Post-Game Talk: Lightning 5, Penguins 4: The Niemi Adventures

[Speaking Moistly]

It's probably because you have them on ignore and the ignore list was one of the only things that improved with the new site

It is and it is.

I still figured the defense would be ignored for the forwards and Niemi.

 

[cheesedanish87]

This game was a lot better then i thought it would be, i was expecting a 6-1 type of game.

Games like this are lost because of the schedule, back to back nights against your biggest rivalry and arguably the best team in the conference is brutal.

They have another one of these back to back next week when they play a fresh tampa team again, pens have an awful schedule this year.

The biggest positive i took away from the game was the pens scored 4 goals and Sid and Geno didn't get a point.

Sid and Geno only had one point last night as well, that's good to see that they can produce without those guys scoring.

 

[chethejet]

Reaves changed the dynamic with the Preds game. That is why he is here. To not allow team to take unchecked liberties with the stars. Keeps teams a little more honest and Sid and Geno feel good about that. More hockey less crap.

 

[Andy99]

Then put Phil's ass on it. I know there was concern about him doing nothing with someone like McKegg but he's doing nothing with Malkin. McKegg and Kessel have 2ES points each and one of those points was them coming together for Hunwick's goal.

I'm in favor of that, been arguing to split him and Malkin up as well. He did better on that line last night than with Geno but we'll see going forward if he can take charge of that line and if Sully keeps him there. He needs to shoot more

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's the way I look at the 4th line. The 4th line hasn't been good this year on the overall, they've had some chances, but not nearly enough to be effective offensively and I think they only have 1 goal (on a Reaves deflection). However, the issue comes from Sullivan making bad lineup decisions with the 4th line. What do you expect a line of Kuhnhackl-Rowney-Reaves to accomplish? They're doing just as bad offensively as they're supposed to. There's no excuse for Kuhnhackl and Reaves to have their roster spots locked in, and Rowney should join that category when they get a 3C. That issue falls on Sullivan.

You don't trust Kuhnhackl-Rowney-Reaves to play more than 5 minutes a game? Don't make it your 4th line, problem solved. Make your 4th line Wilson-Rowney-Archibald or push for a call up for someone like Blueger or Sprong (Sprong would push someone else to the 4th line). If you keep trotting out that line, they're going to fail.

 

[MrBrightside]

Reaves changed the dynamic with the Preds game. That is why he is here. To not allow team to take unchecked liberties with the stars. Keeps teams a little more honest and Sid and Geno feel good about that. More hockey less crap.

Right, and which game this season had the most crap and the most cheap shots taken at Sid and Geno? Right. The game Reaves played the most. The idea that he deters anything is such an unsupported justification for neanderthal hockey that just keeps getting repeated time and time again without any support.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I love a good strawman argument in the morning.

 

[MrBrightside]

Here's the way I look at the 4th line. The 4th line hasn't been good this year on the overall, they've had some chances, but not nearly enough to be effective offensively and I think they only have 1 goal (on a Reaves deflection). However, the issue comes from Sullivan making bad lineup decisions with the 4th line. What do you expect a line of Kuhnhackl-Rowney-Reaves to accomplish? They're doing just as bad offensively as they're supposed to. There's no excuse for Kuhnhackl and Reaves to have their roster spots locked in, and Rowney should join that category when they get a 3C. That issue falls on Sullivan.

You don't trust Kuhnhackl-Rowney-Reaves to play more than 5 minutes a game? Don't make it your 4th line, problem solved. Make your 4th line Wilson-Rowney-Archibald or push for a call up for someone like Blueger or Sprong (Sprong would push someone else to the 4th line). If you keep trotting out that line, they're going to fail.

This is exactly right. They had pluggers and muckers like Adams and Glass on the 4th line for years and lost in the playoffs, so they put real hockey players on the 4th line and win 2 Cups...and the conclusion people seem to have drawn is to play pluggers and muckers because someone might cheapshot someone. This is just bizarre. Win 2 Cups with a "just play" mantra? Nah. Let's get away from that nonsense.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Have you guys heard the one about how you shouldn't pay your top two centers a total of 18.2 million combined?

