Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL

[VictoryRose]

I totally disagree with that last point. The group up there probably has deep enough pockets for a relocated team that can be purchased at FMV (or perhaps even a discount). I do not believe they could afford an expansion fee the likes of which have been bandied about. Winnipeg's best hope for a team is through relocation.

Here's why I feel that way.

I think GB knows that Winnipeg has a core base that really, really wants a team. Badly. Badly enough to pay expansion fees.

That's free money. GB and the NHL are going to make markets that really, truly desire teams hold out for expansion, in order to make more money. It's the ugly business side of the equation.

the caveat of course is that PHX is in such bad financial shape, GB's hand might be forced, but I wouldnt expect to see the Winnipeg Islanders (as an example), ever.

 

[bodybreak]

where was CHIPMAN and MTS when the Centre was being proposed and then built, and why weren't they involved in buying the Jets?????

The Jets were long gone before the MTS Centre was in its planning stages. MTS Centre was built in 2003/2004. The Jets left in 1996. The site that is now the MTS Centre was actually a five-storey Eaton's (department store). Plans to put the arena there were only made after the chain went bankrupt in 1999. Sears did move in to some of the stores, while selling others to Hudson's Bay Corp., but other stores -- including the downtown Winnipeg location -- were simply emptied and shut.

After years of debate about what to do with the building (including a Save the Eaton's campaign), the store was taken down brick by brick, and the very same bricks were used as part of the construction of the MTS Centre.

When it was discovered the Jets were officially goners, Mark Chipman quietly negotiated with the IHL's Minnesota Moose to relocate north to Manitoba.

We hadn't heard a word about what Chipman was doing all throughout the Jets lame duck season, nor during their first round exit against the Red Wings. Yet, within a few days of the Jets final game -- as soon as the banners had been lowered from the rafters, and lockers had been cleaned out -- Chipman stood at a press conference to announce the arrival of the new team, a huge Manitoba Moose logo adorning centre ice at the Winnipeg Arena.

 

[bodybreak]

Balsillie to speak in Winnipeg
By: Randy Turner
19/05/2009 10:54 AM

Jim Balsillie may have plans to bring hockey to Hamilton. But first the BlackBerry magnate is coming to Winnipeg.

Balsillie, who is currently attempting to purchase the NHL’s Phoenix Coyotes and relocate the team to Hamilton, will be speaking at the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce and Canadian International Council lunch June 2 at the Delta Hotel.

The co-CEO of Research In Motion will be speaking on the topic, "Understanding the World Better."

The luncheon is scheduled for noon to 1:30 p.m.

from the Winnipeg Free Press

That's an awfully vague and strange topic for someone who deals in wireless communications, not peacekeeping or world relations of any kind! This reeks of being sketchy. Remember, it was at the tail end of another event he did in Toronto when he announced his intentions for the Hamilton Coyotes, makeitseven etc.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The Jets were long gone before the MTS Centre was in its planning stages. MTS Centre was built in 2003/2004. The Jets left in 1996. The site that is now the MTS Centre was actually a five-storey Eaton's (department store). Plans to put the arena there were only made after the chain went bankrupt in 1999. Sears did move in to some of the stores, while selling others to Hudson's Bay Corp., but other stores -- including the downtown Winnipeg location -- were simply emptied and shut.

After years of debate about what to do with the building (including a Save the Eaton's campaign), the store was taken down brick by brick, and the very same bricks were used as part of the construction of the MTS Centre.

When it was discovered the Jets were officially goners, Mark Chipman quietly negotiated with the IHL's Minnesota Moose to relocate north to Manitoba.

We hadn't heard a word about what Chipman was doing all throughout the Jets lame duck season, nor during their first round exit against the Red Wings. Yet, within a few days of the Jets final game -- as soon as the banners had been lowered from the rafters, and lockers had been cleaned out -- Chipman stood at a press conference to announce the arrival of the new team, a huge Manitoba Moose logo adorning centre ice at the Winnipeg Arena.

I don't disagree, but Minnesota, now Manitoba was bankrupt when Chipman brought it there, but had Chipman done what his intention was in '03, would the Jets still be in Winnipeg?

