Marc Bergevin -'The answer is in that room'- Edition

[ChikN]

The Subban book has competition ...

Purple "Steppé Back" Pants a.k.a Mr. Kan Kon, can barely speak his mother tongue coherently, he would struggle to write a 400 words "essay" in french, let alone write a book in english.

A chest bras dudebro typical fuzzy de Laval clubbeux is the GM of the f***ing Canadiens de Montréal. I just can't get over that fact, same goes for 2/3 of our hockey "journalists"...

 

[Lshap]

Sorry I disagree.
We came out of the ECF understanding a number of things about this team.
1) This was Subban's team and both he and Eller were undisputably core players more so than either Max or Davey.
2) Our shutdown center struggled to a -7 once all was said and done which was totally unacceptable on a contender.
3) Teams would and could run Carey Price with impunity as we had no real dissuader Prust was cooked by then.
4) The addition of Thomas Vanek altered the make-up of our lines to the point we had more of our depth players in their proper chairs.
5) Our D was still missing a critical component as Emelin was obviously an overpaid third pairing guy.

So how was this addressed by our mighty management...

PK was muzzled and although Eller was given a new contract he was not given the second center ice time he deserved and was successful with in the post season. He was also targeted by the french media straight out of the gate as if the previous post season did not happen. You had to read protectionism into it there was no other possible reasoning.

Galchenyuk was still tied to the wing.
We didn't address the need for a Vanek type upgrade.
We didn't find a replacement for Prust.
Our tandem of Plek DD were kept in place as stakeholders.
We continued to believe we couldn't do without Max despite his lack of presence in the meaningful games and yes it was pointed out at the time. This team could, would, and should have been much better with proper trades using assets that still retained some value.

Emelin kept in the top 4 and put back on his strong side which didn't help much.

Queue the transition year pre-curser to the fox hole year.
Not one of these moves were made. I can only surmise the answers would have been very unpopular to some and were disregarded out of hand. But let's be honest here management were not allowing for point number one to happen. This was never going to be PK's team his crew were slowly moved out. It was going to be MB's team organized by yes men with no show of emotion or celebration or fun. Just what MB referred to as Character.

The tarnishing and what I called a trial balloon you claim never happened was clearly remarked on once the media outlets started ragging on PK despite the fact that he and Eller were doing all and the only heavy lifting during the worst stretch of hockey in Habs history. There was the presser where PK had to eat and was blamed for Max's blunder around the same time he threw the words "I'm not paid to score goals" back in everyone's face something that was drilled into his head by the management and no doubt. Fans were crying out for MT's dismissal long before the trade deadline and any possible major moves. The climax to the whole scene was the eventual Eller, Weise, and PK trades. This eventually led to Carey Price stating unequivocally "We'd lost lost our Identity"
What we have today is the end result of backing the wrong horses.
This was called out real time and although some of it is conjecture I'd like someone/anyone to provide another scenario that comes even remotely close to fitting the facts.

Most of what you describe here is Therrien's coaching decisions. In that respect I agree with you. As for the media commentary, most of what we heard (and still hear) is hyper-dramatic crap focusing on players' on-ice performance. Every team every year has a media whipping boy. However it's very rare for media to stray into a player's personal life, and then it's almost always based on credible information. Any journalist fabricating info would be fired and sued. Any journalist colluding with management would be outed by other journalists and have their career dumpstered.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Most of what you describe here is Therrien's coaching decisions. In that respect I agree with you. As for the media commentary, most of what we heard (and still hear) is hyper-dramatic crap focusing on players' on-ice performance. Every team every year has a media whipping boy. However it's very rare for media to stray into a player's personal life, and then it's almost always based on credible information. Any journalist fabricating info would be fired and sued. Any journalist colluding with management would be outed by other journalists and have their career dumpstered.

This happens often in Montreal. And nothing ever happens. It only turns into players either shaking it off for the sake of the team, their play diminishing due to being unhappy, or just leaving.

 

[Lshap]

One, how can you be so sure all the rumours posted about Subban weren't coming from some people in management/the organization who wanted to justify trading the most popular player since Patrick Roy/Saku?

