McDavid or Matthews

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Quiet Jack

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Mar 24, 2017
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So is Matthews a healthy scratch? Do you have the doctors report on him to prove anything is wrong with him? Prove it, am I supposed to believe heresay?
Show me anything that says mcdavid lost 15 lbs. Please do it so we can end this debate or whatever.

And I highly doubt Matthews is a healthy scratch
 
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McFlyingV

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Substantial fluctuations in waterweight are pretty common when sick. Especially if you're getting extensive exercise like he was. Players play sick all the time. Locker rooms are absolute hotbeds for illnesses to thrive and spread quickly. It's not even in the same ballpark as playing with a back injury where mobility is limited.

I said repeatedly to start the season that McDavid was going to improve dramatically. I'm thrilled that he has. He might be the best thing that the league has going for it and I watch him every chance I get. Wish we could get some of the same love from Oilers fans about another one of the games most exciting young players playing on a Canadian team... but it seems insecurity has blinded many, and I can't help but feel like some of you would rather see Matthews in a wheelchair than making an impact on the game approaching McDavid's

Consider me in the minority of fans who wants to see both of these guys at their best.
Indeed they are, and hydration status has a huge impact on athletic performance. I'd imagine his weight loss stemmed beyond simply hydration status as I'm sure he was having issues with keeping food down and was struggling through aches and lethargy. You'd have to be blind to not see the difference in McDavid's skating during his flu compared to where he's at now. A guy who skates like that doesn't just suddenly become significantly slower unless somethings really affecting him physically. I'm well aware the impacts a back injury can have given that I work in rehabilitation medicine, but its impossible to know how severe his injury was unless you're part of the medical staff in Toronto. We don't even know at this point if he's out from his back injury or from a concussion. I would agree though, the few games that Matthews played through his injury definitely impacted his performance, but he played through far less at less than 100% than McDavid did this season, and his stats falling back down to earth were fully expected. Matthews was never going to have a sophomore season like McDavid because he's not McDavid, and the gap that has always been there still exists.

I give Matthews a ton of credit, personally. He's a hell of a player with incredible hands and an incredible shot, and I fully expect him to become a top 3C in the NHL in his prime. He's not there yet, but he's definitely the best under 22 player after McDavid. He's an exceptional talent.
 

nabob

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Bob Stauffer said on the radio couple weeks ago that McDavid was down to around 175. His listed weight is 192. Stauffer is the closest to the team of any media member.

Debate ended.


Show me anything that says mcdavid lost 15 lbs. Please do it so we can end this debate or whatever.

And I highly doubt Matthews is a healthy scratch

Who says Matthews is a healthy scratch?? I haven't seen anyone doubt that he is infact hurt right now. I however haven't seen any proof that he was playing hurt before being taken out of the lineup because of injury.
 
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McFlyingV

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Come on, where is the proof that he lost 15 lbs. Besides heresay. Sorry, not buying it. Did the oilers or McDavid say it?
Lets drop whatever the reported number was then because it really doesn't matter how much weight he lost. The point is that the illness significantly impacted his on ice performance. If you couldn't see the difference in his skating during that stretch compared to where it was at the start of the season and to where it is today then I really can't help you. If you have a better explanation for why McDavid's skating was significantly worse over that stretch then I'd love to hear it.
 

nabob

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Indeed they are, and hydration status has a huge impact on athletic performance. I'd imagine his weight loss stemmed beyond simply hydration status as I'm sure he was having issues with keeping food down and was struggling through aches and lethargy. You'd have to be blind to not see the difference in McDavid's skating during his flu compared to where he's at now. A guy who skates like that doesn't just suddenly become significantly slower unless somethings really affecting him physically. I'm well aware the impacts a back injury can have given that I work in rehabilitation medicine, but its impossible to know how severe his injury was unless you're part of the medical staff in Toronto. We don't even know at this point if he's out from his back injury or from a concussion. I would agree though, the few games that Matthews played through his injury definitely impacted his performance, but he played through far less at less than 100% than McDavid did this season, and his stats falling back down to earth were fully expected. Matthews was never going to have a sophomore season like McDavid because he's not McDavid, and the gap that has always been there still exists.

I give Matthews a ton of credit, personally. He's a hell of a player with incredible hands and an incredible shot, and I fully expect him to become a top 3C in the NHL in his prime. He's not there yet, but he's definitely the best under 22 player after McDavid. He's an exceptional talent.

