Magically add prime Lidstrom

[The Zetterberg Era]

Nick Lidstrom was at his peak in around 2001 and 2002.
He was a great defenseman -- perhaps the best player in the NHL at that time. (Either him or Forsberg).

But come on. If Lidstrom was such a god -- so great that he'd singlehandedly turn a bottom 6 NHL team into a playoff team and maybe more, then how in the **** did the Red Wings lose in round 1 in 2000 and 2003 - the prime of Lidstrom's career.

Hockey is still a team game. It's not so easy to add a man to a roster and say "There's X wins and X points."

A hot goalie can and will win a series. They lost in the playoffs didn't they, you know something he never missed once...

I didn't say they would win the cup, what I said is Nick Lidstrom could drag teams to the playoffs. Since the guy never missed I don't really need to point to much more than that. But he dominated the game, he controlled over half the proceedings. In this parity league, I think he could push a team towards the playoffs. There is a lot to say over 82 games he could night in and night out impact the standings in a way where a hot Giggy might not be his undoing. He dominated the league for 20 years, it took some people time to catch up, but the Wings were saying it for longer than the media.

 

[Redder Winger]

A hot goalie can and will win a series. They lost in the playoffs didn't they, you know something he never missed once...

I didn't say they would win the cup, what I said is Nick Lidstrom could drag teams to the playoffs. Since the guy never missed I don't really need to point to much more than that. But he dominated the game, he controlled over half the proceedings. In this parity league, I think he could push a team towards the playoffs. There is a lot to say over 82 games he could night in and night out impact the standings in a way where a hot Giggy might not be his undoing. He dominated the league for 20 years, it took some people time to catch up, but the Wings were saying it for longer than the media.

It wasn't just GIggy. it was also Felix Potvin, he of the .898 save percentage in the 6-game series against Detroit.

The point is that the best defenseman in the league isn't infallible and unbeatable.


If Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg develop into Filppula and Hudler instead of Hall of Famers, Lidstrom wasn't going to drag that team anywhere.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Nick Lidstrom was at his peak in around 2001 and 2002.
He was a great defenseman -- perhaps the best player in the NHL at that time. (Either him or Forsberg).

But come on. If Lidstrom was such a god -- so great that he'd singlehandedly turn a bottom 6 NHL team into a playoff team and maybe more, then how in the **** did the Red Wings lose in round 1 in 2000 and 2003 - the prime of Lidstrom's career.

Hockey is still a team game. It's not so easy to add a man to a roster and say "There's X wins and X points."

How did they lose? They lost 4 1-goal games to the LA Kings in 2000. Osgood ran a .905 sv% in those games. They lost 4 1-goal games to the Anaheim Mighty Ducks in 2003. That was in the middle of Giguere's Conn Smythe run where he had a .945 sv% for the playoffs. It was 2-1, 3-2, 2-1, 3-2.

And in the Wings season so far... they've had 17 of their losses where they lost by 2 goals or less. 11 of those were 1 goal losses. Things look one hell of a lot different for this team if you run out a legit hall of fame defenseman in those games. Going by prime Lidstrom's stats (2000-2001), he was a .86 PPG player. Even if you were to take Mike Green off the roster and just plug in Lidstrom for that role, going by his average, you're adding 13 goals (39 points v Green's current 26) to the offensive side. Lidstrom's career Corsi is about 10% higher than Green's 17-18 number. So, the other team would have the puck a great deal less, so it is quite likely the GA goes down. Plug him in for DDK and the impact is even greater.

It isn't that Lidstrom is so godly that he'll raise a garbage team to the playoffs... it's that he and an elite centerman are the two pieces the Wings are truly missing. They have plenty of great depth guys who likely take steps forward if you put elite talent on the roster.

 

[Redder Winger]

How did they lose? They lost 4 1-goal games to the LA Kings in 2000. Osgood ran a .905 sv% in those games. They lost 4 1-goal games to the Anaheim Mighty Ducks in 2003. That was in the middle of Giguere's Conn Smythe run where he had a .945 sv% for the playoffs. It was 2-1, 3-2, 2-1, 3-2.

