Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL

[Fugu]

Can someone please correct me as I seem to have the wrong impression.

Wasn't there a lot of talk about the MTS Centre handicapping Winnipeg as it is far too small for the NHL (under 16k IIRC) and not capable of expanding to NHL size? Is this not true?

It's only true when there are other options. If there are no other options and a team MUST relocate, it can be big enough (in my opinion).

A second team in Toronto's backyard is worth hundreds of millions of dollars in expansion fees to the NHL. That's why it can only happen via expansion according to Bettman. A relocation means only one owner benefits (or cuts his losses, if you will...).

 

[LT_Canadian]

A 15,000 seat arena full is better than a 20,000 seat arena empty. Plus the arena has been said to be expandable if needed.

 

[Jake16]

On the interview with Ron Maclean he asked Balsillie if Winnipeg would be of interest if Hamilton was a no go and Balsillie said my offer is only for Southern Ontario.

Balsillies' anti-Canadian, I guess. Last I checked Winnipeg was in Canada but its not good enough for him.

 

[SedinFan*]

A 15,000 seat arena full is better than a 20,000 seat arena empty. Plus the arena has been said to be expandable if needed.

It'll need to be, but I HIGHLY doubt there's enough corporate sponsorships available in Winnipeg to make the team make money.

I don't even know if Winnipegers would be able to financial support an NHL team.

 

[LT_Canadian]

Balsillies' anti-Canadian, I guess. Last I checked Winnipeg was in Canada but its not good enough for him.

Not sure where you are coming from. I think you're trying to be foolish I take it.

He lives in Southern Ontario and he knows how hard it is for the average person to go to a NHL hockey game due to supply and demand. So he believes he would be helping that market plus generating money for the NHL because more true hockey fans would be allowed to go to the games. It has nothing to do with him being against Winnipeg.

 

[GKJ]

AIUI, Hartford has talked to the NHL in the last year. (One of those twenty groups that Daly and Bettman talk to.)

There is a thread, I think I mentioned it, where a group was on the local news in Hartford about trying to build an arena.

 

[KevFist]

Not sure where you are coming from. I think you're trying to be foolish I take it.

He lives in Southern Ontario and he knows how hard it is for the average person to go to a NHL hockey game due to supply and demand. So he believes he would be helping that market plus generating money for the NHL because more true hockey fans would be allowed to go to the games. It has nothing to do with him being against Winnipeg.

I'm pretty sure it has less to do with Balsillie's patriotism to Southern Ontario and the hockey fans there than it does the fact that RIM is based in Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. Much easier to entertain clients in your backyard instead of hundreds of miles away.

 

[Jake16]

I'm pretty sure it has less to do with Balsillie's patriotism to Southern Ontario and the hockey fans there than it does the fact that RIM is based in Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. Much easier to entertain clients in your backyard instead of hundreds of miles away.

I could care less about what Balsillie wants and is convenient for his business. What I was responding to was the false assertion by a great many people in Canada that Bettman is anti-Canadian. If Bettman is willing to talk about Winnipeg, he's obviously not anti-Canadian. He very well may be anti-Balsilie, but thats because the guy refuses to play by the NHL's rules and instead walks all over them. That has nothing to do with being anti-Canadian.

 

[KevFist]

I don't recall saying anything about Bettman being anti-Canadian...All I did was point out the fact that the reason Balsillie wants a team in Hamilton is because RIM is located in Ontario....

 

[Jake16]

Look through the posts on the main Balsilie / Bettman thread since this thing broke on May 5. There are hundreds of 'Bettman won't let this concocted transaction go through because "Bettman is anti-Canada"' posts on there. That is what I was responding to and addressing.

 

[PensFan6687]

Winnipeg doesn't have enough luxury boxes (btw how can they expand the building? Take out Donald?! ), and we just don't have that kind of money, or the fan support here. The Jets were barely averaging around 13,000 per game when they were here. That was when it was affordable to go to hockey games!

Also, I love spending 20 bucks as a season ticket holder behind the glass ice level, vs. 250-300 that they would cost me if we had an NHL franchise.

So no to the NHL in Winnipeg. Thank you!

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Winnipeg doesn't have enough luxury boxes (btw how can they expand the building? Take out Donald?! ), and we just don't have that kind of money, or the fan support here. The Jets were barely averaging around 13,000 per game when they were here. That was when it was affordable to go to hockey games!

Also, I love spending 20 bucks as a season ticket holder behind the glass ice level, vs. 250-300 that they would cost me if we had an NHL franchise.

So no to the NHL in Winnipeg. Thank you!

It was a different time for Winnipeg and the NHL.
Look at the average attendence back then.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/index.php/site/comments/nhl_average_attendance_since_1989_90/118-2008-09

Hell even Ottawa averaged under 10,000 back then.

The NHL is much hotter now and I can't see why Winnipeg would not answer the call.
As far a suites go, the MTS Center has 48.
I would like to hear how many suites other NHL arenas have.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/footer/fanguide.pdf

 

[section 218]

More like 25% to 30% of season ticket holders. With single games sales most nights up to 40% of the crowd is canadian, even more on weekend games and when canadian teams the red wings or pens are in town

 

[Lard_Lad]

Hell even Ottawa averaged under 10,000 back then.