I think part of the issue is that a large percentage of posters who live out East don't watch a lot of games from the Western time zone besides the ones that involve their team. Journalists, who's job is to watch and report/analyze hockey players fully admit this to be true.
 

nabob

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Lets drop whatever the reported number was then because it really doesn't matter how much weight he lost. The point is that the illness significantly impacted his on ice performance. If you couldn't see the difference in his skating during that stretch compared to where it was at the start of the season and to where it is today then I really can't help you. If you have a better explanation for why McDavid's skating was significantly worse over that stretch then I'd love to hear it.

His ice time was also reduced and he wasn't practicing with the team either. Anyone who claims that him having the flu twice and strep threat wasn't having a huge impact on his effectiveness is straight up wrong.
 
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McFlyingV

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His ice time was also reduced and he wasn't practicing with the team either. Anyone who claims that him having the flu twice and strep threat wasn't having a huge impact on his effectiveness is straight up wrong.
Yeah thats very true. He missed about a week of practice from what I remember, and thats not something you're going to see out of Connor unless he's really feeling the effects.
 

Quiet Jack

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Lets drop whatever the reported number was then because it really doesn't matter how much weight he lost. The point is that the illness significantly impacted his on ice performance. If you couldn't see the difference in his skating during that stretch compared to where it was at the start of the season and to where it is today then I really can't help you. If you have a better explanation for why McDavid's skating was significantly worse over that stretch then I'd love to hear it.

I have no doubt 97 was under the weather. I'm just saying the extent of it may be being exaggerated. Similar to when I had to read ad nauseum last year about Marner having mono.
 
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McFlyingV

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I have no doubt 97 was under the weather. I'm just saying the extent of it may be being exaggerated. Similar to when I had to read ad nauseum last year about Marner having mono.
You're entitled to that opinion, but I really doubt you'd have that opinion if you watched McDavid for much of the year (maybe you did idk, but I find it highly unlikely if you didn't notice how significantly his skating dropped off). He didn't even look like the fastest player on the ice a lot of nights, which for him is never the case. I don't think I've ever seen a stretch that long where he didn't blow around defenders with ease. I think the effects it had on McDavids energy levels were substantial, and most apparent in his reduced skating capability.

As for Marner, idk why you'd downplay mono. That is a nasty virus that has a significant impact on physical functioning and energy levels.
 

nabob

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I'm replying to you and not that nabob guy because he's an idiot. I have no doubt 97 was under the weather. I'm just saying the extent of it may be being exaggerated. Similar to when I had to read ad nauseum last year about Marner having mono.

Am the other poster who quoted what Bob Stauffer said also an idiot. Am I an idiot because I called you out when you claimed MCDavid never even had the flu and was simply "not feeling well".
If you have some issue where you need to down play the effect of McDavids illness then you have issues.

Do you also doubt the best coach in the NHL
Babcock: I think the thing that happened to Mitchy most is when he got sick there. He got mono there and that I thought knocked him back. It took him a while to get the same pop back in him.

Or maybe you are a physician and more of an expert than team doctors.
 

nabob

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Yeah thats very true. He missed about a week of practice from what I remember, and thats not something you're going to see out of Connor unless he's really feeling the effects.

Wait we have HF doctors and experts in the house who say that isn't true and McDavid was simply not feeling well for a bit. Also that Marner didn't have mono last year or that it didn't effect him. Mono as an adult is incredibly brutal.
 

McFlyingV

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Infections increase the risk of illness and injury in the exercising athlete. Fever impairs coordination, concentration, muscle strength, and aerobic power (31). It also hinders endurance and fluid and temperature regulation. Viral illnesses contribute to tissue wasting, muscle catabolism, and negative nitrogen balance (31). Pain, discomfort, or other symptoms of infection can be distracting during play and competition.

Re: Mononucleosis
According to the consensus statement of the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine, athletes should avoid all exercise for the first 21 d after the onset of illness (41). After that time, they can begin slowly to resume their activities, starting with walking and progressing not more than 10% per week in duration or intensity. Full recovery usually takes 2 to 3 months but can take longer in select cases.
Infectious Disease in Athletes : Current Sports Medicine Reports
 

McKappa

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Hopefully the McDavid flu argument can just go away. I have now read he lost 15 lbs. Come on.

McDavid is better but let's stop with the flu stuff.

Lol 15 lbs

He did, it's a fact, it's not like he lost 15 pounds of muscle mass but he did lose 15 pounds
 

bucks_oil

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I know McDavid playing more isn't the cause of the loses. I never said that. My point was, that the way the ice-time is split, it has that effect. McDavid scores more in games he plays under 21 minutes, McDavid scores less in games he plays over 21 minutes. He also tends to win more when he plays less than 21 minutes, and lose more when he plays over 21 minutes.