And in the Wings season so far... they've had 17 of their losses where they lost by 2 goals or less. 11 of those were 1 goal losses. Things look one hell of a lot different for this team if you run out a legit hall of fame defenseman in those games. Going by prime Lidstrom's stats (2000-2001), he was a .86 PPG player. Even if you were to take Mike Green off the roster and just plug in Lidstrom for that role, going by his average, you're adding 13 goals (39 points v Green's current 26) to the offensive side. Lidstrom's career Corsi is about 10% higher than Green's 17-18 number. So, the other team would have the puck a great deal less, so it is quite likely the GA goes down. Plug him in for DDK and the impact is even greater.

It isn't that Lidstrom is so godly that he'll raise a garbage team to the playoffs... it's that he and an elite centerman are the two pieces the Wings are truly missing. They have plenty of great depth guys who likely take steps forward if you put elite talent on the roster.

Ozzie lost to Felix Potvin, Mr. .898 sv pct.

And citing one-goal losses as evidence of anything is silly.
Teams are content to play close games and try to win 2-1 or 1-0 or 3-2.
Some of it is parity.
But some of it is that's how teams play. They play for the close game. Low-event hockey.

And I agree with you. You add an elite D and an elite C - and now you're probably a lot closer

But again - that's more than one D. That's a D and C. Now you're asking for two magic unicorns.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It wasn't just GIggy. it was also Felix Potvin, he of the .898 save percentage in the 6-game series against Detroit.

The point is that the best defenseman in the league isn't infallible and unbeatable.


If Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg develop into Filppula and Hudler instead of Hall of Famers, Lidstrom wasn't going to drag that team anywhere.

No, he isn't infallible. But... he also, on average, gives you a much better chance in any game he plays in. The thing is, the Wings were only truly non-competitive in about 10-15 games of 45 this year. The other 30, if you swap out even our best defenseman Mike Green for prime Lidstrom, based on his career averages, you are adding 0.25 ppg and turning the possession numbers as a whole in a big way.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How did they lose? They lost 4 1-goal games to the LA Kings in 2000. Osgood ran a .905 sv% in those games. They lost 4 1-goal games to the Anaheim Mighty Ducks in 2003. That was in the middle of Giguere's Conn Smythe run where he had a .945 sv% for the playoffs. It was 2-1, 3-2, 2-1, 3-2.

And in the Wings season so far... they've had 17 of their losses where they lost by 2 goals or less. 11 of those were 1 goal losses. Things look one hell of a lot different for this team if you run out a legit hall of fame defenseman in those games. Going by prime Lidstrom's stats (2000-2001), he was a .86 PPG player. Even if you were to take Mike Green off the roster and just plug in Lidstrom for that role, going by his average, you're adding 13 goals (39 points v Green's current 26) to the offensive side. Lidstrom's career Corsi is about 10% higher than Green's 17-18 number. So, the other team would have the puck a great deal less, so it is quite likely the GA goes down. Plug him in for DDK and the impact is even greater.

It isn't that Lidstrom is so godly that he'll raise a garbage team to the playoffs... it's that he and an elite centerman are the two pieces the Wings are truly missing. They have plenty of great depth guys who likely take steps forward if you put elite talent on the roster.

I am not sure prime Lidstrom cannot make the bottom two teams in the league right now a playoff team. I mean drop him on Buffalo and slide everyone down a notch, heck let Risto play the 30 minutes with him and Eichel up front what do you think that team is. Drop Lidstrom in Arizona and slide the pieces around the lineup.

I am not sure why you would need to take the best players they have off to make this argument. It wasn't where it was started and despite the effort to change that narrative it isn't what I am discussing. I think Nick Lidstrom in his prime could propel a team to the playoffs in this league. His impact over 82 games while playing 30 minutes is massive especially over the course of the season.

Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg didn't make Nick Lidstrom, Yzerman was saying he was the best player on the team while Fedorov was winning the heart and during their first trip to the Stanley Cup Finals. Lidstrom was the greatest Wings player our generation has seen and that is really saying something. That guy can lift even bad teams to the post-season.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I am not sure prime Lidstrom cannot make the bottom two teams in the league right now a playoff team. I mean drop him on Buffalo and slide everyone down a notch, heck let Risto play the 30 minutes with him and Eichel up front what do you think that team is. Drop Lidstrom in Arizona and slide the pieces around the lineup.

I am not sure why you would need to take the best players they have off to make this argument. It wasn't where it was started and despite the effort to change that narrative it isn't what I am discussing. I think Nick Lidstrom in his prime could propel a team to the playoffs in this league. His impact over 82 games while playing 30 minutes is massive on the course of the season.

Oh, ok. I was trying to include the cap into the discussion. Like you couldn't just drop prime Lidstrom on this roster right now and still be cap compliant. You'd need to take out a player to do so. That's why I picked Green... and also to show how much better on average he was than our current top guy. Green is having a good year so far... and he's still a good bit behind what Lidstrom did on average.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oh, ok. I was trying to include the cap into the discussion. Like you couldn't just drop prime Lidstrom on this roster right now and still be cap compliant. You'd need to take out a player to do so. That's why I picked Green... and also to show how much better on average he was than our current top guy. Green is having a good year so far... and he's still a good bit behind what Lidstrom did on average.

The second line in the OP says without making other changes. It isn't looking at the cap. If I just dropped Nick Lidstrom on this team or any team in the league at the pinnacle of his game that is humongous. Think of it this way when NHL guys and the Wings are not alone talk about being 2% better is the difference. Blashill, Babs, Holland, Lou Lam, Stan Bowman yada yada yade love that phrase. Lidstrom makes you more than 2% better, he is one of the more massive shifts you can put on your team in the history of hockey. Putting one of the smartest and most complete players in the history of the game in all three zones with a machine like consistency is going to make a massive impact. Our teams were great, but sometimes I think people lost the individual greatness a little bit.

Like how Ozzie leaves Detroit and takes teams missing the playoffs into the playoffs. I mean the guys had big impacts, they were quality players and I would rank Lidstrom as the most massive in terms of that department. He completely controlled games.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg develop into Filppula and Hudler instead of Hall of Famers, Lidstrom wasn't going to drag that team anywhere.

Larkin is already better than Filppula/Hudler though, and Z is still pretty good. Our forward group is solid. We’d be a playoff team with Lidstrom, no doubt imo.

 

[turkleton85]

We can't really do this with Lidstrom, but we can look at Pronger. He goes to Edmonton and they go to the Finals after missing the playoffs the previous season. His first year in Anaheim they win a cup. His first year in Philly, and at this point he's 34 years old, Philly goes to the Finals. Truly great D transform teams and organizations.

Lids would lock down half of every game on the schedule. He'd quarterback the power play. He'd lead the PK. He'd shelter a less than stellar partner as he did with White, Dandeneult, Lilja, and Bykov (am I missing someone? Ericsson?). Then he'd win a Norris while doing it. And now teams couldn't even try wearing him down with physical play. They would try desperately to grind him down. In this softer league? I could see him handling even more IT than he did in the 90s/00s.

tough to predict, since speed has probably increased in the same amount physicality has decreased. But even if his IT wouldn't increase, 27-30 minutes of lidstrom would drastically alter the team. Although i'm not sure if blashill wouldn't still prefer kronwall on the PP

 

[TheOtherOne]

Thanks for the good discussion all.

I should have done a poll, but i didn't, so how about a verbal poll for whoever's still following the thread?

What are the chances this team plays in the Finals?
A: No
B: not likely
C: 50-50
D: probably
E: definitely

I think i would say C personally.

 

[turkleton85]

i'd say B. Tough to talk in absolutes in an scenario like this, especially with a team like Vegas being #1 in the NHL all of a sudden. Still, after Lidstrom the team wouldn't have a lot of defenders that would play on other teams lineups, and the young forwards have almost no playoff experience.

