Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

[BM67]

Voting Share

1985-86 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy T9th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1986-87 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 10th 2 (0-0-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 4th 29 (1-4-12)
1987-88 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 8th 8 (0-2-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 64 (2-15-9)
1988-89 - HART: Patrick Roy 4th 2 (0-0-2); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 87 (15-3-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 291 (52-10-1)
1989-90 - HART: Patrick Roy T5th-6th 8 (0-1-5); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 91 (15-5-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 304 (59-3-0)
1990-91 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 44 (1-12-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 144 (1-43-0)
1991-92 - HART: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (1-27-19); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 95 (17-3-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 303 (54-11-0)
1992-93 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 6th 3 (0-1-0); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 7th 2 (0-0-2)
1993-94 - HART: Dominik Hasek 2nd 86 (6-15-11); Patrick Roy 5th 26 (3-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 99 (15-8-0); Patrick Roy 3rd 34 (3-3-10); Martin Brodeur T7th-8th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 224 (40-6-6); Patrick Roy 3rd 86 (7-13-12); Martin Brodeur 6th 5 (0-1-2)
1994-95 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 23 (3-2-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 104 (17-6-1); Martin Brodeur T8th-9th 7 (0-2-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (14-1-0) (Only 15 votes for Hart and All-star teams, 26 for Vezina.)
1995-96 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 9 (0-0-1-1-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 4th 31 (4-3-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 9 (1-1-1); Patrick Roy 9th 5 (1-0-0); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 84 (12-6-6); Dominik Hasek 7th 8 (0-2-2); Patrick Roy T8th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1996-97 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 519 (50-2-1-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (0-7-6-11-3); Patrick Roy 8th 31 (0-2-2-0-7); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 120 (22-3-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 73 (3-18-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 25 (1-3-11); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 237 (40-12-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 174 (13-35-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 47 (0-5-32)
1997-98 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 499 (43-7-4-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (1-5-7-8-11); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 126 (24-2-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 57 (2-14-5); Patrick Roy 5th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 259 (50-3-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 159 (3-47-3); Patrick Roy 6th 1 (0-0-1)
1998-99 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 172 (4-10-8-5-7); Martin Brodeur T16th-17th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (8-10-3); Martin Brodeur 4th 17 (1-1-9); Patrick Roy T8th-9th 1 (0-0-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 220 (35-13-6); Martin Brodeur 6th 21 (3-0-6); Patrick Roy 8th 4 (0-1-1)
1999-2000 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 6 (0-0-0-2-1-3); Dominik Hasek T17th-20th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 5th 8 (0-1-5); Patrick Roy 7th 5 (0-1-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 48 (2-9-11);
2000-01 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 64 (0-4-4-4-4); Dominik Hasek, BUF 8th 42 (0-3-2-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 85 (9-12-4); Martin Brodeur 3rd 42 (7-2-1); Patrick Roy 5th 19 (2-1-6); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 160 (19-18-11); Martin Brodeur 3rd 143 (18-15-8); Patrick Roy 4th 46 (3-7-10)
2001-02 - HART: Patrick Roy 3rd 283 (8-15-12-11-5); (Hasek and Brodeur are no better than 11th with 10 points.); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (12-15-0); Martin Brodeur 5th 7 (1-0-2); Dominik Hasek 6th 6 (0-1-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 226 (30-24-4); Dominik Hasek 4th 31 (1-4-14); Martin Brodeur 5th 6 (0-1-3)
2002-03 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 311 (14-12-11-10-2); Patrick Roy 12th 10 (1-0-0-0-0); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 131 (24-3-2); Patrick Roy 4th 17 (1-2-6); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 243 (39-14-6); Patrick Roy 6th 12 (1-1-4)
2003-04 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 213 (2-14-11-11-7); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 89 (15-4-2); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 307 (39-33-13)
2005-06 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 22 (0-0-0-6-4); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 2nd 48 (2-10-8); Dominik Hasek T7th-8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 232 (6-59-25); Dominik Hasek 7th 20 (0-5-5)
2006-07 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 763 (21-45-39-12-7); Dominik Hasek T22nd-26th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 122 (16-14-0); Dominik Hasek 5th 5 (0-0-5); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 607 (91-50-2); Dominik Hasek 3rd 58 (0-3-49)
2007-08 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 239 (1-8-19-21-15); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 113 (15-12-2); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 475 (56-61-12)
2008-09 - ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 8th 7 (1-0-2)
2009-10 - HART: Martin Brodeur 8th 16 (0-0-2-0-6); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 3rd 32 (1-6-9); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 136 (6-16-58)