So do you think McDavid taking one less shift a game, is a significant reason for him scoring more in those games. I do not. I personally think its due to the fact he scores more in those games, causing his team to win, which leads to him playing less. When trailing, he is playing more, due to the coach trying to chase the game at all costs, especially is, when its a close game.

This applies to almost all elite scorers. I don't get why that is a tough concept to grasp. It isn't even a shot or trying to belittle McDavid. It is something that holds true across all elite scorers. Especially ones that play on winning teams.

So, if you are trying to make an argument against TOI affecting total points to split it like that is pointless. You would need to split it into 4 different categories to try to somewhat eliminate score-effects.
Jeezuzz....

Like what is wrong with you man?! I thought we had you back on the straight and narrow.

Gee... I dunno. You are coaching a team and your Star has already scored multiple points... you are probably winning... you can distribute ice time.

Vs... your star hasn’t scored... nobody has... you need a goal, so he’s out there every moment possible including double shifting in the third.

On night A he’s 0.0 ppg with 24 mins played.

On night B he’s 3.0+ ppg with 18 mins played.

And on many other nights he’s right in the middle and so the extremes skew an otherwise normal distribution within a narrow range.

In short, you have lost your ability to distinguish forest from trees.
 

93LEAFS

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Jeezuzz....

Like what is wrong with you man?! I thought we had you back on the straight and narrow.

Gee... I dunno. You are coaching a team and your Star has already scored multiple points... you are probably winning... you can distribute ice time.

Vs... your star hasn’t scored... nobody has... you need a goal, so he’s out there every moment possible including double shifting in the third.

On night A he’s 3.0+ ppg with 18 mins played

On night B he’s 0.0 ppg with 24 mins played.

And on many other nights he’s right in the middle and so the extremes skew an otherwise normal distribution within a narrow range.

In short, you have lost your ability to distinguish forest from trees.
My issue was pointing to the fact that he is more efficent in games he plays less, as an argument against efficiency stats. The issue when you split any players stats like that, is that in general, star players play less in wins. So, if you divide time on ice at that splitting point you create a ton of evaluation issues.

Which is why, to actually figure out how extra time on the ice was affecting his efficency you would have to split it into 4 groups.

My point isn't that the Oilers win more because McDavid is playing less. My point is that evaluating his ice-time efficiency over an entire season by splitting his ice-time into more and less than 21 minutes is riddled with score effects.
 

bucks_oil

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Except part of that is fueled again by ice-time distribution. McDavid playing more, takes away ice-time for the other oilers, making them less likely to score.

They aren't random, but they are less indicative of skill than either form of primary points.

So... uhhh.... why are these players on the ice so much more so they can get an inflated secondary assist total? Are the put on the ice more because the lack skill?

There is no conspiracy here... these guys are more trustworthy options for their coaches to deliver offense.

The nameless, passing-challenged, elite shooter is out there just as much, don’t kid yourself. It’s just that his skill creates goals a few primary assists (rebounds, tips) but very few secondary assists. One could argue he’s great at what he does, but he doesn’t make his teammates better.
 
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93LEAFS

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So... uhhh.... why are these players on the ice so much more so they can get an inflated secondary assist total? Are the put on the ice more because the lack skill?

There is no conspiracy here... these guys are more trustworthy options for their coaches to deliver offense.

The nameless, passing-challenged, elite shooter is out there just as much, don’t kid yourself. It’s just that his skill creates goals a few primary assists (rebounds, tips) but very few secondary assists. One could argue he’s great at what he does, but he doesn’t make his teammates better.
I'll ignore the petty downplaying of Matthews passing.

That has literally nothing to what the point was. Matthews has the exact same effect if you took his last year stats and split them at say 17 minutes and 30 seconds (he averaged 17.03 minutes in wins, and 18.11). I don't get how saying splitting the ice-time measurment at 21 is riddled with score effects and coaching bias that makes it pretty pointless for measuring efficiency for a player. Leafs don't win more because Matthews plays less, they are probably put in the position to win earlier in the game so they don't rely on him as much. How about Crosby. Last year he averaged 19.11 minutes a game in wins, but had a PPG of 1.53. In loses, he averaged 20.40 but averaged only .61 PPG.

How many times do I have to say, this isn't a shot at McDavid. This is a simple fact of hockey statistics among star players. Its an issue with trying to discount efficiency measures by using a cut off on an individual player, which would be riddled with score effects.
 

daver

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He played 20 minutes and 41 seconds in wins, and had a 1.49 points per game

He played 21 minutes and 45 seconds in loses and had a .86 points per game.

