Post-Game Talk: Lightning 5, Penguins 4: The Niemi Adventures

[Ogrezilla]

PP1 was Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hornqvist and Schultz. Letang may have seen time there but PP1 was ass. Again. The expensive forwards were the main culprits.

Not shocked. I have no idea what they should do with the PP. Personally, I say split it. We have so many good options that I think we can finally run two units. I just wish we had two Hornqvists

Glad Schultz at least got some of the time there at least.

 

[ColePens]

I'm not going to fight about Reaves all season, but Jiggy I want to call your post out here. What makes the Blues tick is not what makes the Pens tick. The Pens are a team based on skill, depth, and speed. So what worked for the Blues won't work here.

I'm not saying Reaves is the problem, but it's definitely a problem playing Reaves, Kuhn, and Rowney on the same night. I understand why Sully did it. The PK was really good. Reaves had a coming out party the other night. That was a slam dunk decision to go back to it. I get it. But that's not what makes the Pens tick. That L4 cannot be that way all season. Reaves should play when we need him to play based on the opponent, not every single night. Kuhn/Rowney should NOT be playing once we get a 3C and can move McKegg to 4C. Kuhn/Reaves should NOT be playing over Wilson. Not at all. That's crazy.

So yes - some people want to put all the blame on Reaces. That's unfair. But L4 cannot be Reaves with Kuhn and Rowney. We said that from day 1. It can't be.

 

[ColePens]

Agree with the majority about Schultz, too. He looks better than he did last year. He looks like a legit top guy from an offensive standpoint. I love how he's playing. I don't care for our team defense right now, but I love how both Maatta and Schultz are playing. Maatta in comparison to last year. Schultz just in general. I love his game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So yes - some people want to put all the blame on Reaces. That's unfair. But L4 cannot be Reaves with Kuhn and Rowney. We said that from day 1. It can't be.

This I agree with. But I think Reaves will be the best option for that RW barring additions. I really like what he's bringing, I just don't like the overall line.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This is about agendas and people being angry about a trade and projecting their own biased opinions on Reaves.. and frankly being fools about it..

Jiggy, agreed with your entire post. The bolded above, though, is so crystal clear that I wish I could like that individual part multiple times.

It was obvious by the fact the same people who are constantly ripping on Reaves today were nowhere to be seen after the Nashville game. I can think of at least three people in this thread who are ragging on him who didn't post a single time in the PGT thread versus Nashville.

If Reaves has a solid night, crickets. If he struggles, they'll remind everyone multiple times how much he sucks. If that's not evidence of the bolded above, I don't know what is.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Not shocked. I have no idea what they should do with the PP. Personally, I say split it. We have so many good options that I think we can finally run two units. I just wish we had two Hornqvists

Glad Schultz at least got some of the time there at least.

I'm all for killing the concept of PP1 at this point. They'll eventually go on a hot streak but right now it needs to die and it always goes disastrous again. Split them, send PP2 out first if they suck, start pulling the big guns from it when they're idiots. Don't care, just stop trotting out the same shit when they suck. Letang is the shining beacon of problems but Crosby, Malkin and Kessel sure as f*** can't be proud of themselves.

Ironically, Schultz is now getting time on the worse PP unit while Maatta has more PP points than Schultz or Letang.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This I agree with. But I think Reaves will be the best option for that RW barring additions. I really like what he's bringing, I just don't like the overall line.

Right on. More over, I don't think any of us who saw the Reaves trade as an attempt to reconfigure the 4h line ever said it should run with Kuhn and Rowney.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not going to fight about Reaves all season, but Jiggy I want to call your post out here. What makes the Blues tick is not what makes the Pens tick. The Pens are a team based on skill, depth, and speed. So what worked for the Blues won't work here.

I'm not saying Reaves is the problem, but it's definitely a problem playing Reaves, Kuhn, and Rowney on the same night. I understand why Sully did it. The PK was really good. Reaves had a coming out party the other night. That was a slam dunk decision to go back to it. I get it. But that's not what makes the Pens tick. That L4 cannot be that way all season. Reaves should play when we need him to play based on the opponent, not every single night. Kuhn/Rowney should NOT be playing once we get a 3C and can move McKegg to 4C. Kuhn/Reaves should NOT be playing over Wilson. Not at all. That's crazy.

So yes - some people want to put all the blame on Reaces. That's unfair. But L4 cannot be Reaves with Kuhn and Rowney. We said that from day 1. It can't be.