Here is a table showing vote share, % of a unanimous vote, for the Hart/Vezina/All-star team for Roy, Hasek and Brodeur.

If a unanimous Vezina win would be 105 points, then 1 point would be 0.95 and 87 points would be 82.86.

Year|Roy H|Hasek H|Brodeur H|Roy V|Hasek V|Brodeur V|Roy A|Hasek A|Brodeur A
1985-86|0|0|0|0.0095|0|0|0|0|0
1986-87|0|0|0|01.9|0|0|10.74|0|0
1987-88|0|0|0|7.62|0|0|20.32|0|0
1988-89|0.63|0|0|82.86|0|0|92.38|0|0
1989-90|2.54|0|0|86.67|0|0|96.51|0|0
1990-91|0|0|0|41.9|0|0|43.64|0|0
1991-92|30.43|0|0|86.36|0|0|93.23|0|0
1992-93|0|0|0|2.5|0|0|0.8|0|0
1993-94|9.63|31.85|0|26.15|76.15|3.85|31.85|82.96|1.85
1994-95|0|30.67|0|0|80|5.38|0|97.33|0
1995-96|0|0|1.67|3.85|6.92|23.85|0.38|3.02|31.7
1996-97|5.74|96.11|21.3|19.23|92.31|56.15|17.74|89.43|65.66
1997-98|0|92.41|21.3|3.85|96.92|43.85|0.38|97.74|60
1998-99|0|30.71|0.18|0.74|54.07|12.59|1.43|78.57|7.5
1999-00|0|0.17|1.03|3.57|2.86|5.71|0|0|16.84
2000-01|0|6.77|10.32|12.67|56.67|28|15.08|52.46|46.89
2001-02|45.65|*|*|70|4|4.67|75.33|10.33|2
2002-03|1.61|0|50.16|11.33|0|87.33|4|0|81
2003-04|0|0|20.29|0|0|59.33|0|0|59.04
2005-06|0|0|1.72|0|2.67|32|0|3.15|36.54
2006-07|0|0.07|53.36|0|3.33|81.33|0|8.11|84.9
2007-08|0|0|17.84|0|0|75.33|0|0|71.43
2008-09|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1.07
2009-10|0|0|1.2|0|0|21.33|0|0|20.76
Total|96.23|288.76|200.37|462.15|475.9|540.7|503.81|523.1|587.18

* In 2001-02 neither Hasek or Brodeur were in the top 10, but could have received up to 10 points in voting for a 1.61 share.

I decided to look at this with a twist, only counting the 1st place votes.

