Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

ACLEVERNAME

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Nope. Jealous and entitled fans whining about it made the League change the rules and make the draft a joke that had an always good New York Rangers team draft 1OA.
Nah, it was pretty obvious 'why' the change was made. Tho I do agree with you that the NHL used it as leverage to implement a very controlled and maybe even 'conspiratorial' system. This is different tho. Or similar? I don't even know anymore.
 

TheNumber4

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Nah, it was pretty obvious 'why' the change was made. Tho I do agree with you that the NHL used it as leverage to implement a very controlled and maybe even 'conspiratorial' system. This is different tho. Or similar? I don't even know anymore.
The Draft was doing exactly what it was designed to do for decades. To give crappy teams a chance to rebuild. Oilers didn't tank, just plain sucked while trying everything they could to turn it around. And got "rewarded" with a couple of lucky lotteries. Fans cried. NHL changed the rules to appease them.
 
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Bizz

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"what Vegas is doing is well within the rules"

What Steve Avery did to Martin Brodeur was also "well within the rules" at the time, funny how fast that one got changed. But Vegas is getting a pass due to clear favoritism by Bettman and his cronies.
 
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ACLEVERNAME

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The Draft was doing exactly what it was designed to do for decades. To give crappy teams a chance to rebuild. Oilers didn't tank, just plain sucked while trying everything they could to turn it around. And got "rewarded" with a couple of lucky lotteries. Fans cried. NHL changed the rules to appease them.

The Salary Cap was doing exactly what it was designed to do for decades. To give crappy teams a chance to compete. Knights didn't cheat, just plain excelled while trying everything they could to keep the ball rolling. And got "rewarded" with a (maybe)couple of Stanley Cup Championships. Fans cried. NHL did not change the rules to appease them.
 

TheNumber4

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The Salary Cap was doing exactly what it was designed to do for decades. To give crappy teams a chance to compete. Knights didn't cheat, just plain excelled while trying everything they could to keep the ball rolling. And got "rewarded" with a (maybe)couple of Stanley Cup Championships. Fans cried. NHL did not change the rules to appease them.
Nothing about the Knights is success in any way that has happened in the NHL before. Started with the expansion draft. And the cherry on top was the Cap Cheating.
 
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BluesyShoes

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The argument isn't that Vegas is breaking rules, it is that the rules need to change. Plain and simple, it should be an even playing field in the post season. It is true in theory that any team can exploit the same loophole, but in practice it is not the case. Legitimate long term injuries happening before the trade deadline that also have a recovery just in time for playoffs are very unlikely, and it is extremely unlikely we see more than one or two teams exploit this any given season. So in effect the result is that in any given season, one or two teams will have an additional say ~10% salary cap at their disposal in the post season, which is a gigantic advantage in a high parity league. Having salary cap advantages is basically the definition of an uneven playing field for this league, and IMO its no coincidence these teams have histories of post season success.

The whole thing reminds me of Luongo's contract, it was legal and approved by the league, the Canucks benefitted from it for years in their competitive window, but later were penalized for it. I don't see retroactive punishment coming for these teams, nor do I think it is deserved (unless there is proof of fraudulent doctor's reports) but it is precedent that operating within the rules is not the same as operating within the spirit of the rules, and that the league does care about the latter.
 

Fourier

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The argument isn't that Vegas is breaking rules, it is that the rules need to change. Plain and simple, it should be an even playing field in the post season. It is true in theory that any team can exploit the same loophole, but in practice it is not the case. Legitimate long term injuries happening before the trade deadline that also have a recovery just in time for playoffs are very unlikely, and it is extremely unlikely we see more than one or two teams exploit this any given season. So in effect the result is that in any given season, one or two teams will have an additional say ~10% salary cap at their disposal in the post season, which is a gigantic advantage in a high parity league. Having salary cap advantages is basically the definition of an uneven playing field for this league, and IMO its no coincidence these teams have histories of post season success.

The whole thing reminds me of Luongo's contract, it was legal and approved by the league, the Canucks benefitted from it for years in their competitive window, but later were penalized for it. I don't see retroactive punishment coming for these teams, nor do I think it is deserved (unless there is proof of fraudulent doctor's reports) but it is precedent that operating within the rules is not the same as operating within the spirit of the rules, and that the league does care about the latter.
This is exactly the point that needs to be made over and over. Set aside any allegations of cheating in this case. The rule creates a completely unintended opportunity for a huge competitive advantage available to few teams which in turn results in a significant potential for abuse. The real question is what does/can the league do to remedy this in the next CBA.
 
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MakeTheGoalsLarger

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I don't care whether it's fair. Other teams don't do this because they need their best players to make the playoffs or reach a better ranking. Vegas think they can afford doing this . good for them.

But it's sad for the fans who don't get to watch the best players. Especially those who buy tickets before the "injury" happens. This reminds me of the NBA trend of resting the best players every once in a while. It's bad for the league.
 