Of course what worked for the Blues will work here. The Pens don't have Cullen anymore and he was what made that line so effective. Not some type of magical systematic play like people want to foolishly point to.

I already said that of Reaves, Rowney and Kuhn, only one can be in the lineup at any one time. So I've already qualified that weeks ago.

I've also said, again and again, Reaves has proven he can be part of a very effective line. I have now back that up with multiple sources and will be happy to provide more for anyone else claiming Reaves can't play or some other nonsense.

It's on Sullivan to stop playing three of his slowest guys on the fourth line together, and to construct a proper fourth line.

Right now, he's throwing his leftovers with Reaves, and that's not how you build an effective fourth line.

That's not Reaves fault, but somehow the guy who is a proven, legit fourth liner that has been part of one of the best fourth lines in the league the last few years, is suddenly the problem.

Get real people.

 

[PensandCaps]

I just don't like Reaves Dzone coverage. He's a defensive liability so far imo. But Kuhn and Rowney haven't been any better. The 4th line as a whole has sucked. I just don't see the harm in giving Archibald and Wilson games and sitting Reaves and Kuhn. Especially if the coach himself clearly thinks the 4th line is a liability, he didn't play Reaves at all last game, why even dress him?

 

[TheSniper26]

I'm all for killing the concept of PP1 at this point. They'll eventually go on a hot streak but right now it needs to die and it always goes disastrous again. Split them, send PP2 out first if they suck, start pulling the big guns from it when they're idiots. Don't care, just stop trotting out the same **** when they suck. Letang is the shining beacon of problems but Crosby, Malkin and Kessel sure as **** can't be proud of themselves.

Ironically, Schultz is now getting time on the worse PP unit while Maatta has more PP points than Schultz or Letang.

The PP1 problems are completely psychological. That "one extra pass" mentality is just killing it. Sid, Geno and Phil all have the same problem of wanting to be the guy dishing the pretty pass. Now couple that with Letang wanting to be the guy that makes no decision ever and you've got a real mess.

I agree that it's probably worth trying a Sid/Geno split at this point. They both over-pass and they both like the same spot. I'm also not opposed to just taking Phil off the top unit altogether. At least for a little while. A guy known for his shot that refuses to use it and is incapable of one timers is kind of an issue on that side.

 

[NMK11]

I think you are still completely ignoring the possibility that they simply didn't like the options available and believe that they can do better later. That's not lip service and it's not a lack of addressing the issue. It's waiting to address the issue. If they didn't think the available options properly addressed the issues at workable costs, then waiting could be the right option. Or it could blow up in their face. I personally don't know what was available at what cost. In theory, I'm happy with their plan over the obvious options that we know were available. But I could obviously be wrong. We'll need to wait and see.

I certainly understand your side in all of this. There were almost certainly options available that would have given us a better team on the ice right now. JR needs to manage to get options that are better than that hypothetical team would have been either short or long term for his current plan to make sense. I just have faith that he will get that done.

Thanks for being a voice of reason. Im on the other side where I wish we had made a move over the summer, but I can acknowledge that I dont know what was available and waiting could have absolutely been the right choice, which at this point I hope it is. As much as people get irritated with the doom and gloomers, its equally as irritating to me when the response is that waiting is the absolute right choice and we know there will be better options at better prices later.

As for Schultz, if hes overpaid its not by much. If they would just let him run PP1 then he would definitely be worth that to this team. The only other contract I see as maybe an overpayment would be Hagelin. But again, its not by much and when paying a middle 6 winger $4m who is defensively responsible and is a part of the team identity, well, youre in a pretty good spot.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Jiggy, agreed with your entire post. The bolded above, though, is so crystal clear that I wish I could like that individual part multiple times.

It was obvious by the fact the same people who are constantly ripping on Reaves today were nowhere to be seen after the Nashville game. I can think of at least three people in this thread who are ragging on him who didn't post a single time in the PGT thread versus Nashville.

If Reaves has a solid night, crickets. If he struggles, they'll remind everyone multiple times how much he sucks. If that's not evidence of the bolded above, I don't know what is.

You could smell this coming back in June, so it's not some big surprise.

I can't stand Kuhn, but I'm not going to whine about him after every bad game he has (who has time for that anyway, would be mostly every game so...).

Kuhn blows and will play himself out of the lineup, so I'm not too worried about it. That will factor into making the fourth line more effective, and Reaves will have more suitable linemates.