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is exactly right. They had pluggers and muckers like Adams and Glass on the 4th line for years and lost in the playoffs, so they put real hockey players on the 4th line and win 2 Cups...and the conclusion people seem to have drawn is to play pluggers and muckers because someone might cheapshot someone. This is just bizarre. Win 2 Cups with a "just play" mantra? Nah. Let's get away from that nonsense.

Except that's not exactly why they lost. They lost because they had shoddy goaltending and no offensive support for Crosby and Malkin on their own lines in the post-season, combined with injuries.

Inconvenient to the argument at hand, I know.

 

[MrBrightside]

Except that's not exactly why they lost. They lost because they had shoddy goaltending and no offensive support for Crosby and Malkin on their own lines in the post-season, combined with injuries.

Inconvenient to the argument at hand, I know.

They lost for a lot of reasons, but if you don't think that having 4 lines of good hockey players rather than 2 or 3 lines of good hockey players isn't an advantage, I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They lost for a lot of reasons, but if you don't think that having 4 lines of good hockey players rather than 2 or 3 lines of good hockey players isn't an advantage, I really don't know what to tell you.

Except that's not at all what I said.

I mean, I was kidding when I said I liked a good strawman argument, but it's probably my fault for not using enough sarcasm emojis.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I blame Sully for Reaves usage or lack there of last night. Looking at Tampa, they play a speed game. Sully has to smart enough to give Reaves the night off and put Archie into play.

Sully is a great coach, but even great coaches make mistakes

 

[Peat]

A lot of penalties = not much time for the 4th line. Right now, the 4th line's job is a) provide PKers b) provide physicality c) Not shit the bed when on ice at ES. That sounds sensible to me if they're gonna keep calling 10 penalties a game.

Unfortunately objectives A and C went a little awry last night from the sounds of it. And B has little use against Tampa. I'm happy for them to keep playing Reaves regardless so he gets used to things, but the early lesson does seem to be he should be dressing for some games and not others. I'd like to see Archibald get a game, particularly against the other speed merchants in the league.

In any case, its not the major factor, as everyone's pointed out.

This is an okay start given the schedule. The bottom 6 haven't been killing us and neither has the lack of offence. Right now our problem is too many cheap goals conceded.

 

[MrBrightside]

Except that's not at all what I said.

I mean, I was kidding when I said I liked a good strawman argument, but it's probably my fault for not using enough sarcasm emojis.

Do you even know what you're arguing at all?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I love a good strawman argument in the morning.

Fail. You're supposed to say you love the smell of a good strawman argument in the morning. It's internet napalm and I'm a modern day literary genius blending the old with the internet.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Do you even know what you're arguing at all?

Yes. Don't be salty because I called you out for putting words in my mouth. Go read what I wrote, think about it and then we can have a conversation.

Or not. I really don't care.

 

[MrBrightside]

Yes. Don't be salty because I called you out for putting words in my mouth. Go read what I wrote, think about it and then we can have a conversation.

Or not. I really don't care.

Well, while it's tempting to re-read the drive-by snark and give it deep contemplation, I'm good, but thanks. If you really think playing Reaves on the second half of a B2B against a skill team and then having him take 3 shifts the 2nd and 3rd periods combined is a good thing because it caused Tampa Bay to cower in fear that he could jump off the bench and pummel them if they hit someone, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[HandshakeLine]

A lot of penalties = not much time for the 4th line. Right now, the 4th line's job is a) provide PKers b) provide physicality c) Not **** the bed when on ice at ES. That sounds sensible to me if they're gonna keep calling 10 penalties a game.

Unfortunately objectives A and C went a little awry last night from the sounds of it. And B has little use against Tampa. I'm happy for them to keep playing Reaves regardless so he gets used to things, but the early lesson does seem to be he should be dressing for some games and not others. I'd like to see Archibald get a game, particularly against the other speed merchants in the league.

In any case, its not the major factor, as everyone's pointed out.

This is an okay start given the schedule. The bottom 6 haven't been killing us and neither has the lack of offence. Right now our problem is too many cheap goals conceded.