They were playing in the Civic Center while the new arena was being built. The capacity was around 10,000.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I have to cringe when Canadian hockey fans, or even "Moose supporters" with their cheap AHL tickets from Winnipeg make derisive comments on the possibility or viability of additional NHL franchises in Canada, including Winnipeg. I can excuse certain newer US fans due to plain ignorance. And I support the idea of a new team in southern Ontario, btw.

Let's forget the last year the Jets played in Winnipeg. At the time it was a lame-duck season, which was known to everyone, and the team was slated for relocation to Phoenix, where it has lost money (i.e., multiple millions) every single year since...

In the second last season in Winnipeg, the 1994-95 season, here's some attendance data:

Jets 13,013
Oilers 13,124
Canucks 13,932

Average attendance league wide: 14,797

Different times and different eras, people.

Hockey is far more popular in Canada nowadays than it was at the time, as evidenced by a) much higher ticket prices (even accounting for inflation) and b) sold out arenas.

I attributed this in part to the advent of sports cable channels such as TSN and Sportsnet.

The Oilers and the Canucks are now among the top teams in terms of ticket revenue and TV ratings.

See here, for example, in terms of ticket revenue:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/080530_nhl_tickets_revenue.pdf

Why should Winnipeg be any different in these Canadian trends?

Winnipeg has always been a major hockey town in North America and has a long history of supporting the game of hockey at many different levels. Yet we are to believe that Raleigh, NC, Glendale, AZ, Sunrise, FL, Tampa, FL, Atlanta, GA, Nashville, TN, etc., are the new hockey hotbeds? And that Winnipeg doesn't deserve a second chance?

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Daly's recent comments

From the Winnipeg Free Press:

Scudder said Bettman told him the league wouldn't approve of moving the Phoenix franchise to Hamilton because of the age of that city's Copps Coliseum and that, "if the team did return to Canada, it would be to Winnipeg."

Bettman also said a new team in southern Ontario would have to be an expansion club, the affidavit said.

Asked to comment on Bettman's alleged remarks about Winnipeg, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly told the Free Press on Saturday they're consistent with the league's position.

"I don't think I would have been a party to that conversation specifically," Daly wrote in an email. "But there were conversations over time about what might happen if there were absolutely no other options in Phoenix.

"And, certainly, we have consistently maintained that we would be open to exploring the possibility of bringing NHL hockey back to Winnipeg."

Link here:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/peg-still-on-nhls-map-45249137.html

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Some images of Winnipeg's MTS Centre

These pictures were taken by a poster, JHendrix, and posted at the jetsowner.com site. Enjoy! There are quite a few of them.

See here:

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=all

Or individual links below:

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=0

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=20

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=40

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=60

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k42/Jhendrix70_/MTS Centre/?start=80

Cheers,

GHOST

 

[Moobles]

Hockey has grown a lot in Canada, I think that's sometimes ignored by some of the posters (on both sides of the debate) on these boards. Hockey is far more popular in Vancouver now then it ever was before and it's not just because we're fielding a winning team ('06 and '08 still had great turnouts).

Even this year after we lost vs. Chicago you STILL see tons of Canucks flags, people wearing shirts, jerseys, talking offseason etc. It's wonderful; Vancouver's coming closer and closer to a full blown hockey crazy city : D.

 

[KevFist]

I have to cringe when Canadian hockey fans, or even "Moose supporters" with their cheap AHL tickets from Winnipeg make derisive comments on the possibility or viability of additional NHL franchises in Canada, including Winnipeg. I can excuse certain newer US fans due to plain ignorance. And I support the idea of a new team in southern Ontario, btw.

Let's forget the last year the Jets played in Winnipeg. At the time it was a lame-duck season, which was known to everyone, and the team was slated for relocation to Phoenix, where it has lost money (i.e., multiple millions) every single year since...

In the second last season in Winnipeg, the 1994-95 season, here's some attendance data:

Jets 13,013
Oilers 13,124
Canucks 13,932

Average attendance league wide: 14,797

Different times and different eras, people.

Hockey is far more popular in Canada nowadays than it was at the time, as evidenced by a) much higher ticket prices (even accounting for inflation) and b) sold out arenas.

I attributed this in part to the advent of sports cable channels such as TSN and Sportsnet.

The Oilers and the Canucks are now among the top teams in terms of ticket revenue and TV ratings.

See here, for example, in terms of ticket revenue:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/080530_nhl_tickets_revenue.pdf

Why should Winnipeg be any different in these Canadian trends?

Winnipeg has always been a major hockey town in North America and has a long history of supporting the game of hockey at many different levels. Yet we are to believe that Raleigh, NC, Glendale, AZ, Sunrise, FL, Tampa, FL, Atlanta, GA, Nashville, TN, etc., are the new hockey hotbeds? And that Winnipeg doesn't deserve a second chance?

