Magically add prime Lidstrom

TheOtherOne

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I know this question is kind of dumb, but I've been mulling it over and I think it's interesting to think about.

Exactly what impact would Lidstrom have on the current team with no other changes?

It's easy to say he would win us a Cup instantly because he has hockey god status, but realistically, he did miss Cups in the past with better teams. And he's only one person. And there are a lot more complaints about our team than the defense, although the defense is easily the most important problem right now.

Does it make us a Cup contender? A mediocre playoff team? A bubble playoff team?

The biggest impact is he gives all our other defenders easier assignments, of course. He plays 30 minutes against Crosby and suddenly maybe lesser guys look better as they're no longer in over their heads.

Lidstrom - Green
Dekeyser - Daley
Kronwall - Ericsson

or

Lidstrom - Ericsson
Green - Dekeyser
Kronwall - Daley

or what?

If our top unit can go toe to toe against anyone in the league, does Green score even more points against easier opponents? Do both our goalies suddenly look 10x better? Or are they still a weak link?

How would it affect our forwards? Would net-front guys like Abby suddenly be scoring goals regularly? Would our possession game suddenly be tops in the league? Would Larkin Mantha AA benefit more from elite passing? Would we have 2 defensemen on a powerplay unit?

The point of this thread isn't really to answer specific questions, I'm just posing them as starting points. Just discuss whatever comes to mind. I just think it's interesting to explore exactly how much impact 1 single player can have, when he is one of the greatest of all time.
 

Pavels Dog

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He'd make us a mediocre playoff team or something of the sort.

Lidstrom-Green would be a very good top pairing. It would slide Dekeyser into a more well-defined #3D role with easier minutes where he's not in over his head all the time.

Most importantly when you have a guy like Lidstrom, you have the best d-man on the ice for 50% of the game. He'd help the PK, he'd help the PP, he'd help breakouts, he'd help transition, he'd help in every facet of the game.

Larkin and AA would be set up for breakaways and 2-on-1s more often thanks to Lidstrom's breakout passes. Our possession game would drastically improve because Lidstrom's so good at taking back pucks and keeping it.

However, we'd still have a mediocre-at-best coaching group, and too many of our players are either declining or developing for us to be true contenders.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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We are a playoff team. Prime Lidstrom played half the game.

Lidstrom would play with a right handed partner, but he could make Jensen a good partner. We are talking about a guy that routinely took people that were out of hockey soon after and gave them career years.

Dropping the second best D-man (my opinion) in the history of the game onto a team has a significant impact. There is a reason Lidstrom never missed the playoffs he controlled the flow of the game and made us significantly better his entire career. The best version of him absolutely drags this team to the playoffs, he was that good.
 

datsyukfan

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He'd make us a mediocre playoff team or something of the sort.

Lidstrom-Green would be a very good top pairing. It would slide Dekeyser into a more well-defined #3D role with easier minutes where he's not in over his head all the time.

Most importantly when you have a guy like Lidstrom, you have the best d-man on the ice for 50% of the game. He'd help the PK, he'd help the PP, he'd help breakouts, he'd help transition, he'd help in every facet of the game.

Larkin and AA would be set up for breakaways and 2-on-1s more often thanks to Lidstrom's breakout passes. Our possession game would drastically improve because Lidstrom's so good at taking back pucks and keeping it.

However, we'd still have a mediocre-at-best coaching group, and too many of our players are either declining or developing for us to be true contenders.

I agree with that. But I think that’s where we are at. Our forward corps while not the best I think is good enough in the right system where you play puck possession and have d. The problem is that the defense is terrible like beyond bad that it kills everyone else and blashill imo plays a terrible system where it only hurts the team that much more. D wins you championships imo opinion and our d corps isnt even close. I like hickets, cholo, Hronek, and Saarijarvi I think that can be a great bottom 4 but we still need those top 2 guys to be elite. That’s why dahlin would be massive, he’s a 1 while the kids rest in the top 10 are probably 2’s you get the one and you are looking good. That’s why it is vital we fall for dahlin
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I agree with that. But I think that’s where we are at. Our forward corps while not the best I think is good enough in the right system where you play puck possession and have d. The problem is that the defense is terrible like beyond bad that it kills everyone else and blashill imo plays a terrible system where it only hurts the team that much more. D wins you championships imo opinion and our d corps isnt even close. I like hickets, cholo, Hronek, and Saarijarvi I think that can be a great bottom 4 but we still need those top 2 guys to be elite. That’s why dahlin would be massive, he’s a 1 while the kids rest in the top 10 are probably 2’s you get the one and you are looking good. That’s why it is vital we fall for dahlin

