that conclusion is a bit ridiculous. Pretty much anyone who is good at 5v5 player will be a decent power play player. Due to that good 5v5 players in general are more expensive than power play specialist. How dramatically does one player overall change a power plays efficiently? I’ll take the player who drives play at 5v5 every time. I’d guess you’d take Claude Giroux, I’d absolutely take Patrice Bergeron.

I knew you wouldn't take the comparison as a clear exaggeration and play stupid for the sake of arguing. I was talking about offensive talent in a vacuum.

Bring Bergeron into the scenario when Matthews wins a Selke.

 

[Quiet Jack]

I already posted a scientific resource that showed the effects of a viral infection and fever on an athlete, both physically and mentally. You're not as smart as you think you are, quite the opposite really. Hilarious that you think vomiting is so minor for a professional athlete. You clearly don't understand human physiology at even a 10th grade level.

Here it is again if you want to pretend you're smarter than current medical research.



Re: Mononucleosis

Infectious Disease in Athletes : Current Sports Medicine Reports

Jesus, take it down a notch. I was mostly kidding. Holy cow you are taking this seriously.

 

[beowulf]

Still McDavid and it ain't really close.

 

[93LEAFS]

I knew you wouldn't take the comparison as a clear exaggeration and play stupid for the sake of arguing. I was talking about offensive talent in a vacuum.

Bring Bergeron into the scenario when Matthews wins a Selke.

I’m not saying Matthews is the next Bergeron. I’d take McDavid over Matthews still. But, it has little to do with total points and secondary assists. I’d focus on the better possession numbers (raw and relative by XGF% and CF%) and being a top primary point producer at 5v5.

That seems to be lost on people due to my dismissal of the importance of secondary assists.

A case where most of the things I am in favour of using as evaluation if you are using in statistics would make me take Matthews over Eichel easily. McDavid is elite at most of the things I am talking about.

 

[nabob]

Per 60 is used to even things out. Any player who plays 1000 minutes is going to be a top 6 player. It allows you to see how repeatable something is better.

I think that conclusion is a bit ridiculous. Pretty much anyone who is good at 5v5 player will be a decent power play player. Due to that good 5v5 players in general are more expensive than power play specialist. How dramatically does one player overall change a power plays efficiently? I’ll take the player who drives play at 5v5 every time. I’d guess you’d take Claude Giroux, I’d absolutely take Patrice Bergeron.

You're comparing the best defensive forward in the league to a player who is no where near that conversation. Apples to Oranges.

 

[93LEAFS]

You're comparing the best defensive forward in the league to a player who is no where near that conversation. Apples to Oranges.

Again, I'm not comparing Matthews to Bergeron. Bergeron is just a player who best exemplifies factoring in the things I am talking about as valuing over looking at primarily total points.

 

[nabob]

Matthews does not have a concussion. If he did he wouldn't be traveling with the club. Pretty sure that's a league rule as part of the new concussion protocols. Hopefully they get him back to 100% before he plays again.