Proposal: Martin Necas for Guhle + Kovacevic + 2nd

[pth2]

Habs fans are absurd to argue that Guhle is .......That said, if Necas and Carolina can’t reach an extension then this type of deal could make sense as a base.....

So.... the OP is absurd yet the deal makes sense as a base?

 

[RasmusAndersson]

So.... the OP is absurd yet the deal makes sense as a base?

So you didn’t read what I said at all? Got it.

I said absurd to argue Guhle is already a top-pairing dman.

You make it quite hard to have a real discussion by just ignoring what other people actually say lol

 

[General Fanager]

Habs fans are absurd to argue that Guhle is a top pair dman just because he plays on a bottom-3 d core in the league. Is Cam Fowler a #1? Is Matheson? Is Alex Vlasic a top-pair guy too? This reasoning is just silly and not persuasive at all. Guhle is a #3/4 on a contender, and I like him and think he has #2 upside.

I think Hanifin is a great comparable as a 2nd pairing guy at 22 who could be a top-pairing LD on a good team in the right circumstances in a few years. Great skater, good size, very good but not elite defensively, good puck mover, and good but not super high-end offensively.

But from my neutral perspective Habs fans are just underrating Necas so much here and are crazy to turn down Guhle for Necas one-for-one without a second thought. Necas is like Nik Ehlers but younger and can also be a C. Amazing offensive talent. He’s a good top-line RW or a great 2nd line RW/C now at just 25. In a vacuum you take the 25 year old top-line guy over the 22 year old potential top-pair guy 9/10 times. That said, if Necas and Carolina can’t reach an extension then this type of deal could make sense as a base. Teams would be lining up for Necas across the league though because he has a unique offensive skill-set that many teams lack.

Even if I agreed with you (which I dont) but The Habs have enough 1st round picks in the next 2 years to trade for a guy like Necas without giving up Guhle.

So why do this at 1v1 let alone add the stuff in the OP??

So you didn’t read what I said at all? Got it.

I said absurd to argue Guhle is already a top-pairing dman.

You make it quite hard to have a real discussion by just ignoring what other people actually say lol

Disregarding nonsense is not the same as ignoring what you said.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Even if I agreed with you (which I dont) but The Habs have enough 1st round picks in the next 2 years to trade for a guy like Necas without giving up Guhle.

So why do this at 1v1 let alone add the stuff in the OP??

What part don’t you agree with?

And because Carolina likely isn’t gonna be looking for a package of picks for Necas given that they’re a contending team and he’s a core top-6 piece. If Necas is moved it’ll probably be for an established top-pair RD or similar C/RW, or if not a high-potential NHL ready top-4 guy like Guhle.

Unless you’re giving your top-10 first this year and likely next, which is more valuable than just Guhle

How did I disregard what I said? Did you guys actually read my post? I said Guhle is not yet a top-pairing dman but projects as a #2. That’s pretty high praise lol. And I said Necas has more value in a vacuum but that with a potential contract dispute this could be a solid base value-wise. I’m a neutral fan, I don’t get why you guys are so combative here

 

[JT3]

Habs fans are absurd to argue that Guhle is a top pair dman just because he plays on a bottom-3 d core in the league. Is Cam Fowler a #1? Is Matheson? Is Alex Vlasic a top-pair guy too? This reasoning is just silly and not persuasive at all. Guhle is a #3/4 on a contender, and I like him and think he has #2 upside.

I think Hanifin is a great comparable as a 2nd pairing guy at 22 who could be a top-pairing LD on a good team in the right circumstances in a few years. Great skater, good size, very good but not elite defensively, good puck mover, and good but not super high-end offensively.

But from my neutral perspective Habs fans are just underrating Necas so much here and are crazy to turn down Guhle for Necas one-for-one without a second thought. Necas is like Nik Ehlers but younger and can also be a C. Amazing offensive talent. He’s a good top-line RW or a great 2nd line RW/C now at just 25. In a vacuum you take the 25 year old top-line guy over the 22 year old potential top-pair guy 9/10 times. That said, if Necas and Carolina can’t reach an extension then this type of deal could make sense as a base. Teams would be lining up for Necas across the league though because he has a unique offensive skill-set that many teams lack.