So say you give Lidstrom I don't know we will call him the Ian White signing. Not him anymore, but we pick a right handed D-man Lidstrom recommends. Now you drop Green into the second pairing and what is that for 50 minutes a game we have a D-man that can actually make correct passing decisions and break the zone. All of a sudden Blashill's system doesn't look nearly as bad, we can play fast transition hockey which has been his teams hallmarks at other levels just like his close friend Jon Cooper. We have never really been setup to play Blashill's system here because our D is terrible at passing.

I think we will find out what Blashill's true system is somewhere down the road. He would be smart to wait on his next opportunity and be sure he has good puck movers before he takes his next NHL job because that will be his last chance.
 

datsyukfan

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So say you give Lidstrom I don't know we will call him the Ian White signing. Not him anymore, but we pick a right handed D-man Lidstrom recommends. Now you drop Green into the second pairing and what is that for 50 minutes a game we have a D-man that can actually make correct passing decisions and break the zone. All of a sudden Blashill's system doesn't look nearly as bad, we can play fast transition hockey which has been his teams hallmarks at other levels just like his close friend Jon Cooper. We have never really been setup to play Blashill's system here because our D is terrible at passing.

I think we will find out what Blashill's true system is somewhere down the road. He would be smart to wait on his next opportunity and be sure he has good puck movers before he takes his next NHL job because that will be his last chance.

Yes I thought that was his system too and maybe you are correct but doing a high flip and hoping it bounces out way is prob the dumbest thing I could ever think of. That’s what are system is high flip it out and hope a guy skates on to it it’s a joke and is not helping any of our players develop. I know we have awful d but I would hope they could make a 10-15 foot pass they are in the nhl after all. This flip and hope doesn’t work so why not try to play with structure and support all over the ice. I bet we are better
 

Redder Winger

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Lidstrom never played without hall of fame center icemen in their prime.
Yzerman. Fedorov. Datsyuk. Zetterberg.
Even the depth guys like Flip and Draper and Larionov, were either great defensively or good puck possession guys.
So it's impossible to say.
 

turkleton85

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Lidstrom never played without hall of fame center icemen in their prime.
Yzerman. Fedorov. Datsyuk. Zetterberg.
Even the depth guys like Flip and Draper and Larionov, were either great defensively or good puck possession guys.
So it's impossible to say.


although i think that by todays standard, with larkin, z and nielsen, we have a solid group of centremen, and we don't know how good larkin could be with lidstrom AND green on our defense
 

TheOtherOne

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The part I'm most curious about is how our goalies would look. Jimmy and Petr have both looked elite at times, albeit inconsistently. Is it possible putting Nick in front of one of them could give him the confidence to have a solid top 10 season? Top 5?

I also wonder how much he would "coach" our younger defenders. Maybe he could teach Jensen or Ouellet some things and they're suddenly more than borderline NHLers.
 

Henkka

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We would be a 100-point team. Don't think we would be a contender. Need also offensive prime forward.

Prime Lidström gives you a better defenceman in every position, because best becames 2nd best and former 2nd best becomes 3rd best etc.

Huge impact.
 

SpookyTsuki

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Prime lidstrom? Playoff team easily. Lidstrom - Green as the top pair? Larkin looks like an elite first liner cause of it and many many people look better. Not to mention both goalies don’t look like crap for at least 20 min

We could make the conferences finals if we got the right matchups. Unlikely but possible. But probably first round exit unless we knew how he would affect it 100%
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Lidstrom never played without hall of fame center icemen in their prime.
Yzerman. Fedorov. Datsyuk. Zetterberg.
Even the depth guys like Flip and Draper and Larionov, were either great defensively or good puck possession guys.
So it's impossible to say.

You can look at the effect a Ryan Suter had on Minnesota. Minnesota's best centermen are Mikko Koivu and Mikael Granlund. They're good, but not especially great. They're probably Flip/late 90s Larionov level. They went from a run of 4 years out of the playoffs to making it 5 years consecutively with Suter and Parise.

Suter plays about half the game just like Lidstrom would and he's a somewhat lesser defenseman than what Prime Lidstrom is.
 

Winger98

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You can look at the effect a Ryan Suter had on Minnesota. Minnesota's best centermen are Mikko Koivu and Mikael Granlund. They're good, but not especially great. They're probably Flip/late 90s Larionov level. They went from a run of 4 years out of the playoffs to making it 5 years consecutively with Suter and Parise.