Sullivan is a smart coach and will eventually figure out you don't play AHLers who lack foot speed with Reaves.

 

[MrBrightside]

I've also said, again and again, Reaves has proven he can be part of a very effective line. I have now back that up with multiple sources and will be happy to provide more for anyone else claiming Reaves can't play or some other nonsense.

It's on Sullivan to stop playing three of his slowest guys on the fourth line together, and to construct a proper fourth line.

Right now, he's throwing his leftovers with Reaves, and that's not how you build an effective fourth line.

That's not Reaves fault, but somehow the guy who is a proven, legit fourth liner that has been part of one of the best fourth lines in the league the last few years, is suddenly the problem.

Get real people.

What is this based on? St. Louis' 4th line in general and Reaves in particular had horrific possession numbers. I mean, I get that advanced stats only matter when they support one's opinion, but Reaves has consistently been a low-40% CF% player, and it's not like he's being inserted for tough defensive zone possessions. The idea that it's the other guys that are a drag on Reaves and not the other way around is extraordinary.

People keep pointing to the loss of Cullen as a basis that Reaves should play, and that's so backward. The fact they don't have Cullen makes it all the more imperative that the other guys on the 4th line be able to skate and be able to play, not less.

 

[MrBrightside]

I just don't like Reaves Dzone coverage. He's a defensive liability so far imo. But Kuhn and Rowney haven't been any better. The 4th line as a whole has sucked. I just don't see the harm in giving Archibald and Wilson games and sitting Reaves and Kuhn. Especially if the coach himself clearly thinks the 4th line is a liability, he didn't play Reaves at all last game, why even dress him?

That's the thing I don't get. You want to play Reaves against the Flyers or Blue Jackets? Fine. I don't agree with that theory but I get it. But to dress him against teams built on speed and talent like Tampa Bay serves no purpose. Sullivan clearly didn't trust him on the ice against them, so I don't get why he dressed him.

 

[High Flying Birds]

Lots of defensive breakdowns occurred from what I saw last night. Players looked sloppy, perhaps the result of a tough back to back and it cost them in front of the not so inspiring Niemi. Bolts were playing like they had something to prove too. After missing the playoffs, there's no bigger scalp early in the season than beating the champs.

Ideally you don't want Sid getting 23 minutes of ice time either. JR really needs to get on the horn and find himself a legit 3rd C to carry the load. Rowney and McKenna are fine as 4th line guys/13th forwards but asking them to do more over the course of 82 games is a bit much.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What is this based on? St. Louis' 4th line in general and Reaves in particular had horrific possession numbers. I mean, I get that advanced stats only matter when they support one's opinion, but Reaves has consistently been a low-40% CF% player, and it's not like he's being inserted for tough defensive zone possessions. The idea that it's the other guys that are a drag on Reaves and not the other way around is extraordinary.

People keep pointing to the loss of Cullen as a basis that Reaves should play, and that's so backward. The fact they don't have Cullen makes it all the more imperative that the other guys on the 4th line be able to skate and be able to play, not less.

Reaves and his line were being giving tough defensive assignments. Looking at a stat sheet doesn't tell you much. Let's see what their coach had to say... the guy who knew what was going on with his team better than any of us.

The physical part's fine, but man, they are on the same page and have been on the same page for a month," Hitchcock said. "It almost makes them a third line the way they're playing. I can put them out against anybody. There's one power play Edmonton got. They're playing 15 shifts on average, 16 shifts 5-on-5, that's third-line time. It's because I trust them. They're doing everything and more. They're scoring, they're creating zone time, they're winning battles, they're making plays. They're really helping our team right now.

http://www.ksdk.com/sports/blues-4th-line-continues-to-shine/375408154

And ya, you need guys that can skate, like Upshall, to build a good fourth line.

Sullivan is throwing all his spare parts with Reaves and expecting it to be a good line. I'm 100% sure you put in a guy like Archibald for Kuhn, that line looks way better. Then McKegg for Rowney later on... and suddenly you have the makings of a fast and physical fourth line.

It's not rocket surgery to know playing three guys that lack explosive speed together on a fourth line is trouble.

 

[MrBrightside]

Reaves and his line were being giving tough defensive assignments. Looking at a stat sheet doesn't tell you much. Let's see what their coach had to say... the guy who knew what was going on with his team better than any of us.



