GDT: Lightning and Pens @ Johnstown - 7PM?

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Very interesting, Jiggy. I didn't play hockey at a high enough level (and was a forward, at that) to have been coached to that degree, regarding those chips off the boards during an aggressive forecheck. While I know just what you are talking about, you are right -- that's a bit more subtle of a skill that I wouldn't immediately focus on or look for, when evaluating a young d-man. Thanks for pointing it out, and expanding my understanding of defensive subtleties that young players often struggle with...

I was a fwd as well, but I played defense when I was younger and would do it in a pinch when my teams needed me to.

You have to stay on your man, but you need to use your peripheral vision to see your outlets so you can quickly move the puck when it comes to you. If you wait to make that decision, you end up looking like DP does now.

There are just tons of little things you have to learn. If you are going to chase behind the net, always chase the man with the puck out on his backhand. Always focus on the chest, not the puck. Never show the entire length of your stick until you sucker the puck carrier in too close. The boards are your friend. Never give up the middle. Angle angle angle. If you have to go in transition when defending a rush, you are in trouble.

A lot of the game is played in your head like a chess match when you are on defense. You have to be thinking 2-3 steps ahead or you are going to get pissed on and look like a tool. It takes a supreme amount of confidence to play the position well, which is why DP looks to me like a guy who needs his swagger back.

 

[steveg]

I was a fwd as well, but I played defense when I was younger and would do it in a pinch when my teams needed me to.

You have to stay on your man, but you need to use your peripheral vision to see your outlets so you can quickly move the puck when it comes to you. If you wait to make that decision, you end up looking like DP does now.

There are just tons of little things you have to learn. If you are going to chase behind the net, always chase the man with the puck out on his backhand. Always focus on the chest, not the puck. Never show the entire length of your stick until you sucker the puck carrier in too close. The boards are your friend. Never give up the middle. Angle angle angle. If you have to go in transition when defending a rush, you are in trouble.

A lot of the game is played in your head like a chess match when you are on defense. You have to be thinking 2-3 steps ahead or you are going to get pissed on and look like a tool. It takes a supreme amount of confidence to play the position well, which is why DP looks to me like a guy who needs his swagger back.

Very interesting stuff; sounds like you played at a pretty high level. Care to talk about it?

One regret I have in life is not starting hockey at a younger age. It's a sport I wish I'd have focused my attention on -- but baseball and golf got my attention at an age I needed to be skating. I started way too late to "catch up." It's a shame, because after playing for several years, it's my favorite sport by far...

I sure hope you are right, in that it's lost "swagger" that's part of the issue with DP...I'm just not sure where he "lost it." You'd have thought he'd have been flying pretty high after getting the amount of ice time he did with the Pens last season, and largely acquitting himself decently in some pressure games. Somewhere, over the summer, something happened...because he sure doesn't seem to be playing with assertiveness.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I wouldn't do that trade at the moment.

If we're trading Pouliot, I'd rather package him and get something substantial in return.

I think a cost controlled physical #3/4 D who can skate and is good in transition is substantial

 

[JTG]

I think a cost controlled physical #3/4 D who can skate and is good in transition is substantial

I think he's a 4, not a 3. I love Despres as a defenseman, but I don't see him as a guy who can play top pair type mins and carry a pairing. The more mins, the more mistakes, and that has to not be true.

I'd rather us chase after a legitimate #3 who could be a #2 in a pinch. We should have tried to re-sign Paul Martin, really.

 

[MrBurghundy]

If Murray pans out he'll be way more valuable than Despres.

We're talking 2, maybe even 3 Lovejoys of value.

I like this grading system. We should always grade on the Lovejoy scale.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Very interesting stuff; sounds like you played at a pretty high level. Care to talk about it?

One regret I have in life is not starting hockey at a younger age. It's a sport I wish I'd have focused my attention on -- but baseball and golf got my attention at an age I needed to be skating. I started way too late to "catch up." It's a shame, because after playing for several years, it's my favorite sport by far...

I sure hope you are right, in that it's lost "swagger" that's part of the issue with DP...I'm just not sure where he "lost it." You'd have thought he'd have been flying pretty high after getting the amount of ice time he did with the Pens last season, and largely acquitting himself decently in some pressure games. Somewhere, over the summer, something happened...because he sure doesn't seem to be playing with assertiveness.

It's nothing on here anyone would find fascinating.