 

[axecrew]

I don't disagree, but Minnesota, now Manitoba was bankrupt when Chipman brought it there, but had Chipman done what his intention was in '03, would the Jets still be in Winnipeg?

And just what was his intention in '03?

Do you have proof that MTB is/was bankrupt or is this more "common knowledge"? Your comment as written says that The moose were bankrupt in Minny the last year and are/were now bankrupt in MTB.......again do you have proof of this?

 

[saskganesh]

And just what was his intention in '03?

propel the AHL to world dominance.

Look Hutch, we saw the city of Hamilton approve a 20 year plus for Balsilie last week. they are the Bulldogs landlord. you were wrong, the lease was never an issue.

I reiterate: what happens with the AHL has very little bearing on where NHL teams locate or operate. so drop it.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

It is kind of funny to hear all the arguments and naysaying by all of the "experts" here and in the media against Winnipeg, when the only people that really matter (i.e. a potential ownership group headed by Chipman and the NHL Commissioner) must think that it is at least reasonable.

Think about it, if it didn't have a shot in hell to work, do you think Bettman would bring it up in a private email two months ago?

The city has a perfectly sized arena that will sell out all the time and be nuts to play in, they will get corporate support necessary, and they'll be a moderate financial success. They won't ever challenge the Rangers or Leafs as far as revenue, but I bet they hold their own. They'll be in the middle of the pack, which is a hell of a lot better than where the Yotes are now.

I'm not one that ever held Bettman responsible for the Jets leaving in the first place, with no arena on the horizen I think his hands were tied. But that issue is taken care of and I think they should get a second crack at it. Fan support was never a problem up there.

You make some good points, Stannis.

Winnipeg is a top hockey market in North America, and in my humble opinion it could do better than certain southern markets such as Nashville, TN, Sunrise, FL, or Glendale, AZ. Whatever.

Let's see what happens in the coming weeks.

I feel a certain meltdown is coming very fast in terms of some of these casual markets!

GHOST

 

[King_Stannis]

Here's why I feel that way.

I think GB knows that Winnipeg has a core base that really, really wants a team. Badly. Badly enough to pay expansion fees.

That's free money. GB and the NHL are going to make markets that really, truly desire teams hold out for expansion, in order to make more money. It's the ugly business side of the equation.

the caveat of course is that PHX is in such bad financial shape, GB's hand might be forced, but I wouldnt expect to see the Winnipeg Islanders (as an example), ever.

I only disagree with that due to the fact that TN doesn't have the deep pockets that a franchise fee would call for. They are already paying a premium due to the Canadian dollar difference, so an expansion fee would probably make the team too expensive. They'd be starting out in a sea of red ink before they even played their first game.

Relocation is much more realistic. I think the Commissioner realizes this, too. Chipman and TN have essentially told the league that they are a legitimate site for relocation, and that's why they're flying under the radar. If they wanted an expansion team, they'd probably be doing more in the PR department to drum up support. Right now they're trying to "play the game", and they're doing quite well up to this point.

 

[Gump Hasek]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/columnists/ted_wyman/2009/05/20/9507931-sun.html

Mod edit:
Winnepeg Sun on the possibility of NHL returning to Manitoba

 

[Benji Frank]

when the jets left, there was no salary cap and teams were paying 60-70 mill a season on their roster. the jets payroll was about 23 mill US and the only way the owners could afford it then was through an agreement where the city reimbursed them their losses. the CDN $ was worth around 65-70 cents us and CDN teams were trying to make US salaries work with CDN revenues.... we have little corporate sponsership and even the richest of them all izzy asper took a good look at it and walked away.

there's a salary cap in place now and a new arena, but we still don't have the corporate backing required to sell out the luxury boxes and rinkside seats. the only way we have a real hope is if the bottom completely falls out of what little momentum there is in the US and the salary cap goes back to where it was after the lockout into the low 40's allowing for a floor in the lower 30's or higher 20's..... otherwise, noone will bring a team to winninpeg for 200 mill just for the chance to lose another 50+ mill over a half dozen years before kicking it to the curb or the next chump!!!