It's perfectly rational to believe at least some of what we heard came from the management level and to answer your questions, journalists report what they hear, journalists also don't have to be propagandists for a egomaniac GM and Coach. Why didn't other rumours surface? Well here's a fact that no one mentions; Shea Weber handcuffed his team by signing an insane contract from the Flyers. Why doesn't Nashville have the same drama? Because they're a classy organization that doesn't run guys out of town and especially won't go after one of their best players in franchise history. Montreal is a media hotbed filled with malicious actors.

Also, I tend to agree that not all of this had to do with management and there were internal issues specifically with the Captain and his entourage. Pacioretty hated PK, for what actual reason I'm not sure but I can tell you that without a doubt anyone. Therrien also hated PK and hated him prior to being coach of the Habs, which was well documented on AC.

It would be crazy to suggest that every GM behaves exactly the same way.

It would also be pretty odd to put more value on a GM's PR comments than on his actions.

Same for players... And what we saw in the actions of players with PK quite consistently is that their on ice performance improved next to him & most engaged positively with his emotional leadership.
A few, notably pacioretty, did not. Again here, pacioretty never publicly disparaged him, yet his actions & physical responses spoke volumes.

So, yes, I do think MB's actions and behaviours clearly demonstrated he at best did not value the player. And yes, I think it is very reasonable with the evidence in front of us to suggest there was a strong likelyhood that he had a hand in spreading the odd rumors that emmerged.

Almost a year-and-a-half later, people's opinions on this trade are mostly cemented in place. Including mine. I understand you guys (and others) are convinced the storyline went thataway. I am sure it did not. Being of a certain age with a fair amount of professional contacts, I'll also add the sum of what I heard from people I know. That, plus what I maintain is a solid precedent of how GMs act and don't act, adds up to my own conclusion. Will we ever know for sure? Probably not, considering the contradictions still emerging over the Roy trade 22 years later.

Straw man. Bergy traded Subban because Therrien and the provincial media did not like Subban. There is plenty of evidence for that. Media backed up Therrien and Bergevin because that's what they do, there is plenty of evidence for that as well. No one had to work overtime, plot or collude it just was a natural result given the existing conditions.

You cite "Strawman" and then claim existence of "Invisible man". There is no evidence that backs up what you say. None. Zero. As I said above, I get that you'll believe what you believe despite the absence of evidence. There's nothing wrong with arriving at a conclusion because it feels right. But that's all there is for your scenario -- it feels right. On that basis, I won't change your mind and won't try.

 

[Lshap]

This happens often in Montreal. And nothing ever happens. It only turns into players either shaking it off for the sake of the team, their play diminishing due to being unhappy, or just leaving.

Are there examples of journalists who've actively made-up stories and gotten away with it? I'm honestly curious.

Not even Jack Todd deliberately fabricates stories. He'd have been fired years ago. He misrepresents, exaggerates, and assumes rumours are facts. He's a lousy journalist, but he's still miles from libel, slander, lies. The rest of 'em are somewhere along that spectrum, but I consider Todd the worst offender, and I'd never call him a liar.

 

[JianYang]

Not to rain further on anyone's parade, but if MB is fired in relatively short order, the chances for a lame duck GM as a replacement are relatively high.

I can't see Molson giving the green light to an incoming GM to hire his own coach when claude potentially still has 4 years left, and I think they are still paying therrien too.

The last thing I want is for the next GM to be some sort of "yes man". I want fresh ideas and vision from the outside.

 

[Habsfan18]

He has effectively killed my passion for this team. And it legitimately hurts me to say that.

 

[Goldenhands]

I didnt know someone could actually do worst than Réjean Houle..

 

[BadHabit]

So...

The leading point scorers on the Habs are Gallagher and Danault with 19 points after 33 games.

Radulov - 34 games, 27 points
Sergachev - 32 games, 23 points
Subban - 32 games, 22 points

 

[McGuires Corndog]

So...

The leading point scorers on the Habs are Gallagher and Danault with 19 points after 33 games.

Radulov - 34 games, 27 points
Sergachev - 32 games, 23 points
Subban - 32 games, 22 points

Yeah but you don’t have all the information, MB does.

 

[ArtPeur]

It feels like the Habs are becoming the Preds circa 2010 when they could barely have players above 50pts. Ironically, Weber was on that team. At this rate, I wonder if the Habs will have more than one player above 40pts...

 

[LaP]

The Subban book has competition ...

Is it a new edition? Cause i don't see the subtitle. Usually the whole title with the subtitle included is What happened : The story of a Pathological Liar.