Who in here argued he's a top pair d-man right now? He's a top 4 who's currently playing on our top pair and likely has top pair potential long term.

I'd maybe be interested in Necas, but while he's super talented I often see Canes fans concerns of his consistency, d-play, and disappearing in the playoffs. Not to mention he likely needs a big deal probably around 7-8m which again, Canes fans don't seem keen on giving him. No sense in moving our best young d-man for a guy like that.

 

[jfhabs]

If you only read the trade boards, you’d think guhle is the single highest valued player in the league outside of Mcdavid and bedard

In this very thread the OP adds to Guhle for RFA Necas, let alone McDavid... What the hell are you talking about.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Can you read?

What do you think Guhle’s potential is?

Yikes. Done with you. I have no idea what Guhle's potential is. I'm asking what caliber player he is now.

If you want to find analytics, go ahead, but right now Guhle is playing a top pairing role, RD with Matheson in Montreal, and is generally seen as a top-4 lock for the next decade or so.

I think the first person to say anything or anyone "sucks" should take the blame when discussion go sideways.

Playing top pairing and BEING top pairing caliber are two different things. Not saying he sucks, and clearly he is a young player with a lot of talent. I will fully admit to not being the most up to date on all aspects of Kaiden Guhle but I haven't heard him called a top pairing caliber player by anyone outside of this thread and nothing on the simple stats suggest he is playing at that level.

I'd say his play more so resembles a No3 but we have him playing RD despite being a lefty. Is 6'3, just turned 22, and skates like the wind.

He is on trajectory to be something resembling Noah Hanifin if I had to guess.

Skates like the wind is kind of the only thing in there that relates to his current play. Projections... fine, he could be... well anything. Hanifin does seem like a decent comp. I think for a lot of us Canes fans we see in Hanifin a capable but somewhat of a safe, vanilla player. Every team absolutely takes him on their roster and he's probably fine as a 2 as long as you have a real good no. 1.

I guess it depends on what is meant by top-pair D-man level. If I were to make the analytical case for Guhle, it would be the same one as for Seider. Both play incredibly difficult competition 5v5 (among the toughest QoC in the league) and are either close to or better in those minutes relative to the rest of their team. Seider is definitely better with the puck on his stick, but its the same situation where the quality of the team and usage doesn't capture the quality of the player the way the eye test does. Guhle is playing top pair minutes, and not easy ones. He's been reasonably effective in them. Does that make him a top-pair D-man? I don't think so, but he just turned 22 so I'm comfortable in betting he'll get there.

I don't particularly think a Guhle for Necas based swap makes sense for either team. Montreal can't really give Necas the minutes to make him as effective as he is in Carolina and can't really afford to move Guhle right now (unless they're crazy confident that guys like Reinbacher and Hutson will hit the ground running - which seems like a stretch). Carolina doesn't really need a LD this minute and probably want someone more proven in a Necas deal.

Habs fans are absurd to argue that Guhle is a top pair dman just because he plays on a bottom-3 d core in the league. Is Cam Fowler a #1? Is Matheson? Is Alex Vlasic a top-pair guy too? This reasoning is just silly and not persuasive at all. Guhle is a #3/4 on a contender, and I like him and think he has #2 upside.

I think Hanifin is a great comparable as a 2nd pairing guy at 22 who could be a top-pairing LD on a good team in the right circumstances in a few years. Great skater, good size, very good but not elite defensively, good puck mover, and good but not super high-end offensively.

But from my neutral perspective Habs fans are just underrating Necas so much here and are crazy to turn down Guhle for Necas one-for-one without a second thought. Necas is like Nik Ehlers but younger and can also be a C. Amazing offensive talent. He’s a good top-line RW or a great 2nd line RW/C now at just 25. In a vacuum you take the 25 year old top-line guy over the 22 year old potential top-pair guy 9/10 times. That said, if Necas and Carolina can’t reach an extension then this type of deal could make sense as a base. Teams would be lining up for Necas across the league though because he has a unique offensive skill-set that many teams lack.

