Mark Messier

[Baby Punisher]

That was the problem certain fans on the Internet had with him, the vast majority of Ranger fans had little problem with him. Personally, I find that those two groups are not necessarily one and the same.

With that said, I didn't and still don't think Messier was the problem during those years. The problem was that those teams just weren't very good.

The holes on defense were pretty noteworthy, the forwards who were supposed to be assuming the leadership roles on the team were in their last days as impact NHL performers (and their impact was all over the map), the goaltending became a game of roulette and there wasn't a lot of help on the horizon. Not sure a prime Messier was going to magically turn that around.

I never got that Messier still desired to be the offensive centerpiece on those teams. In 2001, he was the second line center behind Petr Nedved. In 2002, he was slotted behind Lindrtos and Nedved (who fell off considerably). In 2003, he was was still slotted behind those guys, neither of whom had great seasons and then the Rangers tried throwing Bobby Holik into the mix. By 2004, everything was even more of a mess --- Nedved was essentially done as a top six forward, Lindros was a shell of his former self and Holik was terribly miscast on the team.

Messier supposedly had all this power and yet his closest friends were shipped out including Graves and Leetch. He supposedly "hated" Nedved and was going to run him out of town, and yet the two played together for four years.

Frankly, the organization was DOA during those years, from top to bottom. That was due to poor management, not because of some weird Illuminati like influence that Messier had.

Yea pretty much sums it up. If we had gotten Jagr instead of Lindros the team would have been better. Jagr was a monster. Lindros was one NYC bumpy cab ride away from retirement. When the Rangers finally gor Jagr Messier and Jagr were developing chemistry. Not saying they would have been full time line mates but from what I saw they looked pretty good together.

After all the superstars the Rangers dragged through here Flurey, Bure, Lindros etc... they did a whole lot of nothing because two of three where on their last legs and Theo never should have been here in the first place. Most nights Messier out played all of them or, at least gave them a chance to put up numbers. Jagr comes here in 2001 and it's a completely different era.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

I loved the guy he was great for us Basically evreyone else said what needs to be said about him.
My biggest qualm was how he was after 94. Since they won the coaches and the fo bowed down to his every wish. This team could have had Shanahan twice but he blocked both deals because he didn't want Kovalev to go. If you read Carpinello's book towards the end of the 97 season and playoffs he was acting immature because he wasn't getting his way.

 

[Edge]

I loved the guy he was great for us Basically evreyone else said what needs to be said about him.
My biggest qualm was how he was after 94. Since they won the coaches and the fo bowed down to his every wish. This team could have had Shanahan twice but he blocked both deals because he didn't want Kovalev to go. If you read Carpinello's book towards the end of the 97 season and playoffs he was acting immature because he wasn't getting his way.

Actually, Messier didn't block the Shanahan deal.

It was Smith who balked over the asking price, repeatedly.

When Shanahan was a FA in 1991, Smith and the Rangers wanted him. But the arbitration system back then likely would have resulted in Brian Leetch being named the compensation.

Can't remember off-hand what the potential deal was with St. Louis. I want to say it was Kovalev and a first (95) for Shanahan. Instead Kovalev remained and the first went to Hartford for Verbeek.

When a trade came up with Hartford, Rutherford wanted Kovalev,Cloutier, Dube and Brown. Smith didn't like the price. That, turned out to be a mistake.

So if we really want to be technical, it was Kovalev that cost us Shanahan on two occassions. (Or rather the Rangers love for Kovalev's ability, which never quite manifested itself over the course of his NHL career).

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Actually, Messier didn't block the Shanahan deal.

It was Smith who balked over the asking price, repeatedly.

When Shanahan was a FA in 1991, Smith and the Rangers wanted him. But the arbitration system back then likely would have resulted in Brian Leetch being named the compensation.

Can't remember off-hand what the potential deal was with St. Louis. I want to say it was Kovalev and a first (95) for Shanahan. Instead Kovalev remained and the first went to Hartford for Verbeek.