 

[BogsDiamond]

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but Winnipeg cannot support a team.

I lived there for a time and I could get tickets along the glass anytime I wanted.
The building was always half empty, fans sat on their hands and the tickets were dirt cheap.

And the MTS building they have now isn't anything close to NHL standards. Doesn't it only have 40 luxery boxes? They'd have to increase that to 100 and try to find a way to add at least 3,000 more seats in there.

Even then, can the average Winnipeger afford ticket prices that are necessary in today's NHL market?

I used to get seats 3 rows from the glass for $35CDN - and there were a lot to choose from.
If people weren't willing to pay those kinds of prices 15 years ago, I wonder how willing they would be to pay $100 for the same ticket now?

 

[King_Stannis]

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but Winnipeg cannot support a team.

I lived there for a time and I could get tickets along the glass anytime I wanted.
The building was always half empty, fans sat on their hands and the tickets were dirt cheap.

And the MTS building they have now isn't anything close to NHL standards. Doesn't it only have 40 luxery boxes? They'd have to increase that to 100 and try to find a way to add at least 3,000 more seats in there.

Even then, can the average Winnipeger afford ticket prices that are necessary in today's NHL market?

I used to get seats 3 rows from the glass for $35CDN - and there were a lot to choose from.
If people weren't willing to pay those kinds of prices 15 years ago, I wonder how willing they would be to pay $100 for the same ticket now?

Were you going to games in the lame duck season? Truthfully?

And those prices were probably par for the course for a smaller market team back then. Are you assuming that everyone in Winnipeg is still making 1995 wages, with no adjustments for inflation?

FWIW, you could take a look at this. Yeah, written by an obviously biased source, but that doesn't mean that there aren't truths there.

http://www.manitobamythbusters.com/...op=view_page&PAGE_id=202&MMN_position=101:101

By the way, Bettman himself has said there is no seating minimum, and he has gone on record as saying MTS Center is NHL quality. The email to Daly confirmed that, as it is what separates Hamilton from Winnipeg.

 

[VictoryRose]

I only disagree with that due to the fact that TN doesn't have the deep pockets that a franchise fee would call for. They are already paying a premium due to the Canadian dollar difference, so an expansion fee would probably make the team too expensive. They'd be starting out in a sea of red ink before they even played their first game.

Relocation is much more realistic. I think the Commissioner realizes this, too. Chipman and TN have essentially told the league that they are a legitimate site for relocation, and that's why they're flying under the radar. If they wanted an expansion team, they'd probably be doing more in the PR department to drum up support. Right now they're trying to "play the game", and they're doing quite well up to this point.

Yeah, I guess thats the part I didnt know and couldnt factor; Chipman/TN's financial situation. Thanks for the info, clears up the possibilities a bit.

 

[BogsDiamond]

Were you going to games in the lame duck season? Truthfully?

And those prices were probably par for the course for a smaller market team back then. Are you assuming that everyone in Winnipeg is still making 1995 wages, with no adjustments for inflation?

FWIW, you could take a look at this. Yeah, written by an obviously biased source, but that doesn't mean that there aren't truths there.

http://www.manitobamythbusters.com/...op=view_page&PAGE_id=202&MMN_position=101:101

By the way, Bettman himself has said there is no seating minimum, and he has gone on record as saying MTS Center is NHL quality. The email to Daly confirmed that, as it is what separates Hamilton from Winnipeg.

It was between '92-'94. I went to quite a few games those years and the only one that was sold out was when they awarded Selanne with a truck for breaking Mike Bossy's record.

I still remember the first game that LA played with Kurri on the Kings with Gretzky. You could literally hear Wayne and Juri talking to each other on the ice during play. That's how quiet it was.

I understand that the economy has gotten a lot better in Winnipeg since then, but I have to call it like I see it when it comes to fan support. Every game, with exception to the Selanne night, was far from being sold out.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

propel the AHL to world dominance.

Look Hutch, we saw the city of Hamilton approve a 20 year plus for Balsilie last week. they are the Bulldogs landlord. you were wrong, the lease was never an issue.