Year|H Votes|Roy H|Hasek H|Brodeur H|V Votes|Roy V|Hasek V|Brodeur V|AS Votes|Roy A|Hasek A|Brodeur A
1985-86|60|0|0|0|21|0|0|0|60|0|0|0
1986-87|54|0|0|0|21|0|0|0|54|1.85|0|0
1987-88|63|0|0|0|21|0|0|0|63|3.17|0|0
1988-89|63|0|0|0|21|71.43|0|0|63|82.54|0|0
1989-90|63|0|0|0|21|71.43|0|0|63|93.65|0|0
1990-91|66|0|0|0|21|4.76|0|0|66|1.52|0|0
1991-92|69|1.45|0|0|22|77.27|0|0|65|83.08|0|0
1992-93|50|0|0|0|24|0|0|0|50|0|0|0
1993-94|54|5.56|11.11|0|26|11.54|57.69|0|54|12.96|74.07|0
1994-95|15|0|20|0|26|0|65.38|0|15|0|93.33|0
1995-96|54|0|0|0|26|3.85|3.85|15.38|53|0|0|22.64
1996-97|54|0|92.59|0|26|3.85|84.62|11.54|53|0|75.47|24.53
1997-98|54|0|79.63|1.85|26|0|92.31|7.69|53|0|94.34|5.66
1998-99|56|0|7.14|0|27|0|29.63|3.7|56|0|62.5|5.36
1999-00|58|0|0|0|28|0|0|0|57|0|0|3.51
2000-01|62|0|0|0|30|6.67|30|23.33|61|4.92|31.15|29.51
2001-02|62|12.9|0|0|30|40|0|3.33|60|50|1.67|0
2002-03|62|1.61|0|22.58|30|3.33|0|80|60|1.67|0|65
2003-04|105|0|0|1.9|30|0|0|50|104|0|0|37.5
2005-06|129|0|0|0|30|0|0|6.67|127|0|0|4.72
2006-07|143|0|0|14.69|30|0|0|53.33|143|0|0|63.64
2007-08|134|0|0|0.75|30|0|0|50|133|0|0|42.11
2008-09|133|0|0|0|30|0|0|0|131|0|0|0.76
2009-10|133|0|0|0|30|0|0|3.33|131|0|0|4.58
Total|-|21.52|210.47|41.77|-|294.13|363.48|308.3|-|335.36|432.53|309.52

 

[MJB Devils23*]

By watching Devils games and then comparing them to other NHL games.

That would be how I know.

Obviously the best way to see this kind of thing is to watch. I completely disagree with you if you think he faced easier shots. I watch plenty of other teams' games, and honestly there is no real noticeable difference between shot quality from game to game. It all evens out. Goalies have easy games, and they have hard games. Not just Brodeur.

 

[MJB Devils23*]

One of the problems is that it's hard to gauge whether it's overcounting, or if it is a defensive-oriented team making the most of faceoffs and line matches, and other teams willing to play slower away. For example, three of the top 4 teams listed here were well known for their defensive systems.

I think there probably is undercounting in NJ. The home/away split is of such a magnitude that it implies systematic undercounting. The question is how much of it is the scorers, and how much of it is the Devils. Unless some major research goes into it, one simply can't tell.

That kind of disparity is far too big for it to fall solely on the team's defensive structure.

 

[GuineaPig]

That kind of disparity is far too big for it to fall solely on the team's defensive structure.

I would tend to agree. The problem is, we don't know how much each is responsible for.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

90s era Devils had a reputation for playing better defensively on the road. Meaning they would play a perfect "boring" trap on the road because there was no pressure to entertain fans.

 

[C77]

I think Patrick Roy was better than Brodeur but that doesn't mean Marty is overrated.

 

[BM67]

The Devils have been known for giving up fewer shots and taking fewer penalties than almost every team year in and year out for all of Brodeur's career. It's not as well known that they have also been at or near the bottom in number of faceoffs per game since the stat has been kept.

The question is one of how much credit is due Brodeur for any of these factors to the "Devils System".

A look at last few years Devils stats.

Taking the games where Brodeur played the whole game and comparing them to the games where he either didn't play or only played part of the game, and comparing the SOGF, SOGA, face-offs and PIM per game.

2010-11

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|47|29.38|25.32|50.13|9.04|B Home|23|30.00|23.70|50.26|8.04|B Road|24|28.79|26.88|50.00|10.00
Other|35|27.51|28.40|54.71|9.69|O Home|18|26.83|29.39|53.50|7.11|O Road|17|28.24|27.35|56.00|12.41

2009-10

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|70|29.84|27.00|51.71|10.47|B Home|39|28.54|25.33|50.97|10.33|B Road|31|31.48|29.10|52.65|10.65
Other|12|30.83|26.92|52.00|10.50|O Home|2|33.00|19.00|49.00|13.00|O Road|10|30.40|28.50|52.60|10.00

