Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

[Danny46]

Brodeur was good but not the legend that his 3 Stanley Cup titles and GAA numbers make him to be... It is no coincidence that he never won another cup without Daneyko, Stevens and Niedermayer, that defence was the real reason of his success. The number of shots at his net was so low compared to Belfour, Hasek and Roy. I would take this 3 over him in a beat, yes Belfour too, he was a little bit crazy but once he got his head straight he was probably the best goalie in the NHL at Clutch time in those 2 seasons that the Stars went to the finals. Especially in 2000 when the Stars were injury plagued and he carried the team to the finals, and the year before his battle with Hasek was stuff of legends, both guys game 6 perfomances was fantastic.

Brodeur, I saw him having good games but I never felt that he was the reason for the Devils success, Cujo eliminating Dallas and Colorado in 1997 and 1998 impressed me more than Brodeur in his entire career. Brodeur is not even a top 10 goalie of all time in my opinion.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Brodeur was good but not the legend that his 3 Stanley Cup titles and GAA numbers make him to be... It is no coincidence that he never won another cup without Daneyko, Stevens and Niedermayer, that defence was the real reason of his success. The number of shots at his net was so low compared to Belfour, Hasek and Roy. I would take this 3 over him in a beat, yes Belfour too, he was a little bit crazy but once he got his head straight he was probably the best goalie in the NHL at Clutch time in those 2 seasons that the Stars went to the finals. Especially in 2000 when the Stars were injury plagued and he carried the team to the finals, and the year before his battle with Hasek was stuff of legends, both guys game 6 perfomances was fantastic.

Brodeur, I saw him having good games but I never felt that he was the reason for the Devils success, Cujo eliminating Dallas and Colorado in 1997 and 1998 impressed me more than Brodeur in his entire career. Brodeur is not even a top 10 goalie of all time in my opinion.

All the way to the finals in 2012 with a particularly weak defense. And let's not pretend that Roy was playing behind scrub defensemen. Let's also not pretend that Roy and Belfour played behind weak defenses.

A good goalie makes a good defense and a good defense makes a good goalie. It goes both ways.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I feel like it's 2005 again

 

[chaosrevolver]

He's overrated by some who think he is undoubtedly the greatest goaltender of all-time, but he is still probably one of the best six or seven goalies to ever play the game.

I would also take Hasek and Roy over him but I think you underrate Brodeur a little too much due to the team he played for. He was still a fantastic goalie who is deserving of legendary status.

Did he have to be as good as Hasek? Probably not. With that being said, his accomplishments are up there with the best of all-time, and it's not cause of his team entirely.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

One thing that needs to be considered in regards to Brodeur's save percentage is that New Jersey's shot counter was by far the stingiest in the league for a majority of Brodeur's tenure there.

If he had a league average shot counter his save percentage would have gone up to around .920.

 

[Edmonton East]

Brodeur was good but not the legend that his 3 Stanley Cup titles and GAA numbers make him to be... It is no coincidence that he never won another cup without Daneyko, Stevens and Niedermayer, that defence was the real reason of his success. The number of shots at his net was so low compared to Belfour, Hasek and Roy. I would take this 3 over him in a beat, yes Belfour too, he was a little bit crazy but once he got his head straight he was probably the best goalie in the NHL at Clutch time in those 2 seasons that the Stars went to the finals. Especially in 2000 when the Stars were injury plagued and he carried the team to the finals, and the year before his battle with Hasek was stuff of legends, both guys game 6 perfomances was fantastic.

Brodeur, I saw him having good games but I never felt that he was the reason for the Devils success, Cujo eliminating Dallas and Colorado in 1997 and 1998 impressed me more than Brodeur in his entire career. Brodeur is not even a top 10 goalie of all time in my opinion.

The fact that you use Stevens, Nieds, and.....Daneyko as the reason for Brodeur's success is hysterical. Seriously, what in the world are you talking about? I love Daneyko, but we're gonna sit here an act like a 32 year old+ middle pair dman was a key reason for Marty's success? This is just too funny.

To say Marty is the defacto #1 goalie all time is stupid.
To say Marty is not a top 10 goalie all time is stupid.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brutal first post. Almost none of that is agreeable in any way.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Brodeur was good but not the legend that his 3 Stanley Cup titles and GAA numbers make him to be... It is no coincidence that he never won another cup without Daneyko, Stevens and Niedermayer, that defence was the real reason of his success.

