Makar vs Hughes

[majormajor]

He scores with everyone both because he's good and because they can also score without him

It's very much the former with the latter being the small part. What other D-men out there are putting up 3.0 P/60 with their middle six players? No one on the Avs and no one in the league!

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

The numbers being discussed were 5v5 though. At 5v5, the Avs had 20 more goals than the Canucks and a 58.5 GF% compared to a 49.5 GF%. And even without either MacKinnon or Makar had a 55 GF%. The Avs were an elite team 5v5 this year regardless of who was on the ice for the most part. That doesn't mean Hughes is better by any means, but it does likely explain a lot of the gap in numbers away from their star centers and in terms of 5v5 P/60 scoring.

The Avs defence is better than the Canucks, which is one of the reasons for these numbers.

Makar racked up his points this year with an Avs power play around the 20th mark because their top unit only played 17% of the season together. If they are relatively healthy next year, look for that power play to be much more lethal.

I don’t think one is really clearly better than the other right now. I just don’t like the situational argument. Playing on a weaker defence has its advantages too. More minutes and more opportunity.

 

[EXTRAS]

The East may have had a lot of the elite NHL talent in the past (Crosby, ovechkin, Malkin, etc) but it's nice to see the West get McDavid and Mackinnon, as well as incredible young dmen in Makar, Hughes, Heiskanen, in that next wave of stars. I'd be thrilled to see any series featuring makar vs hughes vs heiskanen. Who knows, maybe Seider or Drysdale will join that group in the next 2 years or so.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Heiskanen

 

[Nabrules]

It’s hard to be the best player on the ice when your playing with Mackinnon every night and we will see if the avs play the Canucks that Quinn will not be the best player on the ice either. Mackinnon is on another level from everyone else, and Quinn’s points lead is starting to dwindle away since the playoffs really started. Look in you rear view mirror Quinn because Cale is rightbehind you

Fair enough, Mack is on another planet. Although, even when you factor in the talent level of both teams, In my opinion Hughes has been better than Makar.

It’s not really about the points. Hughes controls the game in a way that I haven’t seen any other dman do these playoffs.

 

[Regal]

It's very much the former with the latter being the small part. What other D-men out there are putting up 3.0 P/60 with their middle six players? No one on the Avs and no one in the league!

Yes, because it's completely unsustainable. C'mon now

 

[Regal]

The Avs defence is better than the Canucks, which is one of the reasons for these numbers.

Makar racked up his points this year with an Avs power play around the 20th mark because their top unit only played 17% of the season together. If they are relatively healthy next year, look for that power play to be much more lethal.

I don’t think one is really clearly better than the other right now. I just don’t like the situational argument. Playing on a weaker defence has its advantages too. More minutes and more opportunity.

Yea, I agree the rest of the defense is part of it as well. The Canucks have a lot of holes.

The PP should definitely improve for the Avs next year. MacKinnon, Rantanen and Makar should make a top 10 PP at worst, and they were 7th last year and 8th the year before. I would expect Makar's points to go up there for sure.

I think it'll be hard for him to improve his 5v5 P/60 production though given how well the Avs produced this year. Even with improvement from him, the team likely doesn't sustain the same shooting percentages, so they'll balance out. I think playing on a poor team can sometimes have advantages, but both these players play similar roles and minutes on their teams, so I think the Avs being better definitely helps. Especially for defensemen who can't force the play as much for offense. Again, I don't think this means one is better than the other, just that it bridges the gap at least somewhat that Makar has in P/60.

 

[John Johnson]

What really amazes me is that Hughes as a rookie, is starting over 70% of the time in the Dzone these playoffs. That coupled with his possession metrics are really outstanding to me.

 

[SillyRabbit]

After watching both of them and Heiskanen these playoffs, I've concluded that I'm tired of comparing them to each other.

It's like comparing Eichel to Matthews or Pastrnak to Panarin, etc.

They're all insanely good. None of their teams would trade their guy for any of the other guys.

However if you were absolutely forced to trade them in a 1 for 1 trade, you'd immediately ask for one of the other guys. That should tell you right there all you need to know.