And ya, you need guys that can skate, like Upshall, to build a good fourth line.

Sullivan is throwing all his spare parts with Reaves and expecting it to be a good line. I'm 100% sure you put in a guy like Archibald for Kuhn, that line looks way better. Then McKegg for Rowney later on... and suddenly you have the makings of a fast and physical fourth line.

It's not rocket surgery to know playing three guys that lack explosive speed together on a fourth line is trouble.

Yeah, sorry, Ken Hitchcock isn't exactly the guy whose wisdom I really want the Pens to follow.

I agree that it's the entire line that is the problem, but the idea that Reaves isn't a part of the problem is what doesn't follow. A 4th line centered by McKegg with Archibald and Wilson would be my preference once we get a 3C, but my fear is that Reaves will play over better options even when they upgrade at 4C.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I will never understand the argument of bad possession numbers for fourth lines built around grinders. When Reaves is on the ice, you don't want him to have the puck. You want him to dump it in, go hit somebody, glare at a few opponents and come off. He is not on the ice to create offense, he is on the ice to create mayhem.

But yeah I do agree that the real problem is Rowney and Kuhnhackl as his linemates. I like Kuhnhackl more than Jiggy does, but I do not think he should play every night when we have a Scott Wilson as an option. And McKegg is an ideal fourth center, much less ideal as a 3C.

JR knows this. He is working on it. He will get us a center. You have to trust the man.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Is their anyway a mod or somebody can just make a Ryan Reaves thread to discuss him?

I'm sure i'm not the only poster that doesn't want to read this Reaves hate after every single game in the post game thread.

If he has his own thread we can at least avoid this talk about him if we choose to.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah, sorry, Ken Hitchcock isn't exactly the guy whose wisdom I really want the Pens to follow.

I agree that it's the entire line that is the problem, but the idea that Reaves isn't a part of the problem is what doesn't follow. A 4th line centered by McKegg with Archibald and Wilson would be my preference once we get a 3C, but my fear is that Reaves will play over better options even when they upgrade at 4C.

Well, he's won a Stanley Cup and been coaching for what, 21 years?

I assume he's doing something right and must know a thing or two about hockey to still be coaching this long.

Reaves is going to play regularly because he can play just as well on a fourth line as a guy like Wilson, but he adds the enforcer element Wilson can't.

It doesn't matter if you or Joe Blow Poster are up in arms about it, because you aren't the ones having your heads dribbled off the ice like the Pens stars.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not shocked. I have no idea what they should do with the PP. Personally, I say split it. We have so many good options that I think we can finally run two units. I just wish we had two Hornqvists

Glad Schultz at least got some of the time there at least.

They kinda have been running 2 units, because I think the 2nd PP unit has like 4 PP goals on the year already. I think Rust, Sheary and Letang all have 2nd PP unit goals, and Guentzel scored right after a PP ended yesterday. I think that unit has the same amount of PP goals as the top unit has.

 

[Peat]

But it won't stop their heads getting dribbled off the ice. Yay! Full circle.

I support the creation of a Reaves thread. Let those bothered by Reaves and those bothered by people being bothered by Reaves fight it out away from everone else.

 

[Shady Machine]

Of course what worked for the Blues will work here. The Pens don't have Cullen anymore and he was what made that line so effective. Not some type of magical systematic play like people want to foolishly point to.

I already said that of Reaves, Rowney and Kuhn, only one can be in the lineup at any one time. So I've already qualified that weeks ago.

I've also said, again and again, Reaves has proven he can be part of a very effective line. I have now back that up with multiple sources and will be happy to provide more for anyone else claiming Reaves can't play or some other nonsense.

It's on Sullivan to stop playing three of his slowest guys on the fourth line together, and to construct a proper fourth line.

Right now, he's throwing his leftovers with Reaves, and that's not how you build an effective fourth line.

That's not Reaves fault, but somehow the guy who is a proven, legit fourth liner that has been part of one of the best fourth lines in the league the last few years, is suddenly the problem.

Get real people.

Who do you propose they play with Reaves then?

 

[Richard]

I'd have powerplay one as

Horny-Crosby-Malkin
Shultz-Maata

PP2

Kessel-Jake Guentzl-Sheary
Letang-Hunwick

 

[Clare2904]

How do you know he didn't put in a claim? Leafs had waiver priority over the Pens

The Leafs actually traded for him, not a waiver pick up.