He dragged them to the SCF in 2012 when most people didn't expect them to get past the second round

The number of shots at his net was so low compared to Belfour, Hasek and Roy. I would take this 3 over him in a beat, yes Belfour too, he was a little bit crazy but once he got his head straight he was probably the best goalie in the NHL at Clutch time in those 2 seasons that the Stars went to the finals. Especially in 2000 when the Stars were injury plagued and he carried the team to the finals, and the year before his battle with Hasek was stuff of legends, both guys game 6 perfomances was fantastic.

Shots against per game
Brodeur: 25.05
Belfour: 25.70
Roy: 25.22
Hasek: 27.51

Brodeur, I saw him having good games but I never felt that he was the reason for the Devils success, Cujo eliminating Dallas and Colorado in 1997 and 1998 impressed me more than Brodeur in his entire career. Brodeur is not even a top 10 goalie of all time in my opinion.

How about Brodeur holding the offensive powerhouse Detroit Red Wings to 7 goals in four games in the 1995 SCF? How about letting in only 9 goals in a six game series against the reigning Stanley Cup Champions in 2000? How about setting the record for most shutouts in one playoff run in 2003, which included 3 in the SCF as well a the Cup winning game? How about out dueling JSG, who was on a God-like run that year (19 goals against in 7 games for JSG vs. 15 for Brodeur)?

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Yeah, he of .917 save% really "dragged his team to the Finals." That Devils squad was a team effort with no real individual standouts. Before running into LA, when they needed someone to do a thing, someone did that thing.

 

[Edmonton East]

Yeah, he of .917 save% really "dragged his team to the Finals." That Devils squad was a team effort with no real individual standouts. Before running into LA, when they needed someone to do a thing, someone did that thing.

Have to agree with this. In the same breath though, we obviously aren't going to start evaluating his entire career based on his twilight years.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

He had a .923 sv% going into the SCF. Carrying was the wrong word there, but he wasn't bad at all

 

[Doctor No]

He had a .923 sv% going into the SCF. Carrying was the wrong word there, but he wasn't bad at all

He struggled against Florida:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/logs/NJD2011.html

But after that, it'd be hard to say that he hurt his team in any single game until the Finals.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

He had a .923 sv% going into the SCF. Carrying was the wrong word there, but he wasn't bad at all

I'll agree with this. TDMM has a good post about him probably winning the Smythe if the Devils win the Cup and its impact on his legacy a while back.

Bummer that Devils team disintegrated after that run.

 

[The Panther]

Hmm, let's see... the guy who led the NHL in wins 9 times; won three Stanley Cups (5 Finals' appearances); 1st/2nd-team All Star 7 times while competing with Hasek, Roy, Belfour; 4 Vezina Trophies (+ 3 more top-two finishes; 6 more top-three; 12-straight seasons in top-5); Olympic gold-medalist; 125 shutouts and 695 career wins (+113 in the playoffs).




So... nope, not overrated.




End thread.

 

[The Pale King]

Watching Jon "Systems" Quick the past 4-5 seasons has given me a new appreciation for Brodeur. Both guys seem to get similar criticisms. Neither guy is going to blow you out of the water with their SV%, but when you're getting 18-25 shots a game, night in night out, it only takes an odd man rush here or there to sink you back to league average SV%. Not putting JQ in Brodeurs company yet, just something I noticed.

An off-topic note that Quick tied Brimsek and Beezer for most shutouts by an American born goalie with his 40th last night. Those were system shutouts though, so there's an asterix.

 

[The Panther]

Watching Jon "Systems" Quick the past 4-5 seasons has given me a new appreciation for Brodeur. Both guys seem to get similar criticisms. Neither guy is going to blow you out of the water with their SV%, but when you're getting 18-25 shots a game, night in night out, it only takes an odd man rush here or there to sink you back to league average SV%.

That's right. Save-percentage doesn't really convince me of anything in itself (not that there's anything wrong with Brodeur's save percentages, which are outstanding). The only exception would be a total outlier situation, as when Hasek had the best save-percentage for six consecutive years -- that's just ridiculous, and, in conjunction with other supporting stats, clearly demonstrates his awesomeness.