I became a sponsored tourney player in my 20s and got to play with some big names in my circle such as Kip Guenther and Jamie Adams, who knew Warren Young, Erin Whitten, Bryan Trottier, Alain Lemieux, etc. So I got to meet a lot of people through the game. It always kept me humble because you knew there were people out there like Tony Szabo who would piss all over you, and there were fourth liners in the NHL who would eat him up.

I pretty much stopped playing competitively 6-7 years ago, but the only thing I still really want to do is play in the Pond Hockey Championships. It's on my bucket list and I had an invitation a little while back but my daughter was due that month so obviously I turned it down.

As far as skating goes, it's never too late to learn and there are leagues in most cities for beginners once you get the basics down. I've known a ton of people who learned as adults and within a year it was like night and day.

 

[Shady Machine]

So who thinks pouliot should've gone instead of harrington?

Ugh no. We don't need to write Pouliot off just because he isn't ready this year.

 

[IcedCapp]

I think he's a 4, not a 3. I love Despres as a defenseman, but I don't see him as a guy who can play top pair type mins and carry a pairing. The more mins, the more mistakes, and that has to not be true.

I'd rather us chase after a legitimate #3 who could be a #2 in a pinch. We should have tried to re-sign Paul Martin, really.

Heretic

Edit: I disagree with JTG's assessment of Despres, but do agree that I wouldn't trade Pouliot for him. Different reasons, but suffice to say that's not a move I would make. (Knowing what I know. In a vacuum, yes, Despres is a far-better player. Would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on this d, and the gap between 3 and 4 would be the size of ____________)

 

[The Greatest 101]

They specifically write an article to convince fans that Malkin-Hornqvist works.I find it kind of funny.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/m_news.htm?id=781219#top

 

[Ogrezilla]

They specifically write an article to convince fans that Malkin-Hornqvist works.I find it kind of funny.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/m_news.htm?id=781219#top

its funny that they need to do that because it does work.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't know where the idea that Malkin and Hornqvist don't work comes from. No, they haven't produced 10 goals during the pre-season games they've played, but they've controlled the play and had numerous scoring chances nearly every time their line's been on the ice. Part of that is how well Plotnikov's been playing with them, but still, Geno and Hornqvist have been just fine.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't know where the idea that Malkin and Hornqvist don't work comes from. No, they haven't produced 10 goals during the pre-season games they've played, but they've controlled the play and had numerous scoring chances nearly every time their line's been on the ice. Part of that is how well Plotnikov's been playing with them, but still, Geno and Hornqvist have been just fine.

I personally don't think they are a great fit, yet. In the zone, they are fine together. Hornqvist drives the net and opens up space.

Off the rush, they look confused by each other. Neal (and Comeau and Jokinen) knew how to read Geno and would get open in soft spots for the constant give and go's. Hornqvist just goes.

I was initially concerned that Plots would just go too and would play too similarly to Hornqvist. He seems to be adjusting and if that continues, the line will be very good.

 

[The Greatest 101]

I personally don't think they are a great fit, yet. In the zone, they are fine together. Hornqvist drives the net and opens up space.

Off the rush, they look confused by each other. Neal (and Comeau and Jokinen) knew how to read Geno and would get open in soft spots for the constant give and go's. Hornqvist just goes.

I was initially concerned that Plots would just go too and would play too similarly to Hornqvist. He seems to be adjusting and if that continues, the line will be very good.

I agree.Hornqvist just isn't a natural sniper,but he has to play that role on that line now.

Still want to see Plots-Malkin-Sprong.

 

[DegenX]

I agree.Hornqvist just isn't a natural sniper,but he has to play that role on that line now.

Still want to see Plots-Malkin-Sprong.

Me, too. And Plots-Malkin-BB. Neither is probably going to happen though.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Heretic

Edit: I disagree with JTG's assessment of Despres, but do agree that I wouldn't trade Pouliot for him. Different reasons, but suffice to say that's not a move I would make. (Knowing what I know. In a vacuum, yes, Despres is a far-better player. Would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on this d, and the gap between 3 and 4 would be the size of ____________)

While I believe that Despres would clearly be the 3rd best Dman on this team, there would be a similar-sized gap between 2 & 3 as between 3 & 4.

 

[IcedCapp]

While I believe that Despres would clearly be the 3rd best Dman on this team, there would be a similar-sized gap between 2 & 3 as between 3 & 4.