2008-09

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|28|35.14|29.68|55.03|14.75|B Home|14|34.00|29.57|55.71|13.64|B Road|14|36.29|29.79|54.36|15.86
Other|54|31.74|29.33|56.59|11.94|O Home|27|31.41|27.33|57.26|13.56|O Road|27|32.07|31.33|55.93|10.33

2007-08

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|73|29.04|27.44|52.03|11.78|B Home|39|29.10|26.46|52.00|11.41|B Road|34|28.97|28.56|52.06|12.21
Other|9|26.89|28.22|54.22|12.67|O Home|2|27.50|23.00|51.00|17.50|O Road|7|26.71|29.71|55.14|11.29

2006-07

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|76|28.74|28.28|52.50|9.45|B Home|38|27.79|26.00|53.16|9.82|B Road|38|29.68|30.55|51.84|9.08
Other|6|28.33|30.50|60.00|18.67|O Home|3|25.67|25.00|59.00|17.00|O Road|3|31.00|36.00|61.00|20.33

Total

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|294|29.79|27.43|52.06|10.71|B Home|153|29.22|25.93|52.10|10.44|B Road|141|30.41|29.05|52.01|11.01
Other|116|29.82|28.78|55.54|11.52|O Home|52|29.40|27.42|55.50|11.65|O Road|64|30.16|29.88|55.58|11.41

Certainly this is just a small snapshot, but it is interesting that the Devils do seem to do better in more than just SOGA with Brodeur in the nets. More SOGF in 4/5 seasons, fewer SOGA in 3/5, fewer faceoffs in 5/5, and fewer PIM in 4/5.

Keep in mind that this is all post lockout so far, so the trapezoid is in effect.

The fact that the Devils have both more shots for and against on the road says the under counting is still there in the new arena.

The one clear picture is that Brodeur has an impact on the number of faceoffs the Devils take in a game. Hard to say how this influences the game, but it clearly shows Brodeur does have an impact well beyond just stopping the puck.

 

[skywarp75]

Wins and Shutouts nobody will ever top his career. Hasek was a better goalie tho IMO.

 

[seventieslord]

The one clear picture is that Brodeur has an impact on the number of faceoffs the Devils take in a game. Hard to say how this influences the game, but it clearly shows Brodeur does have an impact well beyond just stopping the puck.

Interesting, has this been done for other top goalies to see if this is a usual effect?

 

[BM67]

Interesting, has this been done for other top goalies to see if this is a usual effect?

I haven't, and don't know of anybody else that has.

The faceoff stats them self are interesting.

The stats have been kept for 13 years. In those 13 years the Devils have been below the league average in faceoffs per team in all 13.

There have been no teams in the 6 years since the lockout that have taken as many as the average team did pre-lockout. Florida in 2005-06 came the closest. They took 5351 with the pre-lockout average being 5363.9.

Carolina, with 5018 in 2007-08, are the only team to have taken 5000+ faceoffs in the last 4 seasons.

Here are the faceoffs taken/game rate post-lockout for all 30 teams.

Team|FO Avg
Washington|60.16
Carolina|60.13
Winnipeg|59.75
Florida|59.57
Philadelphia|59.44
Nashville|59.03
Boston|59.01
Toronto|58.93
Buffalo|58.77
Islanders|58.52
Calgary|58.50
Montreal|58.37
Pittsburgh|58.21
Tampa Bay|58.12
Phoenix|58.02
Vancouver|57.95
Average|57.91
St. Louis|57.89
Ottawa|57.78
Columbus|57.61
Detroit|57.61
Colorado|57.35
Edmonton|57.31
Minnesota|57.23
Los Angeles|57.16
Anaheim|57.09
San Jose|56.36
Chicago|56.28
Dallas|55.74
Rangers|55.56
New Jersey|53.75

The gap from the Devils to the Rangers is 1.81. There are 8 teams closer to the Rangers than the Rangers are to the Devils. There are 11 teams closer to Washington than the Rangers are to the Devils. 25 teams are closer to average than the Rangers are to the Devils.

The Devils are 4.16 below the average. The rest of the league from Washington to the Rangers are only 4.6 apart. Chicago is closer to Washington than the Devils are to average.