Thank you for these posts. Sums up about what I was thinking.

Saying a top-pair 22 year old D who can play either side sucks is kind of harsh.

Who in here argued he's a top pair d-man right now? He's a top 4 who's currently playing on our top pair and likely has top pair potential long term.

The post I'm quoting right above ^^^

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Who in here argued he's a top pair d-man right now? He's a top 4 who's currently playing on our top pair and likely has top pair potential long term.

I'd maybe be interested in Necas, but while he's super talented I often see Canes fans concerns of his consistency, d-play, and disappearing in the playoffs. Not to mention he likely needs a big deal probably around 7-8m which again, Canes fans don't seem keen on giving him. No sense in moving our best young d-man for a guy like that.

Multiple posters have, like pth2. That’s what I was disputing. But I agree with you completely that he’s top-4 now and has clear #2 potential.

And I get those concerns about Necas. I think in a vacuum he still has more value as an established 60-70 pt top-line winger who can also play C, but I even said this would be fair value-wise as a base. I can see the hesitation from Montreal’s side too if the fit isn’t right, I’m just talking about value.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Both teams say no which means the value of them is closer than some on both sides want to admit imo

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Multiple posters have, like pth2. That’s what I was disputing. But I agree with you completely that he’s top-4 now and has clear #2 potential.

And I get those concerns about Necas. I think in a vacuum he still has more value as an established 60-70 pt top-line winger who can also play C, but I even said this would be fair value-wise as a base. I can see the hesitation from Montreal’s side too if the fit isn’t right, I’m just talking about value.

I wouldn't push the narrative that Necas can play C effectively at the NHL level. He takes draws occasionally but isn't particularly good at it and I don't think anything in his game resembles what you would want in a C for the most part. He is a racehorse that likes the puck on his stick and creates space on his own and loves to shoot. He doesn't probably use his teammates as much as one would like and sometimes his creativity can lead to breakdowns and scoring chances the other way.

 

[jfhabs]

How much is Necas willing to sign for?
Hertl just got traded for 2 x late firsts at 6M for 7 years...

Not sure I'd be willing to give that much value and pay him over 8M. Not saying he's not worth it in a vacuum, but perhaps the Habs are better to stay path and keep drafting talent as oppose to try and short cut with a trade like that one.

I think the trade proposition could make sense for both teams depending on the teams strategies going forward with their other picks/prospects/FAs. Interesting proposal ...

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I wouldn't push the narrative that Necas can play C effectively at the NHL level. He takes draws occasionally but isn't particularly good at it and I don't think anything in his game resembles what you would want in a C for the most part. He is a racehorse that likes the puck on his stick and creates space on his own and loves to shoot. He doesn't probably use his teammates as much as one would like and sometimes his creativity can lead to breakdowns and scoring chances the other way.

Fair point, I appreciate some rationale analysis in this thread for once lol. As a Flames fan starving for any dynamic offensive player who actually wants the puck on his stick, he’d probably still be the best C on our roster even if he’s better suited on the wing and has all those deficiencies you mentioned.

But that’s definitely a Flames-specific problem and I can see why ideally he stays at RW. Also, am I imagining this or did he recently say he wanted to try C again? I could’ve sworn there was a report that said something to that effect.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

How much is Necas willing to sign for?
Hertl just got traded for 2 x late firsts at 6M for 7 years...

Not sure I'd be willing to give that much value and pay him over 8M. Not saying he's not worth it in a vacuum, but perhaps the Habs are better to stay path and keep drafting talent as oppose to try and short cut with a trade like that one.

I think the trade proposition could make sense for both teams depending on the teams strategies going forward with their other picks/prospects/FAs. Interesting proposal ...