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Nope. Jealous and entitled fans whining about it made the League change the rules and make the draft a joke that had an always good New York Rangers team draft 1OA.
Remember: that was the draft where after the 1st drawing, Pittsburgh - that Pittsburgh team, which was 7th in the league standings but got bounced by Montreal in the preliminary round - had a 12.5% chance to end up with the 1st overall pick, while Detroit - legitimately shitty, not trying to tank that year - ended up picking 4th.

Because, after Edmonton won the draft in 2015, the league "fixed" the "problem of tanking."
 
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The argument isn't that Vegas is breaking rules, it is that the rules need to change. Plain and simple, it should be an even playing field in the post season.
1. There is no possible way to make things so that it's an "even playing field in the post season." This is the same "argument" as to why we should have a salary cap that contemplates income taxes, which will purportedly "make things fair for everyone" but should only contemplate state income taxes and not local income taxes, or other taxes, or cost of living, or so on.

2. The rules can't change unless there's an amendment to the CBA. The CBA can't be amended unless both the NHL and NHLPA agree to the desired amendment, and as has been pointed out numerous times the NHLPA won't allow players to be forced to not play in the playoffs under a rule that they would have been perfectly able to play in Game 82 (and did so), or that endangers the safety of any player.
 

Perfect_Drug

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The whole thing reminds me of Luongo's contract, it was legal and approved by the league, the Canucks benefitted from it for years in their competitive window, but later were penalized for it. I don't see retroactive punishment coming for these teams, nor do I think it is deserved (unless there is proof of fraudulent doctor's reports) but it is precedent that operating within the rules is not the same as operating within the spirit of the rules, and that the league does care about the latter.

It's worse than 'just the Luongo contract'.

The Canucks are the ONLY franchise penalized with the cap recapture penalty, and Florida is the ONLY beneficiary.

2 Other instances of this same rule waived the Canadian teams benefit, and waived the penalty to the US team.

Weber's $24million recapture penalty was waived for the predators, montreal got nothing.


Oilers didn't get the $5million cap recapture from Duncan Keith.

It's hard not to see it as them ammending rules to hurt Canadian teams, when the only beneficiary is the Panthers, and the only penalized team is the Canucks.
 
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OrangePMD

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It's worse than 'just the Luongo contract'.

The Canucks are the ONLY franchise penalized with the cap recapture penalty, and Florida is the ONLY beneficiary.

2 Other instances of this same rule waived the Canadian teams benefit, and waived the penalty to the US team.

Weber's $24million recapture penalty was waived for the predators, montreal got nothing.


Oilers didn't get the $5million cap recapture from Duncan Keith.

It's hard not to see it as them ammending rules to hurt Canadian teams, when the only beneficiary is the Panthers, and the only penalized team is the Canucks.
LA got a recapture penalty for the Mike Richards termination, NJ still has a penalty from Kovalchuk retirement. Chicago had a penalty from Keith retirement.

Shea Weber isn't retired. He is still considred to be an active player.

You're right about no Duncan Keith cap benefit for Oilers. So congrats, you weren't entirely wrong about everything.
 
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Vegas07

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What more proof do you need other than he was too hurt to be on the regular roster on Game 82 *BUT* in Game 1 of the Playoffs he scored the series' first goal and played 17 minutes. DO! YOU! BELIEVE! IN! MIRACLES!!!!!

Not a bona fide injury therefore and that's cap circumvention, not "following the rule." It's as clear cut as it gets. And when you get even NHL media types to admit it, you know that the Knights are cheating.

You're right about the last part though.
Stone was injured in the conference finals against Montreal in 2021 when he had 0 points in 6 games. He was limping after game 1 last year. He played with a broken wrist in the Finals.

It’s funny that people think if a guy plays in the playoffs it means he made a recovery and still isn’t hurt.
 
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Jets

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Edmonton, an undesirable small market Canadian team loses on purpose - completely “within the rules” - league can’t have that, draft lottery is changed to not allow worst team automatic first pick or multiple first picks years in a row.

Vegas, Gary Bettman’s pet project expansion success story abuses the LTIR system to get an unfair advantage 4 of their first 5 seasons in the league but it’s “within the rules” - crickets from the league
 

BluesyShoes

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This is exactly the point that needs to be made over and over. Set aside any allegations of cheating in this case. The rule creates a completely unintended opportunity for a huge competitive advantage available to few teams which in turn results in a significant potential for abuse. The real question is what does/can the league do to remedy this in the next CBA.
Well said, I agree the conversation should turn to solutions for the next CBA. I'm not sure it will be as simple as extending the salary cap into the post season.
I don't care whether it's fair. Other teams don't do this because they need their best players to make the playoffs or reach a better ranking. Vegas think they can afford doing this . good for them.