 

[BM67]

Back to the EV/PP SV% equation.

2006-07 Brodeur: EV: 129 GA on 1758 SA; PP: 9 GA on 80 SA; PK: 33 GA on 344 SA

NJ spent 458:36 on the PK, we will raise that to the league leaders 762:02. 762:02/458:36 = 166.17%. PK SA go from 344 to 572. GA will go from 33 to 55.

NJ spent 617:43 on the PP, we will raise that to the league average 662:57. 662:57/617:43 = 107.32%. PP SA go from 80 to 86. GA will go from 9 to 10.

EV is a little more tricky, but I calculate that the changes in PP/PK time is equal to 1689:10 of the total 19304:49 NJ EV TOI. 17615:39/19304:49 = 91.25%. EV SA go from 1758 to 1605. GA will go from 129 to 118.

Total result is 12 more GA, GAA from 2.18 to 2.34, and 81 more SA (.852 SV%), with a drop in SV% of .0025.

T SA|T GA|T SV|T SV%|EV SA|EV GA|EV SV|EV SV%|PK SA|PK GA|PK SV|PK SV%|PP SA|PP GA|PP SV|PP SV%
2182|171|2011|.922|1758|129|1629|.927|344|33|311|.904|80|9|71|.888
2263|183|2080|.919|1605|118|1487|.926|572|55|517|.904|86|10|76|.884

That is a pretty big swing, but it is also taking NJ to the top of the PK TOI list, so it's about as large a swing as you can get.

Now for the shot under counting impact.

The league average SOG/60 for 2006-07: Home: 28.22 Road: 30.24 Dif: 2.02 or 7.16%.
Brodeur: Home: 25.47 Road: 30.30 Dif: 4.83 or 18.19%.
NHL 2010-11: Home: 29.15 Road: 30.88 Dif: 1.73 or 5.93%.

We'll take the 2.02 avg off Brodeur's 4.83 leaving 2.81, and then take off the difference between 10-11 and 06-07 of 0.29 for a final total of 2.52. We'll round down to 2 SOG/60 and drop the one home game where Brodeur only played half the game. This leaves 38 home game times 2 for 76 shots (It would be 77.5 shots if we used his 2325:27 playing time in the 38 games).

Now take the two totals from above and add 76 saves.

SA|GA|SV|SV%|SA|GA|SV|SV%|Dif
2182|171|2011|.922|2258|171|2087|.924|.0026
2263|183|2080|.919|2339|183|2156|.922|.0026

So a fairly conservative estimate of under counting has as large an impact as the max PK change made above (The 2nd .922 above is .0001 higher than the first). Giving NJ the average PK TOI would reduce the PK impact by about a 3rd.

Adding another 38 SOG for Brodeur's personal shot preventing skills would bump it to .923.

This of course leaves out any under/over counting for the other goalies, but with Brodeur at the far end of the under counting scale (Belfour is close by), every other goalie is being over counted by default compared to him, even if they aren't actually playing in an over counting arena.

 

[BM67]

The Devils have been known for giving up fewer shots and taking fewer penalties than almost every team year in and year out for all of Brodeur's career. It's not as well known that they have also been at or near the bottom in number of faceoffs per game since the stat has been kept.

The question is one of how much credit is due Brodeur for any of these factors to the "Devils System".

A look at last few years Devils stats.

Taking the games where Brodeur played the whole game and comparing them to the games where he either didn't play or only played part of the game, and comparing the SOGF, SOGA, face-offs and PIM per game.