He's not worth $8AAV. $7AAV should be the absolute max ceiling on any deal to be honest. Svech makes $7.75 AAV or something like that so Necas should be coming in a million less. Canes are probably trying to get him at $6AAV or something like that which would be nice but too low on a long term deal.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Guhle is a non-starter for Necas. I would be interested in Necas if the price is right but if the ask start with Guhle, Reinbacher, Suzuki or Slafs or its a deal breaker for Carolina then so be it.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Guhle is a non-starter for Necas. I would be interested in Necas if the price is right but if the ask start with Guhle, Reinbacher, Suzuki or Slafs or its a deal breaker for Carolina then so be it.

What else would we possibly be interested in?

I guess Caulfield but that is a swap that really doesn't make any sense. To be honest, MTL and CAR don't really seem like good trading partners based on team arc and roster configuration.

 

[Baksfamous112]

What else would we possibly be interested in?

I guess Caulfield but that is a swap that really doesn't make any sense. To be honest, MTL and CAR don't really seem like good trading partners based on team arc and roster configuration.

Montreal has plenty of young D with top 4 potential; Xhekaj, Mailloux, Harris and a few good forward prospects in Beck or Roy (for example). We also hold 4x first round picks in the next two drafts with one most likely going to be a top 10.

My guess is Carolina wouldn’t have the money to sign Necas to a long term deal which means they would be looking for NHL-ready or close to being NHL ready prospects. Montreal has plenty of those assets.

 

[MXD]

I saw where Verbeek wants the Ducks to compete for a playoff spot next season. He made those comments at a season ticket holder event. He is not trading Zegras if the plan is to put a competitive team on the ice. The Montreal people will not be happy. I heard Eric Engels on Marek's show a few weeks ago say the Montreal brass is targeting Zegras in a trade this summer. Montreal needs another top forward to give them two quality scoring lines. Zegras needs to stay healthy for the Ducks to be a better team.


Give to get. This isn't charity.

... What does that have to do with the thread at hand?

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I wouldn't rule out the futures route. (1) Teams in competitive windows have done it in comparable situations. J. Staal, Ryan, Schneider, Drouin and Fiala are examples. (2) The Canes haven't been afraid of going that route. Not at the level of Necas, but Skinner, Faulk, Nedeljkovic, Bean and DeAngelo were dealt outside of hockey trades under this management group.

Carolina is now a desirable place to play. That opens the door to fill gaps in free agency (like Orlov) and via trade for players hunting a cup (like Burns).

 

[Captain97]

What else would we possibly be interested in?

I guess Caulfield but that is a swap that really doesn't make any sense. To be honest, MTL and CAR don't really seem like good trading partners based on team arc and roster configuration.

I could see potentially something around the Habs 1st this year post lottery + one of our solid but not top tier RHD.

Habs first in the 6-8 Range + Barron + B forward prospect

For Necas

 

[General Fanager]

What part don’t you agree with?

And because Carolina likely isn’t gonna be looking for a package of picks for Necas given that they’re a contending team and he’s a core top-6 piece. If Necas is moved it’ll probably be for an established top-pair RD or similar C/RW, or if not a high-potential NHL ready top-4 guy like Guhle.

Unless you’re giving your top-10 first this year and likely next, which is more valuable than just Guhle

How did I disregard what I said? Did you guys actually read my post? I said Guhle is not yet a top-pairing dman but projects as a #2. That’s pretty high praise lol. And I said Necas has more value in a vacuum but that with a potential contract dispute this could be a solid base value-wise. I’m a neutral fan, I don’t get why you guys are so combative here

Well you said Hab fans are crazy to not want to deal Guhle for Necas. I disagree, I would rather keep the top pairing Dman of the Habs future. Is Guhle a #1 right now, maybe not but I believe the potential for him to be a top pairing guy for a long time is there. I dont want another Sergachev situation.

Also I could care less what Carolina want in return for Necas. The Habs can offer picks and another LD who can play. If they pass thats fine, Im sure other teams would want futures. Necas isnt so special The Habs need to do anything to get. They can take the same package to offer it around and get another Dach type deal....no worries.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Montreal has plenty of young D with top 4 potential; Xhekaj, Mailloux, Harris and a few good forward prospects in Beck or Roy (for example). We also hold 4x first round picks in the next two drafts with one most likely going to be a top 10.