 

[topshelf15]

After watching both of them and Heiskanen these playoffs, I've concluded that I'm tired of comparing them to each other.

It's like comparing Eichel to Matthews or Pastrnak to Panarin, etc.

They're all insanely good. None of their teams would trade their guy for any of the other guys.

However if you were absolutely forced to trade them in a 1 for 1 trade, you'd immediately ask for one of the other guys. That should tell you right there all you need to know.

This ,no need to argue just enjoy

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Makar to me lacks in skating what Heiskanen and Hughes have. Hughes is just so smooth and Heisk has that top level speed that makar doesn’t. I think makar may be even as of now (mainly because of his shot) but his skating will comeback to hurt him

 

[Muffin]

Makar to me lacks in skating what Heiskanen and Hughes have. Hughes is just so smooth and Heisk has that top level speed that makar doesn’t. I think makar may be even as of now (mainly because of his shot) but his skating will comeback to hurt him

Except Makar is the faster skater?

 

[Bankerguy]

Hughes is a year younger than Makar. That is massive when comparing players this young.
The fact he put up 53 points in the season and has 11 points in 12 games is insane for a 20 year old.

I'll take Hughes by a hair because i think that when he's the same age as Makar (21), he'll be even better than Makar was this year.

 

[Rowlet]

Heiskanen

Sir, this is about Makar and Hughes.

 

[PeterForsberg]

Makar to me lacks in skating what Heiskanen and Hughes have. Hughes is just so smooth and Heisk has that top level speed that makar doesn’t. I think makar may be even as of now (mainly because of his shot) but his skating will comeback to hurt him

Are you actually saying Makar is the worst skater of the 3?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I've been watching both players in these playoffs...both great players, but Hughes, to me...impacts the game a lot more than Makar does.

 

[avsfan9]

I've been watching both players in these playoffs...both great players, but Hughes, to me...impacts the game a lot more than Makar does.

Not really... Mackinnon impacts the game more

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I've been watching both players in these playoffs...both great players, but Hughes, to me...impacts the game a lot more than Makar does.

He certainly holds the puck more. I think he’s smarter than Makar too. But it’s tough to say Hughes “impacts the game more” when the statistical on ice impact is so heavily weighed in Makar’s favor in these playoffs.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Makar's game is pretty easy to analyze, I watch Makar and I see a young Shea Weber, before he bulked up and lost a step. I watch Hughes play and I'm not really even sure what I'm seeing. I wanna say Rafalski maybe? But that doesn't account for how the game has changed over the years to make that style of play more impactful. Mix in some Patty Kane, or Gaudreau when he was really feeling it? I'm not sure I've ever seen a defenceman who plays like he does, tough to compare to anyone.

 

[majormajor]

He certainly holds the puck more. I think he’s smarter than Makar too. But it’s tough to say Hughes “impacts the game more” when the statistical on ice impact is so heavily weighed in Makar’s favor in these playoffs.

I'd say Hughes' possession skills allows players like Pettersson to impact the game more, that's why Hughes' effectiveness goes up so much with better talent, but he can't really help the Canucks lesser talent put the puck in the net. Makar's contribution is the same no matter who he is on the ice with, if anything maybe better when he has more leeway to carry the puck. If I was Bednar I would stop rolling Mackinnon and Makar as a unit and start putting Makar out there with Kadri and Compher's lines more. I don't think Makar helps Mackinnon as much as Hughes helps Pettersson, but there is a ton of value in turning middle six lines into dangerous scoring units so I'd like to see Makar given more time there.

 

[BB06]

He certainly holds the puck more. I think he’s smarter than Makar too. But it’s tough to say Hughes “impacts the game more” when the statistical on ice impact is so heavily weighed in Makar’s favor in these playoffs.

It's not like he's facing much lower quality opponents or anything

 

[Cousin Eddie]

It's not like he's facing much lower quality opponents or anything

You're kidding right? Here are their 5v5 on ice stats since the start of round 1.