Suter plays about half the game just like Lidstrom would and he's a somewhat lesser defenseman than what Prime Lidstrom is.

I don't know. The NHL is faster/bigger/whatever than when Lidstrom was in his prime. Not sure how he could be as effective. :sarcasm:
 
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Flowah

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We're *at least* a playoff team. Not a high seed but solidly in I think. Just think of how much more our speedy forwards would get sprung, how many fewer goals would get scored on us. And defensemen play more than forwards, giving him more time to make an impact. He moves every single d-man down the depth chart which strengthens us too. Our PP/PK get instantly better.

Contender? Maybe. Larkin's been one hell of a player this year. Give him one of the best d-men and passers ever on the back end and no doubt he becomes even more effective. He's still no Datsyuk or Zetterberg in their prime, but he's pretty good. Obviously any team with a 1C and 1D like Datsyuk/Lidstrom is a contender. I think Larkin/Z/Nielsen down the middle makes us just a cut below top contender status.
Need also offensive prime forward.
Larkin's getting there. If he can progress some more the following year I wouldn't feel awful about him as a 1C. He's doing so much more this season that just flying down the wing and swinging around the net. He can stop up and find passes. He's been super good and I was one of the people who thought he wouldn't be because even from his first season he hadn't really impressed me that much. This season is totally different.
 

Redder Winger

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You can look at the effect a Ryan Suter had on Minnesota. Minnesota's best centermen are Mikko Koivu and Mikael Granlund. They're good, but not especially great. They're probably Flip/late 90s Larionov level. They went from a run of 4 years out of the playoffs to making it 5 years consecutively with Suter and Parise.

Suter plays about half the game just like Lidstrom would and he's a somewhat lesser defenseman than what Prime Lidstrom is.

Right.
So you had a team that averaged 92 points a year for six years.
And now you have a team that averages 97 points a year for the last five years.

How much is that about Suter? How much Parise?
How much of that is also secondary D like Spurgeon or Dumba or Brodin?
 

Redder Winger

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We're *at least* a playoff team. Not a high seed but solidly in I think. Just think of how much more our speedy forwards would get sprung, how many fewer goals would get scored on us. And defensemen play more than forwards, giving him more time to make an impact. He moves every single d-man down the depth chart which strengthens us too. Our PP/PK get instantly better.

Contender? Maybe. Larkin's been one hell of a player this year. Give him one of the best d-men and passers ever on the back end and no doubt he becomes even more effective. He's still no Datsyuk or Zetterberg in their prime, but he's pretty good. Obviously any team with a 1C and 1D like Datsyuk/Lidstrom is a contender. I think Larkin/Z/Nielsen down the middle makes us just a cut below top contender status.

Larkin's getting there. If he can progress some more the following year I wouldn't feel awful about him as a 1C. He's doing so much more this season that just flying down the wing and swinging around the net. He can stop up and find passes. He's been super good and I was one of the people who thought he wouldn't be because even from his first season he hadn't really impressed me that much. This season is totally different.

Larkin's offense still has a ways to go to be a good 1C.
His primary point production at ES is not that hot.4

People should look at OEL. Definitely not Lidstrom's caliber. But very good for many years. And once again the Coyotes are nowhere near the playoffs.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Larkin's offense still has a ways to go to be a good 1C.
His primary point production at ES is not that hot.4

People should look at OEL. Definitely not Lidstrom's caliber. But very good for many years. And once again the Coyotes are nowhere near the playoffs.
There's the problem with that comparison.

I personally have no idea what a prime Lidstrom would do for this team. I think we get better production out of guys like Tatar and Nyquist. AA probably gets a few more breakaways because Lidstrom was that good at making a breakout pass. Larkin doesn't need to expend as much energy to generate most of the offense by himself. We probably contend for the playoffs, may even get a decent shot to win a round. But he is one man and the team has so many damn holes that we can't be consistent enough to know for sure, even if we have a top- all-time defender.
 

Flowah

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Larkin's offense still has a ways to go to be a good 1C.
He's got 36 in 45. That's a .8PPG pace. That's really not that far off. Only 19 centers did it last season. If he'd heard 4 more points in those 45 games he'd be at a .9 PPG pace which would have put him #11, above Seguin, above Tavares. Just 4 more points in 45 games. He could do it with some better linemates, a better d-corp. Hell, he might do it regardless if he improves even a little bit in the coming year.