My guess is Carolina wouldn’t have the money to sign Necas to a long term deal which means they would be looking for NHL-ready or close to being NHL ready prospects. Montreal has plenty of those assets.

I wouldn't rule out the futures route. (1) Teams in competitive windows have done it in comparable situations. J. Staal, Ryan, Schneider, Drouin and Fiala are examples. (2) The Canes haven't been afraid of going that route. Not at the level of Necas, but Skinner, Faulk, Nedeljkovic, Bean and DeAngelo were dealt outside of hockey trades under this management group.

Carolina is now a desirable place to play. That opens the door to fill gaps in free agency (like Orlov) and via trade for players hunting a cup (like Burns).

I could see potentially something around the Habs 1st this year post lottery + one of our solid but not top tier RHD.

Habs first in the 6-8 Range + Barron + B forward prospect

For Necas

It just always feels like if Necas was going to get traded it was going to be for a bigger name and Canes would be adding. We don't have any players who have the same skillset as Necas and what he is good/great at is difficult to find. I don't see Canes trading Necas for a futures package unless there is absolutely no other option.

Seems unlikely that the contract he would want is so big of a gap from what the Canes are offering. Like he still is an RFA. I don't see any team willing to pay him $8mil AAV but maybe I'm wrong. Somewhere in the $6.5-7 AAV range should get it done imo.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Well you said Hab fans are crazy to not want to deal Guhle for Necas. I disagree, I would rather keep the top pairing Dman of the Habs future. Is Guhle a #1 right now, maybe not but I believe the potential for him to be a top pairing guy for a long time is there. I dont want another Sergachev situation.

Also I could care less what Carolina want in return for Necas. The Habs can offer picks and another LD who can play. If they pass thats fine, Im sure other teams would want futures. Necas isnt so special The Habs need to do anything to get. They can take the same package to offer it around and get another Dach type deal....no worries.

I mean, if you think whatever you would offer to get another 'Dach' type player is going to get you someone of Necas' caliber then I think you're in for some real disappointment. Necas has proven significantly more at the NHL level so it would be unlikely to be able to get a player like him for the same type of package.

 

[dirtydanglez]

no way the canes do that. necas was rumored to be available for a big fish like pettersson not for this

 

[cwede]

OP has Habs adding? then Canes don't really value Guhl
OP is easy no for Habs

1 for 1 would be a choice worth deliberating

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Well you said Hab fans are crazy to not want to deal Guhle for Necas. I disagree, I would rather keep the top pairing Dman of the Habs future. Is Guhle a #1 right now, maybe not but I believe the potential for him to be a top pairing guy for a long time is there. I dont want another Sergachev situation.

Also I could care less what Carolina want in return for Necas. The Habs can offer picks and another LD who can play. If they pass thats fine, Im sure other teams would want futures. Necas isnt so special The Habs need to do anything to get. They can take the same package to offer it around and get another Dach type deal....no worries.

All I said was Habs fans would be crazy to turn that down 1 for 1 without a second thought. I think it's a solid base for a win-win trade if you guys want a high-end offensive piece and Carolina can't agree on an extension with Necas. I get that it's relatively close in value and positional needs come into play, but from my neutral perspective Montreal wins that 1 for 1 swap. Especially with Hutson and Reinbacher in the pipeline along with some other interesting young D already on the roster. And if the Habs draft another D with your 1st this year, I think playmaking forwards are your biggest need. If you had just said it's fair value but not a fit, that's fair. But saying Guhle is definitely the more valuable asset is not true.

And lol at thinking Guhle "might not" be a #1 right now. He's not even close. I agree top-pairing potential but saying he'd even be a good #2 on a playoff team is a massive exxaggeration. I also hate the classic 'i could care less about what the other team wants' perspective. Like why post in a trade value thread if you're just gonna make lazy statements like that that disregard the needs of the other team. You could've just said I don't think there's a fit if Carolina wants a legit piece that we aren't willing to offer.