Makar		Hughes
D	Position	D
8	GP	8
134.61666666667	TOI	140.76666666667
177	CF	131
80	CA	157
68.87	CF%	45.49
116	FF	90
59	FA	109
66.29	FF%	45.23
93	SF	62
48	SA	81
65.96	SF%	43.36
12	GF	5
4	GA	7
75.00	GF%	41.67
6.79	xGF	5.59
3.34	xGA	6.04
67.07	xGF%	48.07
88	SCF	68
38	SCA	71
69.84	SCF%	48.92
28	HDCF	26
17	HDCA	29
62.22	HDCF%	47.27
8	HDGF	3
2	HDGA	5
80.00	HDGF%	37.50
60	MDCF	42
21	MDCA	42
74.07	MDCF%	50.00
4	MDGF	2
1	MDGA	2
80.00	MDGF%	50.00
79	LDCF	57
35	LDCA	77
69.30	LDCF%	42.54
0	LDGF	0
1	LDGA	0
0.00	LDGF%	-
12.90	On-Ice SH%	8.06
91.67	On-Ice SV%	91.36
1.046	PDO	0.994
30	Off. Zone Starts	28
34	Neu. Zone Starts	30
16	Def. Zone Starts	17
88	On The Fly Starts	108
65.22	Off. Zone Start %	62.22
67	Off. Zone Faceoffs	58
62	Neu. Zone Faceoffs	41
40	Def. Zone Faceoffs	35
62.62	Off. Zone Faceoff %	62.37

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You're seriously going to attribute those drastic differences to "quality of competition"?.

 

[BB06]

You're kidding right? Here are their 5v5 on ice stats since the start of round 1.

Makar		Hughes
D	Position	D
8	GP	8
134.61666666667	TOI	140.76666666667
177	CF	131
80	CA	157
68.87	CF%	45.49
116	FF	90
59	FA	109
66.29	FF%	45.23
93	SF	62
48	SA	81
65.96	SF%	43.36
12	GF	5
4	GA	7
75.00	GF%	41.67
6.79	xGF	5.59
3.34	xGA	6.04
67.07	xGF%	48.07
88	SCF	68
38	SCA	71
69.84	SCF%	48.92
28	HDCF	26
17	HDCA	29
62.22	HDCF%	47.27
8	HDGF	3
2	HDGA	5
80.00	HDGF%	37.50
60	MDCF	42
21	MDCA	42
74.07	MDCF%	50.00
4	MDGF	2
1	MDGA	2
80.00	MDGF%	50.00
79	LDCF	57
35	LDCA	77
69.30	LDCF%	42.54
0	LDGF	0
1	LDGA	0
0.00	LDGF%	-
12.90	On-Ice SH%	8.06
91.67	On-Ice SV%	91.36
1.046	PDO	0.994
30	Off. Zone Starts	28
34	Neu. Zone Starts	30
16	Def. Zone Starts	17
88	On The Fly Starts	108
65.22	Off. Zone Start %	62.22
67	Off. Zone Faceoffs	58
62	Neu. Zone Faceoffs	41
40	Def. Zone Faceoffs	35
62.62	Off. Zone Faceoff %	62.37

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You're seriously going to attribute those drastic differences to "quality of competition"?.

Easily. The coyotes weren't even a playoff team when the season ended and the Blues were the second best team in the NHL and defending cup champs. 20 point difference in the standing. Coyotes are the same caliber team as the Wild and we saw what Hughes did with them. Makar is 5th on his team in scoring and Hughes is 2nd....

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Easily. The coyotes weren't even a playoff team when the season ended and the Blues were the second best team in the NHL and defending cup champs. 20 point difference in the standing. Coyotes are the same caliber team as the Wild and we saw what Hughes did with them. Makar is 5th on his team in scoring and Hughes is 2nd....

LMAO. Ok here are the stats for round 2. No shitty Arizona or "powerhouse" Blues to look at. Spoiler alert, the differences between them get more drastic. I even used per/60 rates instead of counts since Makar played more minutes and it would have looked even sillier.

