Post-Game Talk: Lightning 5, Penguins 4: The Niemi Adventures

[HandshakeLine]

Much as you claim I'm putting words in your mouth, I've never said that having garbage 4th lines was the only reason they didn't win in the playoffs prior to 2016. Yes, there are many different ways to run a 4th line that could be effective, but they all involve using good hockey players. There's no empirical evidence that Reaves is one. So I really don't care whether they are physical or not physical if they can play, and there's little evidence that he can.

This is exactly right. They had pluggers and muckers like Adams and Glass on the 4th line for years and lost in the playoffs, so they put real hockey players on the 4th line and win 2 Cups...and the conclusion people seem to have drawn is to play pluggers and muckers because someone might cheapshot someone. This is just bizarre. Win 2 Cups with a "just play" mantra? Nah. Let's get away from that nonsense.

Ohh... okay, then.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Reaves has as many goals as Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Phil Kessel and several others not named Guentzel, Maatta or Sheary. He also has one more goal and the same amount of points as the darling of this board himself, Carl Hagelin. With more than 10 minutes less of ice time per game, no less.

But yeah, let's continue to harp on Ryan Reaves as the main reason why we will not win this season.

Newsflash: this is not the same team that won back-to-back Cups. If we are going to 3-peat, it'll have to happen with a different look. Not as much balance, more top-heavy scoring, far more grit and toughness, more production from the blueline, way more solo goaltending than a timeshare, etc.

Can it be done? Most of you say no because all you see is what has already happened in the past, not what may happen in the future. We won 2 Cups by not caring how Chicago did it, Boston did it or LA did it in recent years. Just like those teams found their own way and won, not caring about the others.

Everybody here is so hell-bent on not losing our identity that they cannot see the big picture anymore.

We are still the team to beat. Back-to-back games are going to be very tough on us this season, but it will not define us. When challenged, we will be up for the task. And yes, Ryan Reaves is going to be a part of the equation this season, whether everybody hates it or not.

This board is sad, really. People here act like we are the Cleveland Browns of hockey, instead of the best in the business.

 

[MrBrightside]

Also, acting like our 4th line was some untouchable godly thing last year is some pretty revisionist history too. The best part of that 4th line was Cullen. Without a 4C as good as Cullen, you're going to have to change up how you run that line anyway, regardless of what wingers you put where.

And the fact that you appear to think that the best way to make up for losing a great 4C is to surround a lesser 4C with worse players is quite the leap of logic.

 

[MrBrightside]

Reaves has as many goals as Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Phil Kessel and several others not named Guentzel, Maatta or Sheary. He also has one more goal and the same amount of points as the darling of this board himself, Carl Hagelin. With more than 10 minutes less of ice time per game, no less.

But yeah, let's continue to harp on Ryan Reaves as the main reason why we will not win this season.

Newsflash: this is not the same team that won back-to-back Cups. If we are going to 3-peat, it'll have to happen with a different look. Not as much balance, more top-heavy scoring, far more grit and toughness, more production from the blueline, way more solo goaltending than a timeshare, etc.

Can it be done? Most of you say no because all you see is what has already happened in the past, not what may happened in the future. We won 2 Cups by not caring how Chicago did it, Boston did it or LA did it in recent years. Just like those teams found their own way and won, not caring about the others.

Everybody here is so hell-bent on not losing our identity that they cannot see the big picture anymore.

We are still the team to beat. Back-to-back games are going to be very tough on us this season, but it will not define us. When challenged, we will be up for the task. And yes, Ryan Reaves is going to be a part of the equation this season, whether everybody hates it or not.

This board is sad, really. People here act like we are the Cleveland Browns of hockey, instead of the best in the business.

Good call. This board never harps on any one player.

Love,
Chris Kunitz

 

[Gurglesons]

Have you guys heard the one about how you shouldn't pay your top two centers a total of 18.2 million combined?

I mean I think you can argue one of the main reasons we were embarrassed from 2010 - 15 was because of this.

Rising cap and an explosion of unexpected youth saved our ass.