2010-11

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|47|29.38|25.32|50.13|9.04|B Home|23|30.00|23.70|50.26|8.04|B Road|24|28.79|26.88|50.00|10.00
Other|35|27.51|28.40|54.71|9.69|O Home|18|26.83|29.39|53.50|7.11|O Road|17|28.24|27.35|56.00|12.41

2009-10

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|70|29.84|27.00|51.71|10.47|B Home|39|28.54|25.33|50.97|10.33|B Road|31|31.48|29.10|52.65|10.65
Other|12|30.83|26.92|52.00|10.50|O Home|2|33.00|19.00|49.00|13.00|O Road|10|30.40|28.50|52.60|10.00

2008-09

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|28|35.14|29.68|55.03|14.75|B Home|14|34.00|29.57|55.71|13.64|B Road|14|36.29|29.79|54.36|15.86
Other|54|31.74|29.33|56.59|11.94|O Home|27|31.41|27.33|57.26|13.56|O Road|27|32.07|31.33|55.93|10.33

2007-08

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|73|29.04|27.44|52.03|11.78|B Home|39|29.10|26.46|52.00|11.41|B Road|34|28.97|28.56|52.06|12.21
Other|9|26.89|28.22|54.22|12.67|O Home|2|27.50|23.00|51.00|17.50|O Road|7|26.71|29.71|55.14|11.29

2006-07

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|76|28.74|28.28|52.50|9.45|B Home|38|27.79|26.00|53.16|9.82|B Road|38|29.68|30.55|51.84|9.08
Other|6|28.33|30.50|60.00|18.67|O Home|3|25.67|25.00|59.00|17.00|O Road|3|31.00|36.00|61.00|20.33

2005-06

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|69|29.29|29.12|57.01|11.45|B Home|33|28.79|27.15|56.79|9.91|B Road|36|29.75|30.92|57.33|12.86
Other|13|29.15|29.92|57.15|10.92|O Home|8|25.75|28.25|54.38|11.75|O Road|5|34.60|32.60|61.60|9.6

Total

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|363|29.69|27.75|53.01|10.85|B Home|186|29.14|26.15|52.94|10.34|B Road|177|30.28|29.43|53.09|11.38
Other|129|29.75|28.89|55.71|11.46|O Home|60|28.92|27.53|55.35|11.67|O Road|69|30.48|30.07|56.01|11.28

Certainly this is just a small snapshot, but it is interesting that the Devils do seem to do better in more than just SOGA with Brodeur in the nets. More SOGF in 5/6 seasons, fewer SOGA in 4/6, fewer faceoffs in 6/6, and fewer PIM in 4/6.

Keep in mind that this is all post lockout so far, so the trapezoid is in effect.

The fact that the Devils have both more shots for and against on the road says the under counting is still there in the new arena.

The one clear picture is that Brodeur has an impact on the number of faceoffs the Devils take in a game. Hard to say how this influences the game, but it clearly shows Brodeur does have an impact well beyond just stopping the puck.

 

[BM67]

Here's the last year before the lockout.

2003-04

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|75|29.56|24.63|59.77|10.59|B Home|38|28.55|22.61|60.21|11.16|B Road|37|30.59|26.70|59.32|10.00
Other|7|31.14|21.71|62.57|14.57|O Home|3|31.67|20.67|65.33|13.00|O Road|4|30.75|22.50|60.50|15.75

As you can see faceoffs per game are much higher than post-lockout.

Running totals: More SOGF in 5/7 seasons, fewer SOGA in 4/7, fewer faceoffs in 7/7, and fewer PIM in 5/7.


Total

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|438|29.67|27.21|54.17|10.81|B Home|224|29.04|25.54|54.17|10.48|B Road|214|30.33|28.96|54.17|11.14
Other|136|29.82|28.52|56.06|11.62|O Home|63|29.05|27.21|55.83|11.73|O Road|73|30.49|29.66|56.26|11.52

 

[Scott1980]

I sort of think of Brodeur as like Cy Young. He posted the best numbers (Wins) and was consistant from his first year on. Now, do I think there are better pitchers than Young? You could make an argument that Walter Johnson (similar situation to Hasek) was better. Still, at the end of the day, Marty's stats are among the most amazing you'll ever see in hockey, because no one thought Sawchuk's shutout record was going to be passed. Even Roy's win total seemed like it was going to be hard to beat.

Yet, 700 wins, 125 shutouts? Marty can do it!

 

[RyK15*]

How the hell is a guy with 4 Vezinas, 3 Cups, and a ton of records overrated?