Makar		Hughes
D	Position	D
3	GP	2
54.716666666667	TOI	31.116666666667
18.238888888889	TOI/GP	15.558333333333
69.08	CF/60	53.99
38.38	CA/60	96.41
64.29	CF%	35.90
43.86	FF/60	30.85
24.12	FA/60	63.63
64.52	FF%	32.65
38.38	SF/60	23.14
18.64	SA/60	50.13
67.31	SF%	31.58
5.48	GF/60	0
4.39	GA/60	7.71
55.56	GF%	0.00
2.65	xGF/60	1.75
1.15	xGA/60	3.15
69.79	xGF%	35.68
31.8	SCF/60	27
14.26	SCA/60	42.42
69.05	SCF%	38.89
10.97	HDCF/60	7.71
5.48	HDCA/60	15.43
66.67	HDCF%	33.33
2.19	HDGF/60	0
2.19	HDGA/60	5.78
50.00	HDGF%	0.00
27.78	MDCF/60	25.71
11.7	MDCA/60	35.99
70.37	MDCF%	41.67
4.39	MDGF/60	0
1.46	MDGA/60	2.57
75.00	MDGF%	0.00
49.1	LDCF/60	30.64
26.93	LDCA/60	69.63
64.58	LDCF%	30.56
0	LDGF/60	0
1.58	LDGA/60	0
0.00	LDGF%	-
14.29	On-Ice SH%	0.00
76.47	On-Ice SV%	84.62
0.908	PDO	0.846
16.45	Off. Zone Starts/60	1.93
14.26	Neu. Zone Starts/60	9.64
9.87	Def. Zone Starts/60	9.64
33.99	On The Fly Starts/60	57.85
62.50	Off. Zone Start %	16.67
33.99	Off. Zone Faceoffs/60	15.43
28.51	Neu. Zone Faceoffs/60	13.5
20.83	Def. Zone Faceoffs/60	15.43
62.00	Off. Zone Faceoff %	50.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[BB06]

LMAO. Ok here are the stats for round 2. No shitty Arizona or "powerhouse" Blues to look at. Spoiler alert, the differences between them get more drastic. I even used per/60 rates instead of counts since Makar played more minutes and it would have looked even sillier.

Makar		Hughes
D	Position	D
3	GP	2
54.716666666667	TOI	31.116666666667
18.238888888889	TOI/GP	15.558333333333
69.08	CF/60	53.99
38.38	CA/60	96.41
64.29	CF%	35.90
43.86	FF/60	30.85
24.12	FA/60	63.63
64.52	FF%	32.65
38.38	SF/60	23.14
18.64	SA/60	50.13
67.31	SF%	31.58
5.48	GF/60	0
4.39	GA/60	7.71
55.56	GF%	0.00
2.65	xGF/60	1.75
1.15	xGA/60	3.15
69.79	xGF%	35.68
31.8	SCF/60	27
14.26	SCA/60	42.42
69.05	SCF%	38.89
10.97	HDCF/60	7.71
5.48	HDCA/60	15.43
66.67	HDCF%	33.33
2.19	HDGF/60	0
2.19	HDGA/60	5.78
50.00	HDGF%	0.00
27.78	MDCF/60	25.71
11.7	MDCA/60	35.99
70.37	MDCF%	41.67
4.39	MDGF/60	0
1.46	MDGA/60	2.57
75.00	MDGF%	0.00
49.1	LDCF/60	30.64
26.93	LDCA/60	69.63
64.58	LDCF%	30.56
0	LDGF/60	0
1.58	LDGA/60	0
0.00	LDGF%	-
14.29	On-Ice SH%	0.00
76.47	On-Ice SV%	84.62
0.908	PDO	0.846
16.45	Off. Zone Starts/60	1.93
14.26	Neu. Zone Starts/60	9.64
9.87	Def. Zone Starts/60	9.64
33.99	On The Fly Starts/60	57.85
62.50	Off. Zone Start %	16.67
33.99	Off. Zone Faceoffs/60	15.43
28.51	Neu. Zone Faceoffs/60	13.5
20.83	Def. Zone Faceoffs/60	15.43
62.00	Off. Zone Faceoff %	50.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Knights are a much better team than the stars? Odds on favourite to win the whole thing for a reason. Stars aren't even on the blues level if we're being honest. Why not address the fact the Makar is 5th on his team in scoring vs Hughes' second? One is clearly driving the bus more against MUCH MUCH higher quality Comp.