That's a fairly opinion-driven comment and since I've already alluded to believing Despres is equal to or better than Maatta, I disagree.

I Have, however, after reading some comments this preseason, decided to have fun with people this year. I'm going to enjoy watching people squirm away from their Maatta opinions.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

"I believe Despres would be a distant third defenseman on this team. I have formed this opinion entirely on my own, after watching him play huge top pairing minutes and getting huge responsibility on a Western Conference juggernaut, not looking the least bit out of place, and hearing everyone involved with that organization heap praises upon him since his arrival."

 

[IcedCapp]

Two years ago, it was "Dumoulin is far better than Despres"

Last year it was "man, Pouliot is so much better than Despres"

This year, Despres will be on the top pairing for one of the best teams in the league. Pouliot will be in the AHL. Dumoulin will be God knows where.

I like Olli Maatta. I want him to do well. Frankly, as a fan, I NEED him to do well. But this board, in general, has massively overrated where he is right now. And, as was the case with Dumo and Poo, part of the overrating was done to minimize Despres.

I've watched both play. I see the upside and downside for both. If you feel Maatta is light years better, you're welcome to your opinion. I know what mine is, and, in general, my opinions are far better than yours.

Yes, I'm a preening narcissist, but I'm also right far more often than I'm wrong.

 

[Farnham4top6]

Two years ago, it was "Dumoulin is far better than Despres"

Last year it was "man, Pouliot is so much better than Despres"

This year, Despres will be on the top pairing for one of the best teams in the league. Pouliot will be in the AHL. Dumoulin will be God knows where.

I like Olli Maatta. I want him to do well. Frankly, as a fan, I NEED him to do well. But this board, in general, has massively overrated where he is right now. And, as was the case with Dumo and Poo, part of the overrating was done to minimize Despres.

I've watched both play. I see the upside and downside for both. If you feel Maatta is light years better, you're welcome to your opinion. I know what mine is, and, in general, my opinions are far better than yours.

Yes, I'm a preening narcissist, but I'm also right far more often than I'm wrong.

I don't understand why everyone thinks Määttä is so good and I really wonder how they watch games when they think he is better then Depress.

 

[TheSniper26]

I don't understand why everyone thinks Määttä is so good and I really wonder how they watch games when they think he is better then Depress.

Well, he is good. Especially for his age. The problem is that people take "good" and run with it to the point that he's now definitely a top pair dman who will eat 25+ minutes a night and everything will be hunky-dory.

Maatta has a ton of upside for sure but anyone that doesn't see the holes in his game is in for a rude awakening I think. His foot-speed needs work and he still gets walked one-on-one way too often. To say nothing of the health related concerns. I've been saying for a while that people need to come back down to earth a bit with this guy.

 

[Richard]

Well, he is good. Especially for his age. The problem is that people take "good" and run with it to the point that he's now definitely a top pair dman who will eat 25+ minutes a night and everything will be hunky-dory.

Maatta has a ton of upside for sure but anyone that doesn't see the holes in his game is in for a rude awakening I think. His foot-speed needs work and he still gets walked one-on-one way too often. To say nothing of the health related concerns. I've been saying for a while that people need to come back down to earth a bit with this guy.

Dude puts himself in way exposed positions as well. He needs to correct that most of all or he is going to get plastered. This defense needs to play all young guys and then make a major move once we decide who can play.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well, he is good. Especially for his age. The problem is that people take "good" and run with it to the point that he's now definitely a top pair dman who will eat 25+ minutes a night and everything will be hunky-dory.

Maatta has a ton of upside for sure but anyone that doesn't see the holes in his game is in for a rude awakening I think. His foot-speed needs work and he still gets walked one-on-one way too often. To say nothing of the health related concerns. I've been saying for a while that people need to come back down to earth a bit with this guy.

right, this is it exactly. He's good. He may wind up being very good. But somewhere around the 9th game of his 9-game tryout he became a top-20 elite all-world superstar. It's like, if you have ANY concerns about Maatta, you've got 3 boobs and are from Mars or something.

My stance on Maatta is going to be consistent: give me one full year without a health concern, without "hitting a wall", and without the roller coaster between "elite" and "woah, is he dead?" that we got in his rookie year. If he can do that, I will buy a ticket aboard the Maatta train. But right now, it's as much hype and hope as it is reality.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Two years ago, it was "Dumoulin is far better than Despres"

Last year it was "man, Pouliot is so much better than Despres"

This year, Despres will be on the top pairing for one of the best teams in the league. Pouliot will be in the AHL. Dumoulin will be God knows where.

