Magically add prime Lidstrom

[ArGarBarGar]

To me this is a push from Canadian media and some fans wanting to claim they are seeing somebody ranking that high.

I mean I can tell you right now Crosby is drawing dead barring something miraculous and the last two years isn't bad, but honestly I don't see it. He isn't jumping Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe, Beliveau, Hasek, Jagr. Honestly as high as I can see him going and currently he would be behind Hull, Messier, Lidstrom... Probably Roy and Harvey maybe Bourque and Espo. In any event I do think he has moved beyond the Yzerman, Trottier, Sakic, Bossy group. He can catch some but he isn't better than Jagr for me and he isn't getting higher so I just don't understand how he rises above 8th. It is very early but McDavid I think actually has the ability to change this but time will tell.

I don't even consider goaltenders because it is a completely different game. I also don't think the Hull/Messier/Lidstrom tier is ahead of him. As far as Beliveau and Jagr? Meh, at the end of the day I think he is projected to end up ahead of those two.

Either way, he is in a tier by himself compared to 99.9% of the league. Using a roster that centers around him as an example is going to have problems.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't even consider goaltenders because it is a completely different game. I also don't think the Hull/Messier/Lidstrom tier is ahead of him. As far as Beliveau and Jagr? Meh, at the end of the day I think he is projected to end up ahead of those two.

Either way, he is in a tier by himself compared to 99.9% of the league. Using a roster that centers around him as an example is going to have problems.

If Crosby goes down next year and isn't the same which isn't ridiculous to say. I certainly do not wish that. But how is he up above those guys. It will be very hard for him to do, but honestly a couple of late cups and 900 goals and Ovie can still pass him from within his own generation. He is a guy at least chasing being the undisputed greatest at something.

Not sure how he passes Beliveau and Jagr at all. Both guys are just flat out better players to me. But he does have time left to change that narrative, we will see what he does with it. I don't think he is a guy that ages that well. I think he drops off in a way similar to Messier in his Vancouver onwards days.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'm not going to go down a lengthy discussion about it, because that wasn't even my point.

Put him top-15 for all I care. Top-20, even. The point revolves around the fact he is a ridiculous talent that you should not plan for or build around. And behind him was another ridiculously talented center, which makes the prospect of building that kind of roster without an elite defenseman slim to almost nil.

The 2017 Penguins were an exception, not the norm.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm not going to go down a lengthy discussion about it, because that wasn't even my point.

Put him top-15 for all I care. Top-20, even. The point revolves around the fact he is a ridiculous talent that you should not plan for or build around. And behind him was another ridiculously talented center, which makes the prospect of building that kind of roster without an elite defenseman slim to almost nil.

The 2017 Penguins were an exception, not the norm.

Agree and in one of those Cup runs the Smythe should have gone to their legitimate #1 D-man in Letang. Kessel is a likely HHOF.

Is Letang hurt a lot, did they patch through without him in last years run, sure. The Penguins were also outplayed in large stretches of that run. It wasn't their post-season from the year before, it was one of the weaker cup winners I can remember actually. Because they went back to back I think that is lost, but they were outplayed a lot during that run which is pretty atypical for a Cup winner.

 

[chances14]

funny thing is this years version of the penguins isn't any different than what we saw in the playoffs imo. only difference is their goaltending has been terrible.

While i think both an elite center and defnseman are required for your typical cup winner, I would choose the defensman as being the most important

 

[Oddbob]

You can look at the effect a Ryan Suter had on Minnesota. Minnesota's best centermen are Mikko Koivu and Mikael Granlund. They're good, but not especially great. They're probably Flip/late 90s Larionov level. They went from a run of 4 years out of the playoffs to making it 5 years consecutively with Suter and Parise.

Suter plays about half the game just like Lidstrom would and he's a somewhat lesser defenseman than what Prime Lidstrom is.

Did you seriously just put Suter in Lidstrom's camp? Suter is no where even close to Lidstrom level, and it is a massively wide gap. The only thing Suter does better than Lidstrom is physical play, and Lids never needed to be physical because he was too busy having the puck 80% of the time, and dominating. Lidstrom was a 60-80 point defenceman for nearly 20 years, while helping control the play unlike most other d-men ever!

 

[TheMule93]

Did you seriously just put Suter in Lidstrom's camp? Suter is no where even close to Lidstrom level, and it is a massively wide gap. The only thing Suter does better than Lidstrom is physical play, and Lids never needed to be physical because he was too busy having the puck 80% of the time, and dominating. Lidstrom was a 60-80 point defenceman for nearly 20 years, while helping control the play unlike most other d-men ever!

He said Suter was a lesser defenseman than Lidstrom. All he did was provide an example of the effect an elite two-way 1D has on a team.

 

[Oddbob]

He said Suter was a lesser defenseman than Lidstrom. All he did was provide an example of the effect an elite two-way 1D has on a team.

Yeah, but he said somewhat, which puts them quite close to each other, when Suter is nowhere close. Obviously I get his point about having a good d on the backend, just a very odd comparison given the players involved.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, but he said somewhat, which puts them quite close to each other, when Suter is nowhere close. Obviously I get his point about having a good d on the backend, just a very odd comparison given the players involved.

So I shouldn't have included the word somewhat. The main point still stands. Suter is a legitimate #1D and as such was one of the biggest parts of making the Wild who were drifting into complete irrelevance a playoff team.