GHOST

Nobody's saying they are hotbeds....But, if you want to generate new fans, you DO have to reach out a bit, especially when you're a fringe sport like Hockey. I know in Atlanta alone, the Youth Hockey program has grown exponentially. In 15 years when the kids in the Youth Hockey program are adults, don't you think that will transfer into ticket sales and a much larger fanbase? You can't just plop an NHL franchise down, say "Here it is!" and expect people to turn up in droves when most people have never really been exposed to the game.

You're asking about Winnipeg deserving a SECOND chance, when you're not willing to give most of these cities a FIRST chance. If you were actually in Atlanta, you'd see the second chance there is actually going well. Maybe Winnipeg will get their second chance...But for now, you'd better hope these teams make it for the good of the league....But you'd probably be happy if the league contracted down to the original six and started wearing wool sweaters again, correct?

 

[King_Stannis]

It was a different time for Winnipeg and the NHL.
Look at the average attendence back then.

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/index.php/site/comments/nhl_average_attendance_since_1989_90/118-2008-09

Hell even Ottawa averaged under 10,000 back then.

The NHL is much hotter now and I can't see why Winnipeg would not answer the call.
As far a suites go, the MTS Center has 48.
I would like to hear how many suites other NHL arenas have.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/footer/fanguide.pdf

I think the guys at jetsowner.com have crunched the numbers and have come to the conclusion that given the MTS Centre and some modest modifications, a franchise there could be middle-of-the-pack financially. This of course makes assumptions about salaries, travel costs, et. al. Very unscientific, but the conclusions don't seem all that farfetched.

Before anyone scoffs at that, we're talking about the difference between having a team always at the bottom as far as revenue goes to one that is off of revenue sharing and perhaps even paying into it in some years (if the team does exceptionally well). Certainly middle-of-the-pack is better than perpetual-bottom-feeder, which is what is currently going on with a lot of the franchises.

 

[bodybreak]

Winnipeg doesn't have enough luxury boxes (btw how can they expand the building? Take out Donald?! ), and we just don't have that kind of money, or the fan support here. The Jets were barely averaging around 13,000 per game when they were here. That was when it was affordable to go to hockey games!

Also, I love spending 20 bucks as a season ticket holder behind the glass ice level, vs. 250-300 that they would cost me if we had an NHL franchise.

So no to the NHL in Winnipeg. Thank you!

I've never been one to hate the Moose, but at the same time, I'd never get season tickets for them. I've been to a couple games most years. I've been to Ricoh and Copps as well. It's all right hockey. But over that same time span, I've also been able to see a few Leafs and a Flames game as well. Brother, you don't know what you're missing.

Moose fans don't represent the economic base of Winnipeg. Since the MTS Centre opened, Moose fans have always had first crack at NHL exhibition tickets -- to the point where they could sell the building out, leaving no tickets on sale to the general public. This never happens. True North is aware of it. Yes, there are Moose fans who enjoy the lower ticket prices. But there are also those (like me) who would support an NHL team by buying season tickets, who hardly pay attention to the Moose.

Funny thing is, we both have very similar arguments. Again, not to hate on the Moose, but I can't justify to myself spending that kind of time and money on a hockey team that i'm not overly excited about. I won't spend $600 on Moose seasons, but i would put down $5000 on the Jets.

 

[saskganesh]

Asper/Canwest are having money problems. I wouldn't cite them as a big player in this.

 

[saskganesh]

Canada has a huge immigrant population. They are also an untapped market; a few more teams and more marketing can grown the game here rather nicely..

 

[DutchShamrock]

Just speculation on my part but I would bet that the league is generating interest in Manitoba not for the Coyotes, but for expansion. I think the league is waiting out the recession and then they try to add 2 teams, one in Winnipeg and one in KC or Hamilton.

I'm against expansion but I'm just seeing too many refrences to expansion lately and I don't see Bettman admitting a mistake like Win to Phx with a move back. Maybe an expansion team like the Wild, but not a complete turnaround. His legacy is rooted in the US expansion to cover the nation with teams. He turns tail and puts a team back in Canada, he is basically saying he went in the wrong direction over the last 15 years.

I mean, I think he steered it wrong, but I don't think he'll ever admit it.

 

[Lard_Lad]

Hockey has grown a lot in Canada, I think that's sometimes ignored by some of the posters (on both sides of the debate) on these boards. Hockey is far more popular in Vancouver now then it ever was before and it's not just because we're fielding a winning team ('06 and '08 still had great turnouts).

It's grown in all the Canadian NHL cities. Thing is, all the Canadian cities are growing themselves. Consider the population growth rates from 1991 to 2006 for the Canadian urban areas that have teams or are being talked about as relocation/expansion sites:

Calgary: 39%
Vancouver: 37%
Toronto: 31%
Kitchener-Waterloo: 27%
Edmonton: 21%
Hamilton: 16%
Ottawa: 14%
Montreal: 13%
Quebec City: 12%
Winnipeg: 3%.

One of these things is not like the others.

The economies of places like Vancouver and Calgary have grown considerably in the last decade and a half; now there's more money there for hockey and it's showing. But Winnipeg has stagnated. There's no reason to expect much more financial support than existed for the Jets last time around.