 

[GuineaPig]

How the hell is a guy with 4 Vezinas, 3 Cups, and a ton of records overrated?

Well, if he didn't deserve a number of those Vezinas, that would be something, wouldn't it?

 

[steve141]

I sort of think of Brodeur as like Cy Young. He posted the best numbers (Wins)

You do know that Brodeur is also the all-time leader in losses? Playing a lot of games will do that.

 

[overpass]

You do know that Brodeur is also the all-time leader in losses? Playing a lot of games will do that.

So is Cy Young.

 

[BM67]

A couple of years from before the lockout.

2003-04

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|75|29.56|24.63|59.77|10.59|B Home|38|28.55|22.61|60.21|11.16|B Road|37|30.59|26.70|59.32|10.00
Other|7|31.14|21.71|62.57|14.57|O Home|3|31.67|20.67|65.33|13.00|O Road|4|30.75|22.50|60.50|15.75

2002-03

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|71|31.85|23.68|60.65|12.10|B Home|36|31.42|22.31|60.28|10.97|B Road|35|32.29|25.09|61.03|13.26
Other|11|30.73|23.09|63.27|8.45|O Home|5|34.00|20.20|62.80|12.20|O Road|6|28.00|25.50|63.67|5.33

As you can see faceoffs per game are much higher than post-lockout.

Running totals: More SOGF in 6/8 seasons, fewer SOGA in 4/8, fewer faceoffs in 8/8, and fewer PIM in 5/8.


Total

Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM|Goalie|GP|SOGF|SOGA|FO|PIM
Brodeur|509|29.97|26.72|55.07|10.99|B Home|260|29.37|25.10|55.02|10.55|B Road|249|30.61|28.41|55.13|11.44
Other|147|29.89|28.12|56.60|11.38|O Home|68|29.41|26.69|56.34|11.76|O Road|79|30.30|29.34|56.82|11.05

 

[Doomsday Device]

I won't give you 2004. If they gave it to Luongo in 2004 just because his SV% was inflated by the over counting of shots in FLA, then there's more wrong with the system than we all thought.

I realize this is an old post, but I noticed no one had mentioned that Luongo's save percentage was actually much higher on the road then at home that season. It was 0.926 at home and 0.935 on the road.

 

[Sentinel]

I think he is overrated. Lemaire's system made him. When Devils had the talent to play more attacking style under Robinson, Brodeur was nothing special. As he was in the Olympics, when Team Canada played more attacking style. Solid, but not the best ever. That honor belongs squarely to Hasek.

 

[habitue*]

Wins and Shutouts nobody will ever top his career. Hasek was a better goalie tho IMO.

More spectacular : yes. Better: no.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I think he is overrated. Lemaire's system made him. When Devils had the talent to play more attacking style under Robinson, Brodeur was nothing special. As he was in the Olympics, when Team Canada played more attacking style. Solid, but not the best ever. That honor belongs squarely to Hasek.

I don't think it's as simple as that, especially when you're dealing with someone who has as long and proven of a track record behind him. But the effect that Hitchcock has had in St. Louis (re: "inflation" of Halak's numbers) is similar to what we have seen from Lemaire and his tactics in NJ, and it's very real. But "surprise!", good coaches produce teams that play good defense as a primary fundamental. Jacques Martin fooled the world into believing the Habs had playoff potential, as did Paul MacLean's moustache about Ottawa...

But seriously. Looking at it a different way, Brodeur has an extensive resume of highlight reel saves that he "shouldn't have made", and I think he's defined as much by the quality of those (and his longevity/durability, of course) as the sheer volume of shots that hit him in the chest "by design" of the system in front of him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lemaire left NJ after 1997-98. I do think there is some merit to the idea that Brodeur's mid career numbers took a big dip when the team played more offensively (from 1998-99 to 2000-01 or in reality the middle of 2001-02 when Robinson was fired). But it's obviously not as simple as saying "Lemaire made him" since Lemaire didn't come back when Brodeur started winning Vezinas.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

More spectacular : yes. Better: no.

Also better, yes (Hasek).