His offense is just a smidge below the top tier of elite centers around the league.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Right.
So you had a team that averaged 92 points a year for six years.
And now you have a team that averages 97 points a year for the last five years.

How much is that about Suter? How much Parise?
How much of that is also secondary D like Spurgeon or Dumba or Brodin?

Man, you just love to cherry pick stats to help you out.

The Wings have five years of dropping points "ZOMG, the Wings are going the wrong way, they suck"
The Wild have five years of dropping points "They averaged 92 points for six years"

The Wild were crap for four years and the guys who made them good in 2006-2008 (Gaborik, Burns, Heatley, Rolston, Demitra) were gone. You are including the 98 point and 104 point years to make it look like they weren't drifting towards being awful before landing the pair.

Also, Suter as a D was top 6 in points on their roster until 15-16 when guys like Granlund started emerging. Suter was a HUGE boon to that roster. He scored within five points of Parise 3 out of 4 years. Guys like Brodin and Spurgeon and Dumba looking like good additions are also a plus for Suter's effects on the roster, not a downgrade. Same would happen in a hypothetical prime Lidstrom on the Wings. Don't have Mike Green trying to man the #1D defensive minutes and he looks a hell of a lot better. Don't run DDK as a #1 pairing guy, but let him stay in the mid pairing role that he looked pretty good in with Quincey just a couple years ago.

Larkin's offense still has a ways to go to be a good 1C.
His primary point production at ES is not that hot.4

People should look at OEL. Definitely not Lidstrom's caliber. But very good for many years. And once again the Coyotes are nowhere near the playoffs.

That is a worthless argument. OEL is nowhere near the caliber of D that Lidstrom was. And the Coyotes basically did nothing to improve their team/prepare for the age related decline or departure of guys like Keith Yandle, Shane Doan, Radim Vrbata, etc. They went from a 3 year run of 99, 97, and 107 points to garbage. Or... they actively decided to tank their roster which renders OEL's "ability to drag a team to the playoffs" kinda moot.
 
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Redder Winger

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Man, you just love to cherry pick stats to help you out.

The Wings have five years of dropping points "ZOMG, the Wings are going the wrong way, they suck"
The Wild have five years of dropping points "They averaged 92 points for six years"

The Wild were crap for four years and the guys who made them good in 2006-2008 (Gaborik, Burns, Heatley, Rolston, Demitra) were gone. You are including the 98 point and 104 point years to make it look like they weren't drifting towards being awful before landing the pair.

Also, Suter as a D was top 6 in points on their roster until 15-16 when guys like Granlund started emerging. Suter was a HUGE boon to that roster. He scored within five points of Parise 3 out of 4 years. Guys like Brodin and Spurgeon and Dumba looking like good additions are also a plus for Suter's effects on the roster, not a downgrade. Same would happen in a hypothetical prime Lidstrom on the Wings. Don't have Mike Green trying to man the #1D defensive minutes and he looks a hell of a lot better. Don't run DDK as a #1 pairing guy, but let him stay in the mid pairing role that he looked pretty good in with Quincey just a couple years ago.



That is a worthless argument. OEL is nowhere near the caliber of D that Lidstrom was. And the Coyotes basically did nothing to improve their team/prepare for the age related decline or departure of guys like Keith Yandle, Shane Doan, Radim Vrbata, etc. They went from a 3 year run of 99, 97, and 107 points to garbage. Or... they actively decided to tank their roster which renders OEL's "ability to drag a team to the playoffs" kinda moot.


1) Whatever you say.
The Wild weren't good - but they weren't awful either, for the most part.
And it's not like they've been great. They've merely gone from below average to above average.

And you can't pin it all on Suter.
They got Parise. They developed Brodin and Dumba.

2) Right. So OEL could help a decent team get to the playoffs. But he's not capable of turning a bad team into a good team.

There have been plenty of high quality NHL defensemen, Norris caliber defensemen and HOF defensemen who couldn't turn crap teams into cup teams.
 

kliq

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I think adding Lidstrom to this team instantly makes us a playoff team, but not a contender. This team's problem is obvious, we lack elite talent and everyone is pretty much playing a line or pairing above what they should be playing. Add a Lidstrom we become a playoff team, add a Lidstrom and an Yzerman and we become cup contenders.

With the parity now a days, a couple players like that will make all the difference in the world.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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1) Whatever you say.
The Wild weren't good - but they weren't awful either, for the most part.
And it's not like they've been great. They've merely gone from below average to above average.