I like Olli Maatta. I want him to do well. Frankly, as a fan, I NEED him to do well. But this board, in general, has massively overrated where he is right now. And, as was the case with Dumo and Poo, part of the overrating was done to minimize Despres.

I've watched both play. I see the upside and downside for both. If you feel Maatta is light years better, you're welcome to your opinion. I know what mine is, and, in general, my opinions are far better than yours.

Yes, I'm a preening narcissist, but I'm also right far more often than I'm wrong.

I don't believe I said anything about Pouliot or Dumoulin being far better, or even just better than Despres so don't lump me in with others.

Despres was one of my favorite Pens when he was here. I may even have posted at one point that he was in my top 5. However, just because I like a player doesn't mean that I need to overstate his abilities. I watched more of Despres in juniors/AHL than I have any other Pens prospect on the last decade and thought that he had the best chance out of any of our D-prospects to be an impact player.

So what happened? I watched Olli Maatta play. Before the 2013 preseason, I had watched him play maybe 5 minutes on a crappy OHL stream and thought the Pens would trade him to get Iginla. While many posters in previous years thought guys like Morrow could make the NHL even though they clearly werent ready defensively, after the preseason I figured Maatta could hold his own on the third pairing. However, the more I watched him, I was able to see his unbelievable hockey sense, plays that showed a fundamental understanding of how the sport is played that the vast majority of players never approach.

Now, Maatta isn't a perfect player by any means, but when you can read the play 2 or 3 seconds ahead, it more than makes up for a relatively smaller difference in speed.


Again, I don't think Maatta is better than Despres because I have something against Simon, I just have seen Maatta consistently play at a higher level.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that many people who will only blame a Dman for a goal against when they get walked or turn it over to the other team aren't as high on Maatta. Some posters also have certain player archetypes they look for and overvalue a player based on this.

 

[JTG]

right, this is it exactly. He's good. He may wind up being very good. But somewhere around the 9th game of his 9-game tryout he became a top-20 elite all-world superstar. It's like, if you have ANY concerns about Maatta, you've got 3 boobs and are from Mars or something.

My stance on Maatta is going to be consistent: give me one full year without a health concern, without "hitting a wall", and without the roller coaster between "elite" and "woah, is he dead?" that we got in his rookie year. If he can do that, I will buy a ticket aboard the Maatta train. But right now, it's as much hype and hope as it is reality.

And a lot of the same has to be said for Despres. Granted, we did him no favors here. I think he will prove to be a capable top 4 defenseman this season, but I think how good he really is (was) is blown out of proportion. He had a tendency to do some real stupid **** that got him put in some hairy situations with the coaching staff. Same thing happened in Anaheim a few times, from what I understand, as he was healthy scratched a couple times when he first got there.

If Despres had Maatta's brain for the game, coupled with his physical attributes, we'd have a franchise top pairing defenseman. Despres' hockey IQ is going to keep him from being a top pairing defenseman. It has been a knock on him since he was even drafted - hence why he almost fell out of the 1st round.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And a lot of the same has to be said for Despres. Granted, we did him no favors here. I think he will prove to be a capable top 4 defenseman this season, but I think how good he really is (was) is blown out of proportion. He had a tendency to do some real stupid **** that got him put in some hairy situations with the coaching staff. Same thing happened in Anaheim a few times, from what I understand, as he was healthy scratched a couple times when he first got there.

If Despres had Maatta's brain for the game, coupled with his physical attributes, we'd have a franchise top pairing defenseman. Despres' hockey IQ is going to keep him from being a top pairing defenseman. It has been a knock on him since he was even drafted - hence why he almost fell out of the 1st round.

And if Maatta had Despres' physical attributes, coupled with his brain for the game, we'd have a franchise top pairing defenseman. I'd argue that for every time Despres makes a dumb play, Maatta gets out skated or outmuscled.

I love Maatta. He had a very solid rookie year before falling off a bit of a cliff at the end. He then had a great month before missing the rest of his 2nd season. At this point, Maatta has never had a full season where he looked as good as Despres did last season. Does that mean he won't? No, of course not. There are too many questions with each of them to really say how either will play out. As it stands though, I'd say Despres has proven that he can successfully play well for an entire NHL season and playoff. Maatta hasn't done that yet.