I reiterate: what happens with the AHL has very little bearing on where NHL teams locate or operate. so drop it.

you are wrong, Sask

whatever the NHL does definitely has major implications to all pro sports, otherwise as the other thread states why are MLB, NFL, and the NBA WATCHING or commenting or preparing defenses alongside the NHL.

Hamilton will be a no hockey town should JB elect to bail out of Hamilton and gets a newer arena.

 

[King_Stannis]

It was between '92-'94. I went to quite a few games those years and the only one that was sold out was when they awarded Selanne with a truck for breaking Mike Bossy's record.

I still remember the first game that LA played with Kurri on the Kings with Gretzky. You could literally hear Wayne and Juri talking to each other on the ice during play. That's how quiet it was.

I understand that the economy has gotten a lot better in Winnipeg since then, but I have to call it like I see it when it comes to fan support. Every game, with exception to the Selanne night, was far from being sold out.

Well, I think their average attendance was at or near capacity pretty much up through the time you are talking about. I can only offer that just about everyone, all the way from players to skeptics, is unanimous in their statement that fan support was not a problem up there.

 

[triggrman]

I think it's funny all the reasons given to move the Jets back are the same arguements Nashville fans are told aren't good enough to keep the Predators.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think it's funny all the reasons given to move the Jets back are the same arguements Nashville fans are told aren't good enough to keep the Predators.

SAME ARGUMENT if you want to add Pittsburgh to that.

 

[Cirris]

Balsillie to speak in Winnipeg
By: Randy Turner
19/05/2009 10:54 AM

Jim Balsillie may have plans to bring hockey to Hamilton. But first the BlackBerry magnate is coming to Winnipeg.

Balsillie, who is currently attempting to purchase the NHL’s Phoenix Coyotes and relocate the team to Hamilton, will be speaking at the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce and Canadian International Council lunch June 2 at the Delta Hotel.

The co-CEO of Research In Motion will be speaking on the topic, "Understanding the World Better."

The luncheon is scheduled for noon to 1:30 p.m.

from the Winnipeg Free Press

That's an awfully vague and strange topic for someone who deals in wireless communications, not peacekeeping or world relations of any kind! This reeks of being sketchy. Remember, it was at the tail end of another event he did in Toronto when he announced his intentions for the Hamilton Coyotes, makeitseven etc.

I don't know what's worse.

Bettman throwing out the option of returning to Winnipeg to deflect the "we want 7" campaign.

or

Balsillie going to Winnipeg to seek some sort of "understanding" with the Manitoba politicians like he's pretending to care about them when he's stated his offer to the Coyotes is for "Southern Ontario only".



I feel sorry for Manitoba residents getting jerked around like this. It must feel like 1996 all over again.

 

[kdb209]

Well, I think their average attendance was at or near capacity pretty much up through the time you are talking about.

The Jets attendance spiked up in '92-'93 (their third highest avg year) and then dropped up to and including their last lame duck year.

'90-'91: 12681
'91-'92: 12816
'92-'93: 13550
'93-'94: 13297
'94-'95: 13013
'95-'96: 11316

From the HockeyResearch.org attendance spreadsheet:

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1976-77 1977-78 1978-79 1979-80 1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84
Winnipeg Jets                -----   -----   -----   13284   13265   13382   12889   12400

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1984-85 1985-86 1986-87 1987-88 1988-89 1989-90 1990-91 1991-92
Winnipeg Jets                12994   13620   13594   12681   12816   13106   12931   12931

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1992-93 1993-94 1994-95 1995-96 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 1999-00
Winnipeg Jets                13550   13297   13013   11316   -----   -----   -----   -----

 

[nickschultzfan]

The nice thing about the MTS center is a team in Winnipeg could move in by next season and start making a profit immediately, before any renovations.

Yes, an NHL team in an un-renovated MTS center won't be maximizing the profits, but it will created an immediate profit.

This leverage could then be used to add the future necessary renovations to increase the capacity of the arena and add another level of boxes.

This is an advantage over Hamilton, which will probably require renovations to Copps before the team even sets foot in the arena.