 

[HandshakeLine]

And the fact that you appear to think that the best way to make up for losing a great 4C is to surround a lesser 4C with worse players is quite the leap of logic.

It's like you're setting out to actually prove my throw away snark is correct.

So, thanks I guess?

 

[Gurglesons]

Do people really forget that 4 months ago we won a Stanley cup with a defense of...

Dumo-Hainsey (yes thats right Dumo being the anchor of your top pairing)
Cole-Schultz
Slow Maata - Ruh

So somewhere in the last 4 months after winning back to back championships, replacing Ron f'ing Hainsey with an elite defenseman, Maata improving by a leaps, and replacing Ruh with Hunwick has made the defense worse or bad?

I mean seriously.

I don't think the defense is worse. I just think that is a hell of a lot of money for who our D is. Like I said I don't believe anyone on our defense is a # 2. Schultz, Dumo and Maatta all either need specific zone starts, get caught beaten, or don't produce enough.

Like I love Dumo, but how do you not at least have one goal in a season you are strapped to Kris Letang's hip. When Kris Letang puts up 67 puts. That worries me.

Also, you are missing Daley. I really don't think what we did is sustainable last year without solid center depth either. If you had a Bonino like 3C and Cullen I could see your point.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I don't think the defense is worse. I just think that is a hell of a lot of money for who our D is. Like I said I don't believe anyone on our defense is a # 2. Schultz, Dumo and Maatta all either need specific zone starts, get caught beaten, or don't produce enough.

Like I love Dumo, but how do you not at least have one goal in a season you are strapped to Kris Letang's hip. When Kris Letang puts up 67 puts. That worries me.

Also, you are missing Daley. I really don't think what we did is sustainable last year without solid center depth either. If you had a Bonino like 3C and Cullen I could see your point.

I don't think our D is overpaid because it's just what guys get paid these days. A decent, reliable player is about $4 mil. A legitimately good player that you think can make a notable difference might break $6 mil anymore.

As far as the centers yeah I agree. The most important thing getting glossed over while people moan about Reaves is that a Bones/Cullen combo makes everyone look a hell of a lot better (and completely scrapping it, a hell of a lot worse potentially). Cullen bolstering the forwards down the middle on the back end of the depth chart, which was an atypical luxury considering how much he brought, cannot be understated.

 

[canadianguy77]

The boys really have to get the penalties under control. They're just killing the flow of the games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The only player on the Penguins defense you could really argue is overpaid is Schultz, and that's because paying a guy $5.5 million a year after 1 good season is questionable. I think Schultz has been solid this year though, so I think it's fine in the long run. Dumoulin is paid fairly if you look at comparables for him, and even if you think he's overpaid, it's by like $400k a year. Same with Maatta, but based on his play so far this year, he might become underpaid if he continues this offensive outburst.

Speaking of Maatta, I find it really funny how he already has 2 goals and 5 points in 5 games this year, while he had only 1 goal and 7 points in 55 games last year. He'll top his point totals from last year in 10 games this year.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Maatta's bounce back is the story of the early season for me. I hope he keeps it going.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't think the defense is worse. I just think that is a hell of a lot of money for who our D is. Like I said I don't believe anyone on our defense is a # 2. Schultz, Dumo and Maatta all either need specific zone starts, get caught beaten, or don't produce enough.

Like I love Dumo, but how do you not at least have one goal in a season you are strapped to Kris Letang's hip. When Kris Letang puts up 67 puts. That worries me.

Also, you are missing Daley. I really don't think what we did is sustainable last year without solid center depth either. If you had a Bonino like 3C and Cullen I could see your point.

1. When your riding someone with Letang i think its much more important that there just a good fit rather than a bonafide #2. letang can make his pairing go by itself. And Dumo seems to be a solid 2 for him. I mean we literally just won a cup with Dumo as our defacto #1.

2. Dumo's lack of goal scoring is weird but as long as he producing point i dont care how they come. As far as being on Letangs hip, i think that actually might decrease goal scoring from his D partner. Alton of the value Letang creates in in transition and thats definitely not how Dumo is gonna score.