What does convince me is consistent, year-in and year-out greatness, and being able to take the pressure without exploding, while getting it done in RS, playoffs, international, etc.

Brodeur was awesome.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Hmm, let's see... the guy who led the NHL in wins 9 times; won three Stanley Cups (5 Finals' appearances); 1st/2nd-team All Star 7 times while competing with Hasek, Roy, Belfour; 4 Vezina Trophies (+ 3 more top-two finishes; 6 more top-three; 12-straight seasons in top-5); Olympic gold-medalist; 125 shutouts and 695 career wins (+113 in the playoffs).




So... nope, not overrated.




End thread.

If you're going to decide whether someone is overrated, wouldn't you need both their accomplishments *and* how they're being rated? (This is a rhetorical question).

By the way, please don't "end threads". Especially with a post like that.

 

[The Panther]

If you're going to decide whether someone is overrated, wouldn't you need both their accomplishments *and* how they're being rated? (This is a rhetorical question).

Certainly a good question, but honestly the answer is "not really" in Brodeur's particular case. If someone wants to argue that Brodeur is the greatest goalie in NHL history (I don't agree with that, btw), I still wouldn't say that makes him 'over-rated'. In other words, while it's possible to over-rate most successful goaltenders, I can't really see how we can over-rate someone with Brodeur's incredible accomplishments, which is why I listed some of them in my previous post.

By contrast, if someone wanted to argue that Darren Pang is the greatest goaltender in NHL history, I would have to say that Pang is being over-rated.

By the way, please don't "end threads". Especially with a post like that.

Fortunately, I'm not a moderator, so I can't end threads. My "end" was a rhetorical way of repeating my thesis, which is that a player of Brodeur's accomplishments cannot really be over-rated.

(I don't know what you mean by "a post like that", however.)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hmm, let's see... the guy who led the NHL in wins 9 times; won three Stanley Cups (5 Finals' appearances); 1st/2nd-team All Star 7 times while competing with Hasek, Roy, Belfour; 4 Vezina Trophies (+ 3 more top-two finishes; 6 more top-three; 12-straight seasons in top-5); Olympic gold-medalist; 125 shutouts and 695 career wins (+113 in the playoffs).

Well... that right there tells me he was probably a little overrated on a year-to-year basis, because I thought he was a top-three goalie in a season less often than the voters did (1997, 1998, 2007, 2008?). Amazing longevity, but he got a lot more respect from voters at times than I believe was warranted.

 

[sr edler]

Guy liked to play a lot. Must have had an amazing physique.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I still never quite grasped how people could so wholeheartedly disregard GAA but put all their chips into save pct. - it always struck me as a fundamental misunderstanding. So much weight in one category and just about none in the other, hard to believe.

 

[Hector Salamanca]

brodeur was just a sick pro. playing that much game at the more difficult position .. man. i understand people who says hasek or wtv. prime hasek was better than prime brodeur.

70 something games a year for 15 years and be top 5 in the league in probably 14 of them. that f***ing rediculous.

 

[gorangers0525]

He's a top 5 goalie of all time, and I hate the guy lol.

 

[bobholly39]

brodeur was just a sick pro. playing that much game at the more difficult position .. man. i understand people who says hasek or wtv. prime hasek was better than prime brodeur.

70 something games a year for 15 years and be top 5 in the league in probably 14 of them. that f***ing rediculous.

I know i don't think Brodeur gets given enough credit for his longevity.

When you talk about all-time goalies, Roy and Hasek are probably both above Brodeur by most. and i don't even necessarily disagree with that. But I don't think Roy nor Hasek could have had the longevity Brodeur had.

There's something to be said about reamining the #1 goalie for the same franchise for 20 or so years. Hasek moved around a lot and didn't crack the NHL as early. Roy - actually lost his spot early on with the habs, then got traded, and retired early.

 

[seventieslord]

I still never quite grasped how people could so wholeheartedly disregard GAA but put all their chips into save pct. - it always struck me as a fundamental misunderstanding. So much weight in one category and just about none in the other, hard to believe.

Because mathematically it makes perfect sense.

GAA is just error rate (1 - sv%) times shots against per game.

Looking at it that way, it should be clear it's just a rehashing of save percentage itself, made even less useful (regardless of how useful one considers sv% to begin with)