McDavid or Matthews

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hockeyguy1967

Trans hockey fan! Go Leafs and Oilers!
Aug 24, 2017
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Matthews is not even a top 20 Forward in the NHL. He is many, many tiers below McDavid. This compairson is a joke.

This Selke vote thing that people are on about is the worst thing I have ever heard. Selke candidate that does not play on the PK, lol.
 
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Soliloquy of a Dogge

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Aug 8, 2012
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:laugh: love the shameless Oiler fans.
What was that about generalizing and stereotyping an entire fanbase or particular fans? Karma is a bitch. The amount of crap Oilers fans have had to deal with in this almost 100 page thread is now coming back to bite certain Leafs fans in the ass.

It is hilarious that particular Leafs fans think that Matthews would be playing with a back injury that severely limited him on a Babcock coached team though. It couldn't have possibly been his unsustainable start to the season normalizing, could it? He missed 4 games and came back looking just fine, just wasn't getting the good luck he was earlier in the season. The concussion and him missing more time currently isn't affirmation of Leafs' fans conspiracy theories that his production suffered because he was suffering from phantom ailments or that Babcock is trying to turn him into a checker and saddle him with linemates that purposefully bring down his production (that thread on the Leafs board is gold).

On the other hand, while McDavid has been battling through multiple sicknesses, Leafs fans sure didn't hesitate to jump on the "McDavid sucks", "McDavid can't lead his team" and "Matthews is just as good as McDavid" nonsense train. A train that's spectacularly derailed, thankfully.
 
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nabob

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That's pretty obvious. Which is why the big argument I got into on this thread was that judging players primarily by total points is absolutely ridiculous. Numbers are useful because they eliminate pre-conceived biases, but the need to be objectively looked at in totality.

Funny because you only use numbers to confirm your preconceived bias and the narratives that you have created.
 
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Quiet Jack

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I have to chime in here on the flu thing that keeps getting mentioned. And keep in mind that I think McDavid is better than Matthews by a fair margin.

If McDavid had a full blown flu he would have missed at least a game other two. He didn't. When you have the flu you can barely function, let alone play an NHL hockey game.

He might have been a little sick, but let's stop pretending he had the flu.
 

nabob

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What was that about generalizing and stereotyping an entire fanbase?

It is hilarious that particular Leafs fans think that Matthews would be playing with a back injury that severely limited him on a Babcock coached team though. It couldn't have possibly been his unsustainable start to the season normalizing, could it? He missed 4 games and came back looking just fine, just wasn't getting the good luck he was earlier in the season. The concussion and him missing more time currently isn't affirmation of Leafs' fans conspiracy theories that his production suffered because he was suffering from phantom ailments.

On the other hand, while McDavid has been battling through multiple sicknesses, Leafs fans sure didn't hesitate to jump on the "McDavid sucks", "McDavid can't lead his team" and "Matthews is just as good as McDavid" nonsense train. A train that's spectacularly derailed, thankfully.

Matthews went through droughts last season as well. He is a much more streaky player and less consistent than MCDavid.
 

93LEAFS

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He doesn't score more because his team is winning, that's comment make absolutely zero sense and having one more minute of rest doesn't matter for a player of McDavid's freakish conditioning.


Im talking about things that happen in every single game that can cause the difference between 1 shift happening or not. You're talking like someone who has never watched a game at all, and think that the amount of PP minutes is static from one game to the next, that the health and how well other teammates are playing is static from game to game. Same thing applies to every single one of the narratives that you have tried to create.

I think the difference in 1 minute played has very little impact on P/60 for the best player in he world. I think you're so confused by what random points you're trying to make against McDavid that you've run out of straws. McDavid also has his ice time cut in games where they're losing as have little chance of winning, just like he does in games where they're winning by a safe margin. He also doesn't get his ice time reduced if they're winning by one or two goals which are the most common margins of victory, because he is relied on to play more at both ends of the ice (including PK) whereas Matthews isn't. So many factors you are ignoring because they don't support your narrative, which is very common for people who rely on stats to prove their points rather than those who use stats and actually watch the player play.
Okay, but then why do you support the efficiency claim that was posted by Daver? It seems primarily driven by whether his team is winning or losing.

This isn't something that is specific to McDavid. This happens to all players. Matthews scores less when we lose, but he plays more minutes, atleast last year. This isn't something against McDavid. It is simply a fact for most elite players.

Take McDavid out of it. Look at Crosby. He scores more and plays less when his team wins. This has been true for almost every year of his career.

Saying Matthews isn't relied upon on both ends of the ice is simply ridiculous. You can't seriously claim that and then claim you actually watch him. And your saying I depend on numbers and not watching.