Explain to me how this isn't primarily driven by score effects.

Because by your conclusion, the more the McDavid plays the more likely the Oilers are to lose. I'd say that is likely, but far from the causation, it's just how coaches use their benches.

Do you think McDavid is more likely to be scoring more because he plays less, or because his team is winning? Which seems to reduce his ice-time.

It shows that McDavid doesn't necessarily need all that TOI to score at the pace he did. It shows that measuring efficiency in p/60 is meaningless when it is clear that it's hard to keep up your p/60 when you are playing a ton of minutes towards the end of the game.

It is very sketchy to diminish the gap in raw points with a p/60 stat.
 
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sparxx87

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And McDavid has looked off also since he has been dealing with the flu, strep throat, and the flu again that affected his play which also zapped his energy where he lost up to 10 lbs. Now we are back to square 1 when you jumped in trying to dismiss this when other players were playing far from his peak efficiency. If you want to make excuses, then atleast be consistent. The Redwings avatar is not fooling anyone. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/139044585/
Not at all, actually. I pointed out that there’s a difference between being sick, and being injured and unable to play. You’re disputing this?

You tried to twist it into Patrik Laine not getting any slack for having a concussion when I also, never dismissed that. Laine may have been slowed, but it didn’t matter because he was already losing the race. It’s completely irrelevant and not even comparable.

We’re back to square 1 because you’re trying to twist and manipulate your way through. I didn’t contradict anything I said and didn’t make special exceptions for anyone’s injury. I asked you to be consistent and that’s why I jumped in... You’ve consistently downplayed one and tried to milk thd other. Your work is on full display in this thread alone but you try to call me out for not being fair? :laugh:

And what does my avatar have to do with this? It’s been the same since the day I joined? Is it a problem for me to have my two favourite players on it? ... is it ok with you if I like more than one team? :laugh:
 
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Legion34

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Debate ended.




Who says Matthews is a healthy scratch?? I haven't seen anyone doubt that he is infact hurt right now. I however haven't seen any proof that he was playing hurt before being taken out of the lineup because of injury.


What is proof??? Matthews himself said that he was hurt and playing hurt for weeks. Prior to the original time off. And it got worse against the blues. He also said he was sick 2 weeks ago. And sounded like it.

Team reporter shilton said he was hurt in the second game. He has played one game healthy.

Is a quote from the player himself and the team reporter proof? Or do you need medical records?
 
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The Winter Soldier

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Not at all, actually. I pointed out that there’s a difference between being sick, and being injured and unable to play. You’re disputing this?

You tried to twist it into Patrik Laine not getting any slack for having a concussion when I also, never dismissed that. Laine may have been slowed, but it didn’t matter because he was already losing the race. It’s completely irrelevant and not even comparable.

We’re back to square 1 because you’re trying to twist and manipulate your way through. I didn’t contradict anything I said and didn’t make special exceptions for anyone’s injury. I asked you to be consistent and that’s why I jumped in... You’ve consistently downplayed one and tried to milk thd other. Your work is on full display in this thread alone but you try to call me out for not being fair? :laugh:

And what does my avatar have to do with this? It’s been the same since the day I joined? Is it a problem for me to have my two favourite players on it? ... is it ok with you if I like more than one team? :laugh:

I twisted nothing. The only twisting here was you got yourself twisted in a knot by getting defensive when someone posted Matthews was hurt, which I did not discount, where the inference was had he been healthy, this would somehow make him mythically closer to McDavid as a player. I simply pointed out McDavid has been affected by now well reported series of illnesses that also affected his play also. So the mythical slim difference of Matthews to McDavid was seriously overplayed.
 
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Regal

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My issue was pointing to the fact that he is more efficent in games he plays less, as an argument against efficiency stats. The issue when you split any players stats like that, is that in general, star players play less in wins. So, if you divide time on ice at that splitting point you create a ton of evaluation issues.

Which is why, to actually figure out how extra time on the ice was affecting his efficency you would have to split it into 4 groups.

My point isn't that the Oilers win more because McDavid is playing less. My point is that evaluating his ice-time efficiency over an entire season by splitting his ice-time into more and less than 21 minutes is riddled with score effects.

So wouldn't the same score effects play a role in comparing players on teams with vastly different records? If the Oilers are riding McDavid to try to get wins while they've be been consistently losing, it's likely going to negatively affect his efficiency more than if the team was winning.
 
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