3. The defense and center situations are not really related. For one i agree that center depth is concerning but on paper the drop off is less than the gains from Hainsey to Letang. And secondly the have the cap space to get a center if they found the right fit. The last thing holding up acquiring a C is our defenses cap hit.

 

[Gurglesons]

The only player on the Penguins defense you could really argue is overpaid is Schultz, and that's because paying a guy $5.5 million a year after 1 good season is questionable. I think Schultz has been solid this year though, so I think it's fine in the long run. Dumoulin is paid fairly if you look at comparables for him, and even if you think he's overpaid, it's by like $400k a year. Same with Maatta, but based on his play so far this year, he might become underpaid if he continues this offensive outburst.

Speaking of Maatta, I find it really funny how he already has 2 goals and 5 points in 5 games this year, while he had only 1 goal and 7 points in 55 games last year. He'll top his point totals from last year in 10 games this year.

I don't think anyone is overpaid individually. I just think spending 20 million on a top four of Dumo, Schultz, Letang and Maatta is like what Winnipeg did with their d core.

But they won two cups. So I won't have this argument anymore .

 

[Shady Machine]

Also, acting like our 4th line was some untouchable godly thing last year is some pretty revisionist history too. The best part of that 4th line was Cullen. Without a 4C as good as Cullen, you're going to have to change up how you run that line anyway, regardless of what wingers you put where.

I agree with that which is why I've been advocating for stronger center depth all summer. The counter I heard was "we have absurd wing depth so we can sacrifice at center". I personally don't think some of our 4th line wingers are anything special. Wilson, Kuhn, Archie, Rowney, Reaves, McKegg, whoever else are a variety of warm bodies / decent 4th line options that most playoff teams have. Some have potential, some play different roles, and some may be in the AHL or Europe in 2 years.

 

[End of Line]

Sky is falling after 5 games again

Despite the loss thats was one hell of a game to watch.

 

[edog37]

1. When your riding someone with Letang i think its much more important that there just a good fit rather than a bonafide #2. letang can make his pairing go by itself. And Dumo seems to be a solid 2 for him. I mean we literally just won a cup with Dumo as our defacto #1.

2. Dumo's lack of goal scoring is weird but as long as he producing point i dont care how they come. As far as being on Letangs hip, i think that actually might decrease goal scoring from his D partner. Alton of the value Letang creates in in transition and thats definitely not how Dumo is gonna score.

3. The defense and center situations are not really related. For one i agree that center depth is concerning but on paper the drop off is less than the gains from Hainsey to Letang. And secondly the have the cap space to get a center if they found the right fit. The last thing holding up acquiring a C is our defenses cap hit.

I don't think anyone will confuse Dumo with Paul Coffey. He's been a solid citizen out there for what he is asked to do on a nightly basis.

Our blueline cap hit is fine. When you employ top end talent both forward-wise & blueline wise, something has to give. Right now, it's our bottom 6. But it's only October, we can address it closer to the trade deadline...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

There's no empirical evidence that Reaves is one. So I really don't care whether they are physical or not physical if they can play, and there's little evidence that he can.

Gotta call out horseshit when I see it.

This is about agendas and people being angry about a trade and projecting their own biased opinions on Reaves.. and frankly being fools about it.

Reaves was part of one of the best fourth lines in the league over the last few seasons that was so good and reliable, that they were always out protecting leads. I've said this again and again, but you don't have to take my word on it:

The most dependable line for the Blues over the past three seasons has been the fourth line of Kyle Brodziak, Scottie Upshall and Ryan Reaves, a unit that Ken Hitchcock and Mike Yeo showed confidence in playing in key situations in the third period.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/who-...cle_6e41382d-330c-57a5-9679-040c525d0561.html

Ryan Reaves Leads Renovovation of Blues Fourth Line:

It’s not that the fourth line is playing the same way as before, only harder and with more energy. This is a new look to the fourth line, even if the bodies are the same as last year. They have suddenly become puck possessors supreme, getting the puck into the opponent’s zone and keeping it there.