Blashill in the finals is also something that does not feel right/realistic

 

[Fear]

Thanks for the good discussion all.

I should have done a poll, but i didn't, so how about a verbal poll for whoever's still following the thread?

What are the chances this team plays in the Finals?
A: No
B: not likely
C: 50-50
D: probably
E: definitely

I think i would say C personally.

That's a bold claim, Lidstrom played in 6 finals in his career. If we say his prime contained all of those appearances except the New Jersey one (being generous), thats 5 finals in 11 years, less than 50-50. Do you think this team + Lidstrom is better than the average Detroit team between 1998-2009?

 

[Redder Winger]

I am not sure prime Lidstrom cannot make the bottom two teams in the league right now a playoff team. I mean drop him on Buffalo and slide everyone down a notch, heck let Risto play the 30 minutes with him and Eichel up front what do you think that team is. Drop Lidstrom in Arizona and slide the pieces around the lineup.

I am not sure why you would need to take the best players they have off to make this argument. It wasn't where it was started and despite the effort to change that narrative it isn't what I am discussing. I think Nick Lidstrom in his prime could propel a team to the playoffs in this league. His impact over 82 games while playing 30 minutes is massive especially over the course of the season.

Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg didn't make Nick Lidstrom, Yzerman was saying he was the best player on the team while Fedorov was winning the heart and during their first trip to the Stanley Cup Finals. Lidstrom was the greatest Wings player our generation has seen and that is really saying something. That guy can lift even bad teams to the post-season.

I'll take Datsyuk, Fedorov and Yzerman over Lidstrom every day of the week.
And I don't mean that as a rip on Lidstrom.

I've always believed elite, two-way centers are the path to glory.

 

[Redder Winger]

Like how Ozzie leaves Detroit and takes teams missing the playoffs into the playoffs. I mean the guys had big impacts, they were quality players and I would rank Lidstrom as the most massive in terms of that department. He completely controlled games.

Come on.
It was Osgood, eh?
Never mind the team got Yashin.
Never mind the team got Mike Peca, the Selke winner.
They had a defense with Hamrlik, Aucoin, Johnsson and Tarnstrom.

How about the new rookie coach? Peter Laviolette.

No, it was Osgood.
A player so great the Islanders shipped him away for peanuts the next year.

Come on.

 

[Frk It]

I would rank Lidstrom as the most massive in terms of that department. He completely controlled games.

Facts.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'll take Datsyuk, Fedorov and Yzerman over Lidstrom every day of the week.
And I don't mean that as a rip on Lidstrom.

I've always believed elite, two-way centers are the path to glory.

Do you mean the three of them combined? If so then I agree with you.

But if you're saying any one of them, as much as it pains me, I disagree. Lidstrom is one of the top 5 best D-men in the history of the game. He was elite for 20+ years. I love all those guys, but none of them are forwards of that caliber.

 

[Redder Winger]

Do you mean the three of them combined? If so then I agree with you.

But if you're saying any one of them, as much as it pains me, I disagree. Lidstrom is one of the top 5 best D-men in the history of the game. He was elite for 20+ years. I love all those guys, but none of them are forwards of that caliber.

Datsyuk is the best two-way center I've ever seen.
Fedorov is right there beside him.

People can talk about Gretzky and Lemieux, but those guys weren't required or even asked to play defense. It's like comparing Paul Coffey to Lidstrom.
Sure, they play the same position. But not really.

 

[Frk It]

Datsyuk is the best two-way center I've ever seen.
Fedorov is right there beside him.

People can talk about Gretzky and Lemieux, but those guys weren't required or even asked to play defense. It's like comparing Paul Coffey to Lidstrom.
Sure, they play the same position. But not really.

Not sure how old you are, but Lidstrom isn't the best two way defenseman you have ever seen?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Datsyuk is the best two-way center I've ever seen.
Fedorov is right there beside him.

People can talk about Gretzky and Lemieux, but those guys weren't required or even asked to play defense. It's like comparing Paul Coffey to Lidstrom.
Sure, they play the same position. But not really.