 

[LaP]

Yeah but you don’t have all the information, MB does.

All those guys would have 6 points if they were playing for us anyway.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

All those guys would have 6 points if they were playing for us anyway.

And yet, we should be able to make the playoffs and compete with this roster?

 

[icerocket]

Yeah but you don’t have all the information, MB does.

God if those idiots at TSN 690 use "Well we don't have the same info as MB does..." one more time I'm gonna lose it.

 

[teamfirst]

If you're citing public quotes from players, then there are public quotes from Bergevin praising Subban. You can choose to believe the players at face value and think Bergevin is lying, but that's purely your own spin. Bottom line here is that there is zero evidence -- as in absolutely nothing -- that our GM did anything different than every other GM in history when trading a star player. Was it a good trade? Now that's a totally different debate. Was it poisoned by an insidious plot undermining the player's reputation? No. Sorry, I know some people are tied to this idea, but management doesn't work overtime colluding with media to create a web of lies about a frikkin hockey player. It makes no sense. It hasn't happened with any other star. It willfully ignores the more credible and plausible scenario that there was acrimony between player, teammates and staff.

I get the unhappiness that we lost a great player and person, but the quest for scapegoats has gotten totally out of hand.

I like your post, very logical thinking and i tend to agree with you 100%, but you know that the idea of you being right when saying that may be very boring for some posters here, not to mention that it goes against their agenda

 

[MaxDummy]

Maybe a more interesting question is: Is there an athlete who had a completely false reputation imposed by others?

Shea, Weber.

 

[Wats]

And yet, we should be able to make the playoffs and compete with this roster?

Yeah but MB didn't inherit a cup contender and Habs blew their 2008/2009 drafts almost 10years ago. Not his fault the team has little.

 

[Forum93]

he's as good as gone mate

if an owner says he has full confidence in a coach or gm it means they're done

 

[WeThreeKings]

PK Subban - 22 pts
Sergachev - 23 pts
Radulov - 27 pts
Eller - 13 pts
Andrighetto - 14 pts
Markov - 20 pts (KHL)
Debrincat (2nd round pick in Shaw trade) - 23 pts

Weber - 16
Drouin - 17
Cap Space - 0
Shaw - 16
Martinsen + Bau - 0
Cap Space x 2 - 0

I'll let you do the math to see which group has more offense.

 

[mariolemieux66]

PK Subban - 22 pts
Sergachev - 23 pts
Radulov - 27 pts
Eller - 13 pts
Andrighetto - 14 pts
Markov - 20 pts (KHL)
Debrincat (2nd round pick in Shaw trade) - 23 pts

Weber - 16
Drouin - 17
Cap Space - 0
Shaw - 16
Martinsen + Bau - 0
Cap Space x 2 - 0

I'll let you do the math to see which group has more offense.

Nah man!
Our puck possession numbers are better than last year.
The players we traded play on more offensive teams, hence the difference in points.

 

[Fazkovsky]

Pac for OEL would be amazing

Same contract situation almost same age

We could add if it’s not enough

PHX looking for nhl ready players

 

[mariolemieux66]

Pac for OEL would be amazing

Same contract situation almost same age

We could add if it’s not enough

PHX looking for nhl ready players

I am looking for players under 21 for Pacioretty. I am looking for at least 1 C prospect and a 1st round pick.

This team will suck for another 5 years at least until we load up on assets and prospects, so trading for OEL who's going to be 27 next year doesn't work when you need to rebuild, since OEL will be pass his prime when the team is ready to compete again.

 

[Fazkovsky]

I am looking for players under 21 for Pacioretty. I am looking for at least 1 C prospect and a 1st round pick.

This team will suck for another 5 years at least until we load up on assets and prospects, so trading for OEL who's going to be 27 next year doesn't work when you need to rebuild, since OEL will be pass his prime when the team is ready to compete again.

In 5 years he would still be 32, for me it’s good enough

But yes , I would take a c and something back as well
It’s just I see this as a good trade for both teams

We can’t afford to do another 5 years rebuild . That’s not the plan. It’s harder to find defencemen then top 6 help . We would respond back to the Sergachev trade

 

[googlymoogly]

Molson has allowed his idiot GM to destroy this franchise again. Everyday MB is in charge he could make another terrible trade to put the team even farther back. MB is the worse GM in history of the Habs.