But it's sad for the fans who don't get to watch the best players. Especially those who buy tickets before the "injury" happens. This reminds me of the NBA trend of resting the best players every once in a while. It's bad for the league.
That is not what Vegas is doing; they are doing the exact opposite. They are replacing their injured star players with new healthy players in order to make the post season, and then using the previously injured star players and their equally expensive replacements in the post season. I don't follow Vegas that closely, but I imagine it is unlikely that Vegas would have Tomas Hertl had Stone not gone on LTIR, and now that have both Hertl and Stone playing. In reality Vegas fans get to enjoy more stars, not less.

1. There is no possible way to make things so that it's an "even playing field in the post season." This is the same "argument" as to why we should have a salary cap that contemplates income taxes, which will purportedly "make things fair for everyone" but should only contemplate state income taxes and not local income taxes, or other taxes, or cost of living, or so on.

2. The rules can't change unless there's an amendment to the CBA. The CBA can't be amended unless both the NHL and NHLPA agree to the desired amendment, and as has been pointed out numerous times the NHLPA won't allow players to be forced to not play in the playoffs under a rule that they would have been perfectly able to play in Game 82 (and did so), or that endangers the safety of any player.

1. While it may not be possible to have a completely even playing field, rules are typically crafted in the spirit of fair competition. Fair competition is kind of the essence of "sport." I think I've expressed that this loophole creates an unintended advantage to a very small amount of teams each season that have also been having great post season success. We aren't seeing the same thing with tax advantages and any other incentives for players to play in certain cities. Players will always want to play in NYC and California despite the taxes. For me personally, I would take the Metro travel schedule over any tax breaks or beaches. Taking all incentives into account is rather impossible when you consider all of them, I am sure you agree we can't go looking at all incentives and their arguable impacts. But unlike all that nebulous stuff, the LTIR loophole is as clear cut an unintended, undeserved advantage as it can get, and it is entirely created by the current CBA.

2. The rules may not be changed today, but I think we can still argue that they should be changed down the road. As you point out, it isn't as straightforward a fix as it might seem, but there are solutions other than forbidding players to play. I think it starts with implementing rules so that teams don't end up in situations where they have to shelf healthy star players in order to ice a cap compliant roster. All teams deal with injuries, stars go down after the deadline all the time, and those teams deal with it, it is part of the game. Having a star go down with a long-term injury before the trade deadline should not be a godsend. I don't think it is under the purview of player safety to have everyone hoping their stars get injured in February.

The Canucks are the ONLY franchise penalized with the cap recapture penalty, and Florida is the ONLY beneficiary.

The Canucks benefitted for the years they had Luongo at a lower cap hit than it should have been. They saved about $1.5M in AAV in cap each season, which is about $2M in todays cap dollars. That is why they were punished (I don't agree with the punishment personally.)

Stone was injured in the conference finals against Montreal in 2021 when he had 0 points in 6 games. He was limping after game 1 last year. He played with a broken wrist in the Finals.

It’s funny that people think if a guy plays in the playoffs it means he made a recovery and still isn’t hurt.
Loads of players play hurt in the post season, but it seems only Stone has the privilege of playing with his LTIR scab every April lol.
 

BWJM

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My issue with it is simply there is something shady involved. Doctor magically clearing a player on time? Injury that perfectly lines up with playoffs? Lying about the significance of it?

It's a full team effort.

Good on Vegas/Tampa for doing it over the years, it clearly paid off, but it will never change the fact that it kinda makes you a scum bag.. within the rule book or not. People don't forget!
 

Martin Skoula

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My issue with it is simply there is something shady involved. Doctor magically clearing a player on time? Injury that perfectly lines up with playoffs? Lying about the significance of it?

It's a full team effort.

Good on Vegas/Tampa for doing it over the years, it clearly paid off, but it will never change the fact that it kinda makes you a scum bag.. within the rule book or not. People don't forget!

There’s a guaranteed lawsuit down the line when a player needs a surgery and their team helpfully recommends waiting until the recovery timeline lines up with game 1, one of those guys will end up with complications from the delay and it’ll be yet another scandal for the league to poorly deal with.
 

Saga of the Elk

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Stone was injured in the conference finals against Montreal in 2021 when he had 0 points in 6 games. He was limping after game 1 last year. He played with a broken wrist in the Finals.

It’s funny that people think if a guy plays in the playoffs it means he made a recovery and still isn’t hurt.
Literally nobody thinks that. The point is lots of "hurt" guys don't go on LTIR to allow their team to add new players above the salary cap, as Stone and Vegas do.
 

New User Name

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I'm far from a Vegas fan but this thread is all about butt hurt fans of other teams not having the intelligent management staff on their team that Vegas has.

Though I will say Ottawa has gotten royally screwed by the league taking a 1st round pick away from them as a result of the leagues incompetence...but then Vegas whined and bitched about that (also within the rules---don't blame Vegas) not a Sens fan either.

The league should know ALL conditions on players contracts before they okay a trade.
 
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