Agreed here with you (and Kev). The schedule is doing us no favors, so might as well shake up that fourth line on a back to back. Sit Reaves for a game or two to help him get re-focused on his role, bring in Archie or Wilson.

I think it was Jiggy that also suggested throwing Guenz in on the 3C for a look-see, and I'd also support that too for a little bit.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Well, while it's tempting to re-read the drive-by snark and give it deep contemplation, I'm good, but thanks. If you really think playing Reaves on the second half of a B2B against a skill team and then having him take 3 shifts the 2nd and 3rd periods combined is a good thing because it caused Tampa Bay to cower in fear that he could jump off the bench and pummel them if they hit someone, we'll agree to disagree.

I'd settle for having to defend something I actually wrote. Seriously, where did I say that?

 

[MrBrightside]

I'd settle for you learning how to read. Seriously, where did I say that?

What's the other purpose of playing a guy who doesn't score, doesn't kill penalties, gets run over at ES from a possession standpoint, and who has demonstrated zero effective forechecking skills as a Pen? The postgame interview? I mean, there are numerous posts here lauding his awesome deterrent effect. If that's not what his value is, what is it?

 

[HandshakeLine]

What's the other purpose of playing a guy who doesn't score, doesn't kill penalties, gets run over at ES from a possession standpoint, and who has demonstrated zero effective forechecking skills as a Pen? The postgame interview? I mean, there are numerous posts here lauding his awesome deterrent effect. If that's not what his value is, what is it?

Oh, okay, so I'm responsible for defending some nebulous point I didn't make? Come on dude. If you're gonna be mad at me, at least be mad at something I actually said instead of forcing me to defend some strawman argument? Can you do me that solid?

Let me break down what I was trying to point out earlier:
My whole point has always been there's a different way to construct a 4th line that's physical and not a liability. If Reaves isn't working out here, then, by all means, bench him, move him whatever- not all gambles are going to work. But saying that a 4th line like we now have is the reason we didn't win Cups is incorrect (there were as you noted and then forgot about, MANY reasons we didn't win Cups for a few years) and ignores the fact that there are lots of different ways to run your bottom 6 with their own advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

To me it wasn't Bones' production that was maddening- he just seemed disinterested, lots of plays going off his stick, lots of lost D zone coverages, etc. But you can't deny he brought his play up considerably in the playoffs

I thought he was mostly a ghost in the playoffs last season, then he got hurt and the team didn't miss a beat IMHO.

Of course, they had the luxury of moving Cullen up, so in the effort of being fair, I can't overlook that.

I thought Bones was great during the first run and mediocre last season. I think he can and will be ably replaced by the deadline.

Naturally, the guy I've been impressed with and want JR to land, William Karlsson, has zero points.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, acting like our 4th line was some untouchable godly thing last year is some pretty revisionist history too. The best part of that 4th line was Cullen. Without a 4C as good as Cullen, you're going to have to change up how you run that line anyway, regardless of what wingers you put where.

 

[MrBrightside]

Oh, okay, so I'm responsible for defending some nebulous point I didn't make? Come on dude. If you're gonna be mad at me, at least be mad at something I actually said instead of forcing me to defend some strawman argument? Can you do me that solid?

Let me break down what I was trying to point out earlier:
My whole point has always been there's a different way to construct a 4th line that's physical and not a liability. If Reaves isn't working out here, then, by all means, bench him, move him whatever- not all gambles are going to work. But saying that a 4th line like we now have is the reason we didn't win Cups is incorrect (there were as you noted and then forgot about, MANY reasons we didn't win Cups for a few years) and ignores the fact that there are lots of different ways to run your bottom 6 with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Much as you claim I'm putting words in your mouth, I've never said that having garbage 4th lines was the only reason they didn't win in the playoffs prior to 2016. Yes, there are many different ways to run a 4th line that could be effective, but they all involve using good hockey players. There's no empirical evidence that Reaves is one. So I really don't care whether they are physical or not physical if they can play, and there's little evidence that he can.