Seriously, go look at any elite players of your choosing. Look at their win loss splits, their efficiency, and how it holds up historically. This applies to other elite scorers, just look at Crosby, Ovechkin and Patrick Kane over the past 5 years and their splits in this regard.
 
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sparxx87

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[mod]

Matthews is not even a top 20 Forward in the NHL. He is many, many tiers below McDavid. This compairson is a joke.

This Selke vote thing that people are on about is the worst thing I have ever heard. Selke candidate that does not play on the PK, lol.
[mod] like Gord Miller who gets input from coaches and GM’s that put Matthews in the top tier? These are people who make their living on knowing the game of hockey... what do you do for a living? Why are you more credible than them?

The comparison may be a joke to you. I agree, it’s McDavid until proven otherwise, but Matthews is much closer than some are willing to recognize - that’s why this thread has continued.

Did you lol when Datsyuk won the Selke without playing PK? Was it because he was incapable, or because Babcock has a specific philosophy on his PK’ers and rarely strays from it?
 
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Soliloquy of a Dogge

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I have to chime in here on the flu thing that keeps getting mentioned. And keep in mind that I think McDavid is better than Matthews by a fair margin.

If McDavid had a full blown flu he would have missed at least a game other two. He didn't. When you have the flu you can barely function, let alone play an NHL hockey game.

He might have been a little sick, but let's stop pretending he had the flu.
Because people just randomly lose 15lbs, right?

It's widely confirmed that he was very sick and probably should have missed games. He insisted on playing though. That's what a Captain who wants to lead his team does. And he still produced while looking nothing like himself for at least 20 games.
 

nabob

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Okay, but then why do you support the efficiency claim that was posted by Daver? It seems primarily driven by whether his team is winning or losing.

This isn't something that is specific to McDavid. This happens to all players. Matthews scores less when we lose, but he plays more minutes, atleast last year. This isn't something against McDavid. It is simply a fact for most elite players.

Take McDavid out of it. Look at Crosby. He scores more and plays less when his team wins. This has been true for almost every year of his career.

Saying Matthews isn't relied upon on both ends of the ice is simply ridiculous. You can't seriously claim that and then claim you actually watch him. And your saying I depend on numbers and not watching.

Seriously, go look at any elite players of your choosing. Look at their win loss splits, their efficiency, and how it holds up historically. This applies to other elite scorers, just look at Crosby, Ovechkin and Patrick Kane over the past 5 years and their splits in this regard.

Players don't score less because their team is losing a game...the score of the game is a product of whether they score, not the other way around lol.

It's the most simple logic that if you score more, you win more as long as the goals against stays similar.
 

Soliloquy of a Dogge

I love you, Boots
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but Matthews is much closer than some are willing to recognize - that’s why this thread has continued.

I mean, in the scope of our Solar System, the Sun and the Earth are "close".

So yes, depending on how you look at it and your persepctive, Matthews is "much closer".

Would be a lot closer if Matthews could actually display a better two way game than McDavid and close the 30 point scoring gap though.
 

nabob

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Because people just randomly lose 15lbs, right?

It's widely confirmed that he was very sick and probably should have missed games. He insisted on playing though. That's what a Captain who wants to lead his team does. And he still produced while looking nothing like himself for at least 20 games.

I'm sure if the Oilers were leading the conference and weren't already fighting for their playoff lives he would have sat a few games. Just goes to show that not only is McDavid the best player in the league he's an awesome captain and leader already too.
 

nabob

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[mod] like Gord Miller who gets input from coaches and GM’s that put Matthews in the top tier? These are people who make their living on knowing the game of hockey... what do you do for a living? Why are you more credible than them?

The comparison may be a joke to you. I agree, it’s McDavid until proven otherwise, but Matthews is much closer than some are willing to recognize - that’s why this thread has continued.

Did you lol when Datsyuk won the Selke without playing PK? Was it because he was incapable, or because Babcock has a specific philosophy on his PK’ers and rarely strays from it?

Datsyuk was already known as an elite defensive player for years before he won that.

Matthews has the potential to make it closer, but as it stands he isn't nearly as close as you and Leaf fans would like to imagine.
 
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sparxx87

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Datsyuk was already known as an elite defensive player for years before he won that.

Matthews has the potential to make it closer, but as it stands he isn't nearly as close as you and Leaf fans would like to imagine.
Irrelevant - I quoted a poster suggesting you can’t be a Selke candidate without PK - Datsyuk debunks this theory.

What about the dozens of neutral fans in this thread alone? How about the coaches and executives who told Gord Miller that consensus top 3 are 87, 97 and 34?

You’re trying to suggest it’s bias, but the amount of non-Leaf fans kinda kills that theory too.
 

nabob

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Irrelevant - I quoted a poster suggesting you can’t be a Selke candidate without PK - Datsyuk debunks this theory.