When a trade came up with Hartford, Rutherford wanted Kovalev,Cloutier, Dube and Brown. Smith didn't like the price. That, turned out to be a mistake.

So if we really want to be technical, it was Kovalev that cost us Shanahan on two occassions. (Or rather the Rangers love for Kovalev's ability, which never quite manifested itself over the course of his NHL career).

Add Matteau in 95 as well, but I heard it came up again in 96 and Messier was in Smith's ear not to trade Kovalev and something else came up about the newly acquired Gretzky not liking him. I still say if we had Shanahan and Verbeek in 97 we have another cup.

 

[Edge]

Add Matteau in 95 as well, but I heard it came up again in 96 and Messier was in Smith's ear not to trade Kovalev and something else came up about the newly acquired Gretzky not liking him. I still say if we had Shanahan and Verbeek in 97 we have another cup.

Contrary to popular belief, Messier didn't have that much sway in guys being traded. If he did, neither Amonte or Gartner would've been dealt.

One could argue that starting in 1993, Smith and the Rangers did a progressively worse job of asset management. By the time the team reached the end of the decade, it was in shambles.

I've long said that I'm not totally sure that the 1993-96 moves and non-moves didn't basically trade 2-3 cups for one. But there's no way to prove that.

As for Shanahan, he would've done very well here and yes, I believe the Rangers acquiring him in either 95 or 96 would've enhanced the teams chances of winning another cup.

I'll also add that, even then, I was not a huge fan of Kovalev. The Rangers insistance on holding onto him, while trading away other young talents, or passing on talent, was infuriating for me --- even as a teenager.

 

[JanErixon20]

The trade that I hated back in the 90s was the Kurri deal with L.A.. Awful.

And I read in the Messier book that he hated the Nemchinov deal to Vancouver, which I think brought back Russ Courtnall.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

The trade that I hated back in the 90s was the Kurri deal with L.A.. Awful.

And I read in the Messier book that he hated the Nemchinov deal to Vancouver, which I think brought back Russ Courtnall.

Brought Tikkanen back too, who picked up alot of slack those playoffs

 

[cwede]

The trade that I hated back in the 90s was the Kurri deal with L.A.. Awful. ...

yes horrid, probably right behind the Hodge and Carpenter deals in list of worst in my time as a fan

if it was just Ferraro, Lapierre and Lafayette (and a 4th!)
for Kurri, McSorley, Churla, ok
but also sacrificing Matti Norstrom (project Ryan Graves, but drafted in top 50, at 24)
for 3 guys with little in the tank and no future, ugh

recent Clowe and E.Staal trades are on the su# list too

 

[JanErixon20]

Brought Tikkanen back too, who picked up alot of slack those playoffs

Scored the OT winner off the camera to beat Florida. I think he scored the series clincher as well, in OT.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Messier is the biggest reason the New York Rangers & their fans can hold their heads up high with some sense of pride. But for what he did for the Rangers in 1994, Rangers would be looking at 76+ year Cup drought,

 

[HFBS]

What I love about Messier is he wanted to come to NY, he wanted to win in NY. He accepted all the responsibility and he let the other guys do their thing. And not only that, he performed at a world class lever.

Mark Messier came to NYC and promised us a stanley cup and he delivered. No other Ranger in my lifetime achieved that.

I was born in 81 so I didn't get to see the old greats play and I doubt many here did.

I've been a Ranger fan since 1968. I was a long suffering Ranger fan before most of you were born. 1994 validated my life. If you don't understand that I can't explain it to you.

 

[Captain Lindy]

Messier is the biggest reason the New York Rangers & their fans can hold their heads up high with some sense of pride. But for what he did for the Rangers in 1994, Rangers would be looking at 76+ year Cup drought,

You are exactly right about that. Those videos are awesome. When you think back to game 6 of the Devils series...we were down 3-1 at one point I think in the 2nd?? What a game...a game for the ages. Mess was a player for the ages in my opinion.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

You are exactly right about that. Those videos are awesome. When you think back to game 6 of the Devils series...we were down 3-1 at one point I think in the 2nd?? What a game...a game for the ages. Mess was a player for the ages in my opinion.