And you can't pin it all on Suter.
They got Parise. They developed Brodin and Dumba.

2) Right. So OEL could help a decent team get to the playoffs. But he's not capable of turning a bad team into a good team.

There have been plenty of high quality NHL defensemen, Norris caliber defensemen and HOF defensemen who couldn't turn crap teams into cup teams.

Nick Lidstrom isn't merely a Norris Caliber D-man he has the second most in history and he isn't even your average HOF D-man again he in my opinion is the second best to ever do it at that position. He has the longest playoff participation streak in the league without ever missing the playoffs. He played with two different generations of the Wings while cementing that legacy really. I don't think Nick Lidstrom could play on a team and not have a profound impact on the proceedings.

This sums it up pretty well back when ESPN occasionally covered hockey and had Custance.

Custance: Lidstrom subtly transformed Wings in Hall of Fame career

There just aren't many people to compare him to. His impact on the game was incredible. He is the guy all of those talented HOF guys from Yzerman to Bowman to the next generation of Zetterberg and Datsyuk pointed to as the principle reason for their success, the driving force behind their possession dominance for years in Detroit. I wouldn't be surprised if prime Lidstrom could control the puck for half the game with the Buffalo Sabres or Phoenix Coyotes tomorrow.
 

Redder Winger

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Nick Lidstrom isn't merely a Norris Caliber D-man he has the second most in history and he isn't even your average HOF D-man again he in my opinion is the second best to ever do it at that position. He has the longest playoff participation streak in the league without ever missing the playoffs. He played with two different generations of the Wings while cementing that legacy really. I don't think Nick Lidstrom could play on a team and not have a profound impact on the proceedings.

This sums it up pretty well back when ESPN occasionally covered hockey and had Custance.

Custance: Lidstrom subtly transformed Wings in Hall of Fame career

There just aren't many people to compare him to. His impact on the game was incredible. He is the guy all of those talented HOF guys from Yzerman to Bowman to the next generation of Zetterberg and Datsyuk pointed to as the principle reason for their success, the driving force behind their possession dominance for years in Detroit. I wouldn't be surprised if prime Lidstrom could control the puck for half the game with the Buffalo Sabres or Phoenix Coyotes tomorrow.

Nick Lidstrom was at his peak in around 2001 and 2002.
He was a great defenseman -- perhaps the best player in the NHL at that time. (Either him or Forsberg).

But come on. If Lidstrom was such a god -- so great that he'd singlehandedly turn a bottom 6 NHL team into a playoff team and maybe more, then how in the f*** did the Red Wings lose in round 1 in 2000 and 2003 - the prime of Lidstrom's career.

Hockey is still a team game. It's not so easy to add a man to a roster and say "There's X wins and X points."
 

Winger98

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Nick Lidstrom isn't merely a Norris Caliber D-man he has the second most in history and he isn't even your average HOF D-man again he in my opinion is the second best to ever do it at that position. He has the longest playoff participation streak in the league without ever missing the playoffs. He played with two different generations of the Wings while cementing that legacy really. I don't think Nick Lidstrom could play on a team and not have a profound impact on the proceedings.

This sums it up pretty well back when ESPN occasionally covered hockey and had Custance.

Custance: Lidstrom subtly transformed Wings in Hall of Fame career

There just aren't many people to compare him to. His impact on the game was incredible. He is the guy all of those talented HOF guys from Yzerman to Bowman to the next generation of Zetterberg and Datsyuk pointed to as the principle reason for their success, the driving force behind their possession dominance for years in Detroit. I wouldn't be surprised if prime Lidstrom could control the puck for half the game with the Buffalo Sabres or Phoenix Coyotes tomorrow.

We can't really do this with Lidstrom, but we can look at Pronger. He goes to Edmonton and they go to the Finals after missing the playoffs the previous season. His first year in Anaheim they win a cup. His first year in Philly, and at this point he's 34 years old, Philly goes to the Finals. Truly great D transform teams and organizations.

Lids would lock down half of every game on the schedule. He'd quarterback the power play. He'd lead the PK. He'd shelter a less than stellar partner as he did with White, Dandeneult, Lilja, and Bykov (am I missing someone? Ericsson?). Then he'd win a Norris while doing it. And now teams couldn't even try wearing him down with physical play. They would try desperately to grind him down. In this softer league? I could see him handling even more IT than he did in the 90s/00s.
 

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