What about the dozens of neutral fans in this thread alone? How about the coaches and executives who told Gord Miller that consensus top 3 are 87, 97 and 34?

You’re trying to suggest it’s bias, but the amount of non-Leaf fans kinda kills that theory too.
Irrelevant.

If you don't think Leaf fans are biased and overrate Matthews then your opinion is just that. Irrelevant.
 

93LEAFS

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Players don't score less because their team is losing a game...the score of the game is a product of whether they score, not the other way around lol.

It's the most simple logic that if you score more, you win more as long as the goals against stays similar.
It is in general tougher to score coming back due to set-ups. But, the original point had to do with.

But, the argument was about score effects and their effects on how players are managed particularly stars are managed. If it is a coincidence that McDavid is more efficent measuring by ppg when he plays under 21 minutes (which strongly co-relates to wins, but isn't the causation) why does it hold up among so many players. The games they play less, their team is more likely to win and the more likely they are to score more. Due to this, if you create an arbitrary cut-off point of minutes (in this case 21 minutes) where the team more likely wins when that player plays under it, it is going to dramatically alter efficiency. Take a look at the splits of Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and Kane. I have no idea who else you would consider to look at the same as McDavid, but I'll add Stamkos and Tavares. Here are there splits for last year, but I encourage you to look into the previous one. When one of them has played more minutes in a loss than a win, it is an aberration.

Alex Ovechkin

Sidney Crosby

Evgeni Malkin

John Tavares

Steven Stamkos

Patrick Kane

If I pick the middle ground between each of these players ice-time when they win and they lose, and then use the PPG from each, the numbers will always make them look more efficent. But, the primary driver of this effect would not be efficency but rather how they were managed in winning games. Generally, this would be due to the fact, most players play extra minutes in the 3rd when they are losing in close games which creates the ice-time difference, with coaches using time-outs to get that extra shift.
 

saffronleaf

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McDavid was reportedly sick for 3 weeks which has sapped energy and caused him to lose up to 10 lbs. He's just starting to feel well again, where he put up 4 points in his last game. Yes, let's wait until he is healthy too where things may not be so interesting when he is 100%.

Yup. Not sure what the future holds, but right now McDavid > Matthews. But there's still hope that maybe next season will be different.
 

firstemperor

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People actually think neutral fans think that Matthews belongs in the same conversation as Crosby and McDavid?

The delusional bubble that envelops the GTA is something else.

There is no such thing as a "neutral fan". And no, McDavid>Matthews, most of it is predicated on game-breaking speed and pedigree. And the fact Matthews has been hobbling for some time now.

The gap between Crosby, McDavid and others (first that come to mind are guys like Barkov, Malkin, Matthews, Karlsson, specifically) is far smaller than others will care to acknowledge though.

If you only read what "neutral fans" said on here, you'd think it was a Serena Williams versus 250th ranked male in the world type gap.

Wouldn't be surprised if people on here think McDavid + 3 competent NHL players would match up well with 5 other, random NHL'ers in a 4 on 5, on any given shift. It's getting ridiculous.
 

sparxx87

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Irrelevant.

If you don't think Leaf fans are biased and overrate Matthews then your opinion is just that. Irrelevant.
So informed and unbiased opinions are irrelevant? Interesting.

The Leafs have millions of fans and you can’t take a handful of Internet opinions as consensus. Most acknowledge McDavid is ahead, but it’s not by ‘several tiers’ as some Oiler fans suggest.

I’d argue you’re overrating McDavid by already giving him Crosby’s crown - even he acknowledges Crosby as the best.

Either way, HF provides opportunity for individuals to voice their opinion, regardless of whether they’re in the majority or the minority. No individual can speak for millions.
 
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ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
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Patrick Kane has a series winning goal for the 2nd round, Western Conference Finals, and the Stanley Cup Finals. He is the best leader in the history of the known planet if he played for Toronto /s
 
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hockeyguy1967

Trans hockey fan! Go Leafs and Oilers!
Aug 24, 2017
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I have to chime in here on the flu thing that keeps getting mentioned. And keep in mind that I think McDavid is better than Matthews by a fair margin.

If McDavid had a full blown flu he would have missed at least a game other two. He didn't. When you have the flu you can barely function, let alone play an NHL hockey game.

He might have been a little sick, but let's stop pretending he had the flu.

He lost 15 pounds. He had Mono
 

MagicalRazor

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People actually think neutral fans think that Matthews belongs in the same conversation as Crosby and McDavid?

The delusional bubble that envelops the GTA is something else.
LOL oh man . Lets be honest now Matthews is a much better defensive player than MCdavid diffrent tool set. dose he belong in the same Category ? 100%. Matthews is elite at what he dose is MCDAVID CURRENTLY BETTER hell yeah he is , don't discard Matthews just because you favour someone else .
 
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