I'm still in awe whenever I see highlights from Messier delivering on his guarantee, and I'm not even a Rangers fan. It truly is one of the most memorable hockey moments of my lifetime.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Contrary to popular belief, Messier didn't have that much sway in guys being traded. If he did, neither Amonte or Gartner would've been dealt.

One could argue that starting in 1993, Smith and the Rangers did a progressively worse job of asset management. By the time the team reached the end of the decade, it was in shambles.

I've long said that I'm not totally sure that the 1993-96 moves and non-moves didn't basically trade 2-3 cups for one. But there's no way to prove that.

As for Shanahan, he would've done very well here and yes, I believe the Rangers acquiring him in either 95 or 96 would've enhanced the teams chances of winning another cup.

I'll also add that, even then, I was not a huge fan of Kovalev. The Rangers insistance on holding onto him, while trading away other young talents, or passing on talent, was infuriating for me --- even as a teenager.

This is an interesting take. I get your point, but even if Smith and the Ranger's brass doubled down just to end the curse for the sake of the curse not the changing league, I don't think I'm certain the Rangers would not have been able to beat the Devils, Avalanche, and Wings from 95 onward even if they extended the window of excellence by not trading Amonte and Weight.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

yes horrid, probably right behind the Hodge and Carpenter deals in list of worst in my time as a fan

if it was just Ferraro, Lapierre and Lafayette (and a 4th!)
for Kurri, McSorley, Churla, ok
but also sacrificing Matti Norstrom (project Ryan Graves, but drafted in top 50, at 24)
for 3 guys with little in the tank and no future, ugh

recent Clowe and E.Staal trades are on the su# list too

The Rangers were the best home team that year up until the Ferraro trade.

That Kings trade signaled the dark era. There was a bit of a lag, but management really foreshadowed a bad time in Ranger history.

 

[JanErixon20]

The Rangers were the best home team that year up until the Ferraro trade.

That Kings trade signaled the dark era. There was a bit of a lag, but management really foreshadowed a bad time in Ranger history.

I recall them wanting to be a better team at home that year, and they were. I think they had a long point streak at home at one point.

That trade was horrid. I remember hearing it (on SportsPhone) and being like

 

[Boris Zubov]

The Rangers were the best home team that year up until the Ferraro trade.

That Kings trade signaled the dark era. There was a bit of a lag, but management really foreshadowed a bad time in Ranger history.

I recall them wanting to be a better team at home that year, and they were. I think they had a long point streak at home at one point.

That trade was horrid. I remember hearing it (on SportsPhone) and being like

For all the sports news instantly, dial 976-1313....



Horrid is an understatement. Neil Smith was obsessed with getting bigger for a potential playoff clash with Philly that never happened. Instead we traded away grit & speed with Ferraro, & we became the oldest, slowest team in the conference overnight. That trade, along with the Verbeek & Messier injuries basically ended the season. It was a miracle we got past Montreal.

It truly set the franchise back 10 years. We literally became the Steinbrenner Yankees of the late 80s, signing every overpriced free agent & becoming the evil empire of the NHL. Really ugly teams from 97-04. Plus we wasted the last 8 years of Brian Leetch's brilliant career.

 

[Edge]

This is an interesting take. I get your point, but even if Smith and the Ranger's brass doubled down just to end the curse for the sake of the curse not the changing league, I don't think I'm certain the Rangers would not have been able to beat the Devils, Avalanche, and Wings from 95 onward even if they extended the window of excellence by not trading Amonte and Weight.

It's a very slippery slope and impossible for to say with any certainty. The only thing we do know is that they made the trades and they won a cup.

Having said, I will admit to daydreaming about a roster with a prime Amonte, Weight, Zubov and Nordstrom, and a trade for a guy like Shanahan that would've put them right in the mix in 95-99.