If you saw Fedorov play, then Datsyuk isn't the best two way center you've ever seen. But that's another discussion.

Lidstrom was an elite defenseman for much if not all of his 20 year career. Having that kind of player on the ice for 23+ minutes a game for 20 years beats any contribution you get from any one of those other guys individually.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

There is a reason the Wings' run of dominance basically began and ended as Lidstrom's career did.

 

[Redder Winger]

If you saw Fedorov play, then Datsyuk isn't the best two way center you've ever seen. But that's another discussion.

Yeah, I saw Fedorov play. And I saw Datsyuk play.
And as great as Fedorov was, nobody beats Datsyuk, in my mind.

Lidstrom was an elite defenseman for much if not all of his 20 year career. Having that kind of player on the ice for 23+ minutes a game for 20 years beats any contribution you get from any one of those other guys individually.

You're entitled to your opinion.
Dynamic centers rule the hockey world.

It's been this way as long as I can remember.

The Penguins won with virtually no talent on their blueline last year.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

One or two cases of a team winning without a superstar defender doesn't make your argument the way you think it does. It is like citing the 2006 Hurricanes as a reason you need a superstar goaltender to win in the NHL.

The Penguins case doesn't entirely make your argument, either, considering Crosby is slated to be a top 5 PLAYER all time and with another top 50 minimum all time center behind him makes for a deadly combination. That kind of roster is not the norm and should not be cited as the blueprint for success.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well if you think Datsyuk was better than Fedorov I think I now understand why this argument is still going on in your head. I guess the argument can be made, I think there is a bigger argument that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk than trying to compare Datsyuk to Fedorov who for me is a clear cut tier above both.

I think the Hawks who have always been driven more by Keith and Kane are an interesting point on the centers ruling the world. I mean is Toews a really good player and likely HHOF, sure, but he isn't dynamic hence all the intangibles jokes. They have generally been miserable at the #2 C position as well.

Quick name the first line center when the Ducks won their title? Andy McDonald was the front man still over a young Getzlaf really. How about the strength down the middle in New Jersey a team driven by their defensive studs and a great winger in Elias. Hey I guess Arnott and Holik are all timers maybe. There are points to be made that there are teams that were strong in net and D that have advanced far.

But again now we are on some cup run thought process. Does dropping Lidstrom onto a team tomorrow in the league without subtraction from their roster not make them monumentally better. They guy that Rob Blake and Scott Niedermayer say controlled the flow of play more than any player they played against.... I think it has a humongous impact. They are a playoff team and have a punchers chance to advance, say they draw Boston this year and Lidstrom completely erases Pasta-Bergeron-Marchand well Boston is probably going home. Superstars can flat out control a playoff series and have. Lidstrom took the most physically dominating line I have ever seen and crushed them in a Stanley Cup finals series. Yes the rest of the team played well, but he erased Prime Lindros before all the injuries which was at the time thought impossible.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

One or two cases of a team winning without a superstar defender doesn't make your argument the way you think it does. It is like citing the 2006 Hurricanes as a reason you need a superstar goaltender to win in the NHL.

The Penguins case doesn't entirely make your argument, either, considering Crosby is slated to be a top 5 PLAYER all time and with another top 50 minimum all time center behind him makes for a deadly combination. That kind of roster is not the norm and should not be cited as the blueprint for success.

To me this is a push from Canadian media and some fans wanting to claim they are seeing somebody ranking that high.

I mean I can tell you right now Crosby is drawing dead barring something miraculous and the last two years isn't bad, but honestly I don't see it. He isn't jumping Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe, Beliveau, Hasek, Jagr. Honestly as high as I can see him going and currently he would be behind Hull, Messier, Lidstrom... Probably Roy and Harvey maybe Bourque and Espo. In any event I do think he has moved beyond the Yzerman, Trottier, Sakic, Bossy group. He can catch some but he isn't better than Jagr for me and he isn't getting higher so I just don't understand how he rises above 8th. It is very early but McDavid I think actually has the ability to change this but time will tell.