 

[The Pouzar]

It's not a question of the number of fans in the seats in the MTS for NHL games , it's more about how much they are willing to pay for the seats and how much corporate revenue can be generated by the team through rink boards, etc, as well as luxury seats. The average ticket price would have to be over $60.00 to make the team financially viable. I'm basing the number on what Edmonton and Calgary are charging.

 

[BogsDiamond]

The Jets attendance spiked up in '92-'93 (their third highest avg year) and then dropped up to and including their last lame duck year.

'90-'91: 12681
'91-'92: 12816
'92-'93: 13550
'93-'94: 13297
'94-'95: 13013
'95-'96: 11316

From the HockeyResearch.org attendance spreadsheet:

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1976-77 1977-78 1978-79 1979-80 1980-81 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84
Winnipeg Jets                -----   -----   -----   13284   13265   13382   12889   12400

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1984-85 1985-86 1986-87 1987-88 1988-89 1989-90 1990-91 1991-92
Winnipeg Jets                12994   13620   13594   12681   12816   13106   12931   12931

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE          1992-93 1993-94 1994-95 1995-96 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 1999-00
Winnipeg Jets                13550   13297   13013   11316   -----   -----   -----   -----

So they averaged 2,000 seats short of a sellout those years I was there.
And we all know that some tickets are given away.
I can still remember a game I watched against the Canucks. Me and a buddy went to the game and were at one end of the rink. I could have tossed a water balloon in the air and not hit anyone for 10 rows.

The worst part was how quiet it was. On some occasions it would get loud, but most of the time people sat on their hands.

I do have a fond memory of the old Winnipeg Arena though. After one game, me and some friends were walking back to the bustop when we walked around a deserted side of the building. And who was standing there? Alexie Zhamnov. He was waiting for his hot blonde wife to pick him up.
While he was waiting we talked about hockey and living in Winnipeg. He said he loved the city but hated the press. He had a thick Russian accent but when he dropped an f-bomb (only happened when referring to the press) he spoke in perfect English.

The funniest part about that was, there were two teenagers walking in front of us decked out in Jets attire who walked right past Zhamnov. My buddies and I were the first to recognize him and we were all from Ontario and BC. His own fans didn't even recognize him. hahaha.

Anyway, he was a real nice guy and I'll never forget my times going to that arena.
I loved how you could go below the building and walk right up to the visiters dressing room. They would put some 80-year-old as 'security' to guard the players from the fans, but that did no good.

I got autographs from Pavel Bure, Trevor Linden, Keith Primeau, Steve Chaisson, etc. It was great.
But Sergei Fedorov was a *****! He ran from the dressing room to the team bus without signing or doing anything. But guys like Darren McCarty were great and signed everything put in their face.

 

[BogsDiamond]

It's not a question of the number of fans in the seats in the MTS for NHL games , it's more about how much they are willing to pay for the seats and how much corporate revenue can be generated by the team through rink boards, etc, as well as luxury seats. The average ticket price would have to be over $60.00 to make the team financially viable. I'm basing the number on what Edmonton and Calgary are charging.

That's the biggest question - luxury boxes.
Corporate cash is the biggest money maker. If you can't sell the expensive seats and luxury boxes you're in trouble.
That's why Nashville's having problems. They have great support when it comes to selling 'regular' seats but the big ticket boxes and seats aren't selling well.

 

[digger18]

Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec City all deserve NHL teams, I dont care what it takes, new arenas, rich ownership, whatever. All 3 cities would do a better job of supporting NHL hockey. Than we are seeing from the likes of some of Bettmans sunbelt expansion experiments. For the simple fact that people in Canadian markets love the game.

There are just too many markets in the Sun Belt where hockey does not appear until page 8 of the sports columns. When you are in an area where female basketball and Arena Football take presidence over hockey, it's bound to fail.

I honestly beleive that there will be 4-5 failed teams that either will fold, or relocate during the next 5 years. You would have to think that the logical choice for at least 2 of those teams when it comes to relocation is Canada.

Would you build a gold mine in a place where there is no gold? Why would the NHL continue a failed experiment of placing hockey teams in markets where there is very few hockey fans?