That's one HOF player, maybe two, and two guys who are level just below that.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

On the cusp of what? We'd won one playoff round since going to the semis in '86. We were thoroughly embarrassed in the '91 playoffs & Neil Smith had accused some of the team of quitting during that series vs the Caps. Big changes were imminent that off season.

Before the 91-92 season started, not many would've imagined the Rangers winning the Presidents Trophy. Even after the Messier trade, it was still inconceivable they were Cup contenders until that team really started to gel around December.

The Rangers won the division title in 1990 -- the first in 50 years -- and were considered one of the favorites to come out of the Wales. They were an even better team in 1991 and were leading the league in points until the wheels fell off after the Kevin Miller trade. Leetch was almost a Norris finalist in 1991, Richter was a Vezina finalist in 1991. Plus they had already drafted Kovalev, Amonte, Weight, Zubov and Nemchinov before Messier arrived.

But because they took an early lead in the weakest of the National Hockey League's four divisions and held it until the middle of the final month, they appeared to many people to be a Stanley Cup contender, even as their overall standing in the 21-team league slipped gradually from first to eighth.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/sports/hockey-rangers-grand-illusion-ends-in-painful-reality.html

I don't know about you, but as a 16-17 year old in 1990 and 1991, every Rangers fan I came in contact with felt this team was a contender. Messier simply reinforced it, which was the original point I made.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The Rangers won the division title in 1990 -- the first in 50 years -- and were considered one of the favorites to come out of the Wales. They were an even better team in 1991 and were leading the league in points until the wheels fell off after the Kevin Miller trade. Leetch was almost a Norris finalist in 1991, Richter was a Vezina finalist in 1991. Plus they had already drafted Kovalev, Amonte, Weight, Zubov and Nemchinov before Messier arrived.

No division title in 50 years. Now, that's awful!

 

[Boris Zubov]

The Rangers won the division title in 1990 -- the first in 50 years -- and were considered one of the favorites to come out of the Wales. They were an even better team in 1991 and were leading the league in points until the wheels fell off after the Kevin Miller trade. Leetch was almost a Norris finalist in 1991, Richter was a Vezina finalist in 1991. Plus they had already drafted Kovalev, Amonte, Weight, Zubov and Nemchinov before Messier arrived.



http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/sports/hockey-rangers-grand-illusion-ends-in-painful-reality.html

I don't know about you, but as a 16-17 year old in 1990 and 1991, every Rangers fan I came in contact with felt this team was a contender. Messier simply reinforced it, which was the original point I made.

When Neil Smith was hired & we won the division in 89-90, things were definitely trending in the right direction. However, I think the optimism that we were serious cup contenders was quite premature as witnessed by the back to back drubbings by the Caps in 90 & 91. Those two series were ugly & the '91 series was barely more competitive than the year before. Considering Washington was ousted in the subsequent rounds both times, how far would we have realistically gone if we had beaten them?

I absolutely think we were on the right track with all the young talent Smith was assembling. However, if you look back on those rosters, there is a serious lack of depth, especially on the blue line. In the '90 playoffs we were dressing guys like Jeff Bloemberg as the 6th D. Behind Leetch, we had James Patrick & not much else. I always admired how hard guys like Mark Hardy & David Shaw competed, but they were just not good enough.

The bottom line is, IMO, before Messier the Rangers were more dreamers than contenders. Bringing him here showed the league & the fans that the Rangers needed to be taken seriously for the first time since the 70s. If you were old enough to recall that day, which you were, I literally got chills when I heard the news. Every Islander fan I knew was really unhappy about it.

 

[JanErixon20]

For all the sports news instantly, dial 976-1313....



Horrid is an understatement. Neil Smith was obsessed with getting bigger for a potential playoff clash with Philly that never happened. Instead we traded away grit & speed with Ferraro, & we became the oldest, slowest team in the conference overnight. That trade, along with the Verbeek & Messier injuries basically ended the season. It was a miracle we got past Montreal.