Blues Fourth Line Getting Rewarded with More Ice Time

If you've been watching Blues games on TV lately and feel like every time you look, the fourth line of Scottie Upshall, Kyle Brodziak and Ryan Reaves are on the ice…

…it's because they are!

In the last five games, the Blues' fourth line has been used more often, seeing an average ice-time increase of almost three minutes per game more than the previous five-game stretch.

The increased responsibility is, at least in part, due to their effective play.

"Some of the matchups we've been giving them against top lines and D-zone face-off starts, we're not able to do those things if they're not on top of their game," said Blues Head Coach Mike Yeo. "They've been delivering.

https://www.nhl.com/blues/news/blues-fourth-line-getting-rewarded-with-more-ice-time/c-287940086

Once again, people don't know shit about what Reaves can do. His line was shutting down other teams top lines on many nights, and keeping teams hemmed in.

So saying there is no evidence he can play hockey is, once again, horseshit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm totally not upset. Loved the game tonight back and forth action.

Just pointing out these were issues that everyone could have anticipated and it is frustrating our front office would rather give lip service then address the issue.

I think you are still completely ignoring the possibility that they simply didn't like the options available and believe that they can do better later. That's not lip service and it's not a lack of addressing the issue. It's waiting to address the issue. If they didn't think the available options properly addressed the issues at workable costs, then waiting could be the right option. Or it could blow up in their face. I personally don't know what was available at what cost. In theory, I'm happy with their plan over the obvious options that we know were available. But I could obviously be wrong. We'll need to wait and see.

I certainly understand your side in all of this. There were almost certainly options available that would have given us a better team on the ice right now. JR needs to manage to get options that are better than that hypothetical team would have been either short or long term for his current plan to make sense. I just have faith that he will get that done.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think anyone is overpaid individually. I just think spending 20 million on a top four of Dumo, Schultz, Letang and Maatta is like what Winnipeg did with their d core.

But they won two cups. So I won't have this argument anymore .

I could see a legitimate argument for Schultz being overpaid. I have no issues paying the Penguins defense what they're making when they fit the identity of the team and are above average overall. The Penguins don't need to touch their top-4 for at least 3 years at this point, and probably don't need to touch their top-3 for 5 years (because I think Maatta firmly establishes himself as the 2nd best Penguins defenseman this year). I'm fine with paying $20 million for that kind of talent and stability.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't think anyone will confuse Dumo with Paul Coffey. He's been a solid citizen out there for what he is asked to do on a nightly basis.

Our blueline cap hit is fine. When you employ top end talent both forward-wise & blueline wise, something has to give. Right now, it's our bottom 6. But it's only October, we can address it closer to the trade deadline...

yep

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Schultz isn't overpaid. You could call that contract a risk but he's not overpaid unless he can't come close to last season again. The problem is he's partially wasted with so much PP f***ery.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I could see a legitimate argument for Schultz being overpaid. I have no issues paying the Penguins defense what they're making when they fit the identity of the team and are above average overall. The Penguins don't need to touch their top-4 for at least 3 years at this point, and probably don't need to touch their top-3 for 5 years (because I think Maatta firmly establishes himself as the 2nd best Penguins defenseman this year). I'm fine with paying $20 million for that kind of talent and stability.

Schultz is going to have a harder time than he should living up to that salary if we refuse to give him a big PP role. I actually missed the game last night, what was the powerplay setup?

 

[PensandCaps]

Schultz isn't overpaid. Especially if he plays the way he keep playing. He looks even better than last year.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Schultz isn't overpaid. Especially if he plays the way he keep playing. He looks even better than last year.

He has been very good so far, I agree. I just hate that we're not putting him in the best position for himself and for the team.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Schultz is going to have a harder time than he should living up to that salary if we refuse to give him a big PP role. I actually missed the game last night, what was the powerplay setup?

PP1 was Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hornqvist and Schultz. Letang may have seen time there but PP1 was ass. Again. The expensive forwards were the main culprits.