It truly set the franchise back 10 years. We literally became the Steinbrenner Yankees of the late 80s, signing every overpriced free agent & becoming the evil empire of the NHL. Really ugly teams from 97-04. Plus we wasted the last 8 years of Brian Leetch's brilliant career.

Smith loaded up for the Flyers, and he got the Penguins in the playoffs. And when they did face Philly again, they were decimated by injuries in the conference finals in '97.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Smith loaded up for the Flyers, and he got the Penguins in the playoffs. And when they did face Philly again, they were decimated by injuries in the conference finals in '97.

That team in the '97 playoffs was almost a totally different team that the one in the '96 playoffs. If they had faced Philly in '96, we had a better shot than we did against Pitt. Actually Pitt was the only match-up nightmare for us in those playoffs. They owned us that entire season. We just couldn't skate with them, especially after "the trade".

The playoff bracket did us no favors that year, neither did falling out of first with about 10 -15 days left in the season. Those two injuries killed us. Had we faced either Florida or Philly, we had a chance to get to the Finals. Didn't matter, Colorado would've mopped the floor with us.

In '97 it was obvious that team was kinda gliding in the regular season with the playoffs in mind, but they just had too many injuries to overcome. They were an old group that looked like they all had too many hockey miles on those legs. Not sure if Neil Smith was gun shy after getting bent over the previous deadline, but the rumor in NY was Mogilny was coming. The trade with Vancouver was a letdown when we only got back Tikk & Courtnall. Sure they chipped in, but that team needed a goal scorer in the playoffs....badly. Graves was the third line checking center. We had no chance.

 

[cwede]

That team in '97 playoffs was almost a totally different team that the one in the '96 playoffs. If they had faced Philly in '96, we had a better shot than we did against Pitt. Actually Pitt was a the only matchup nightmare for us in those playoffs. They owned us that entire season. We just couldn't skate with them, especially after "the trade".

The playoff bracket did us no favors that year, neither did falling out of first with about 10 -15 days left in the season. Those two injuries killed us. Had we faced either Florida or Philly, we had a chance to get to the Finals. Didn't matter, Colorado would've mopped the floor with us.

In '97 it was obvious that team was kinda gliding in the regular season with the playoffs in mind, but they just had too many injuries to overcome. They were an old group that looked like they all had too many hockey miles on those legs. Not sure if Neil Smith was gun shy after getting bent over the previous deadline, but the rumor in NY was Mogilny was coming. The trade with Vancouver was a letdown when we only got back Tikk & Courtnall. Sure they chipped in, but that team needed a goal scorer in the playoffs....badly. Graves was the third line checking center. We had no chance.

oh that '97 Flyers series, looks like a romp on paper, 4-1
[ like '14 vs LA ]
but
game 3 was tied with 6 mins left, (3-6 final)
game 5 was tied with 3 mins left (2-3 final, Lindros with 7 secs left)
game 6 was a 1-goal game with 7 minutes left (2-4 Final)

not saying we were a great team or shoulda won,
just that was so close to the Finals,
and with Mess and Gretz any thing coulda been possible

 

[Boris Zubov]

oh that '97 Flyers series, looks like a romp on paper, 4-1
[ like '14 vs LA ]
but
game 3 was tied with 6 mins left, (3-6 final)
game 5 was tied with 3 mins left (2-3 final, Lindros with 7 secs left)
game 6 was a 1-goal game with 7 minutes left (2-4 Final)

not saying we were a great team or shoulda won,
just that was so close to the Finals,
and with Mess and Gretz any thing coulda been possible

It actually ended in 5. But I completely agree.

Thats what made all those injuries, (Plus Karpotsev missing two games) so frustrating. It never felt like Philly was the better team, they just won the war of attrition.

We needed more scoring however. Goals were so precious in those playoffs. It was Gretzky & Leetch making all the plays.....& nobody else.