Lets talk about William Nylander.

[Gary Nylund]

Hey! What happened to my Nylander thread? Oh well. I can post the question here:

I am not impressed with his stick checking and mild defensive play lately. He needs to be better and he has to sacrifice something to win a game (for the love of God!). So many times I watched him wave at pucks (without taking the body) last night. Trocheck: "Smell you later Willy", Barkov: "Ciao caio Mickey Mouse!" They just skate around Nylander with ease. This is with the freaking game on the line! This is with the Leafs holding a 1 goal lead!

Do you think he's too soft for Stanley Cup Playoff Hockey?

 

[saltming]

Hey! What happened to my Nylander thread? Oh well. I can post the question here:



I am not impressed with his stick checking and mild defensive play lately. He needs to be better and he has to sacrifice something to win a game (for the love of God!). So many times I watched him wave at pucks (without taking the body) last night. Trocheck: "Smell you later Willy", Barkov: "Ciao caio Mickey Mouse!" They just skate around Nylander with ease. This is with the freaking game on the line! This is with the Leafs holding a 1 goal lead!

Do you think he's too soft for Stanley Cup Playoff Hockey?

Willie is the 2nd best 5v5 player on the leafs

 

[Once]

Beat me to it.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Hey! What happened to my Nylander thread?

You got a bunch of responses all severely disagreeing with you, and as such the thread was closed.

Take a moment to ponder what Kessel has done in the playoffs, and then ask yourself if being soft is that much of a problem.

 

[Walshy7]

You got a bunch of responses all severely disagreeing with you, and as such the thread was closed.

Take a moment to ponder what Kessel has done in the playoffs, and then ask yourself if being soft is that much of a problem.

Nylander is also far from soft though. He goes and battles for the puck something kessel wouldn't even dream of doing. Nylander is also really string and good at using his body and strength to shield the puck. Ok he doesn't get involved with post whistle scrums neither do Matthews or Marner why isn't OP calling out their softness?,

there is a small section of this site and leaf community at large that for no reason at all hate nylander. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[ottomaddox]

Nylander is also far from soft though. He goes and battles for the puck something kessel wouldn't even dream of doing. Nylander is also really string and good at using his body and strength to shield the puck. Ok he doesn't get involved with post whistle scrums neither do Matthews or Marner why isn't OP calling out their softness?,

there is a small section of this site and leaf community at large that for no reason at all hate nylander. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I'd love to know who actually hates Nylander. They are surely mentally unstable. It is a hockey game after all. Maybe there are those on this board who cannot distinguish between "hate" and criticism. Those with emotional maturity tend to have a grasp of both.

 

[Walshy7]

I'd love to know who actually hates Nylander. They are surely mentally unstable. It is a hockey game after all. Maybe there are those on this board who cannot distinguish between "hate" and criticism. Those with emotional maturity tend to have a grasp of both.

ok. never said you hated him, please point out where I said that? there are a few who genuinely dislike the kid, is that a better term for you?. 666 really dislikes the kid never said a single good thing about him, that's one example off the top of my head

Nice little dig at the end there to try and gain some sort of moral high ground.

 

[MattySnipes]

I was reading a Bruins thread (42% of Marchand's last 100 games have been multi-point games) last night on the main boards and they were discussing Marchand's progress over his career.

I couldn't help but think of Nylander when I read one of the posts by @BBB24 where he mentions:

"The only coach that deserves any credit for Marchand success is Claude Julien, Marchand has said many many times how important Claude was for his development. You go back to Jrs and he had many issues, Claude showed patience and made him the player he is today by riding him for every wrong move he made."

Now I am not comparing the players at all - just the situations regarding coaching. Some posters and members of media feel Babcock may have it in for Nylander or that he has a short leash for him but it can also be attributed to something similar as what Julien did for Marchand. Nylander is the oldest out of our trio of forwards, and it seems Babcock and Nylander himself want him to be the best version of himself - which would include solid defensive play, and standing in the right spots which ultimately leads to offensive opportunities. Personally, not agreeing with everything that Babcock does, but he could definitely be teaching Willy a valuable lesson in development. I believe Nylander will be better for it in the long-run.

 

[81Leafs50]

These playoffs will go a long way to establishing a contract. Right now I would haggle him down to 5.5 million, but if he steps up his game and can show he can produce in the playoffs (help us go deep and 15-20 points) he'll get over 6 no doubt.

will he resign? he's an RFA what choice does he have?

 

[Menzinger]

it really shows how lazy scouts can attribute something to a young prospect that will stick to him. People still call him a diva (outside of leaf fans mostly) yet I would think of a diva as being selfish Nylander is happier when a linemate scores than himself, case in point Dermott's first goal nylander was happier than dermott.

Scouts also said something basically saying he might as well not go to the defensive zone, will he win a selke? no of course not but I am more than comfortable with him defensively right now and he is only 21!.

It was absolutely outrageous how some fairly prominent hockey journalists/public scouts gave interviews in the lead up to the ‘14 draft and mentioned Nylander’s supposed “character issues”. I doubt any of them had ever been in the same room as the kid let alone even talked to him, felt they could throw shade on a teenager on the cusp of starting his pro career. Was downright disgusting

 

[DarkKnight]

It was absolutely outrageous how some fairly prominent hockey journalists/public scouts gave interviews in the lead up to the ‘14 draft and mentioned Nylander’s supposed “character issues”. I doubt any of them had ever been in the same room as the kid let alone even talked to him, felt they could throw shade on a teenager on the cusp of starting his pro career. Was downright disgusting

That was the lazy narrative because his dad was bad in the room and this assumption he was a privileged kid.

 

[cookie]

Nylander is also far from soft though. He goes and battles for the puck something kessel wouldn't even dream of doing. Nylander is also really string and good at using his body and strength to shield the puck. Ok he doesn't get involved with post whistle scrums neither do Matthews or Marner why isn't OP calling out their softness?,

there is a small section of this site and leaf community at large that for no reason at all hate nylander. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Dang straight. Nylander's not reckless like Hyman but he goes into the boards as the second forechecking forward and usually gets puck possession.

His abysmally bad PP production is what sets him apart from Marner, but otherwise, he's improved 5v5: has more takeaways, better than 50% on draws, and has displayed the capacity to center a line without Matthews, and score clutch goals. I'd wager that the drop from 26 PP points last year to 9 this year makes a significant difference.

If the Leafs were getting PPs closer to the league average, there's no doubt that both Nylander's and Marner's numbers would be that much higher.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I was reading a Bruins thread (42% of Marchand's last 100 games have been multi-point games) last night on the main boards and they were discussing Marchand's progress over his career.

I couldn't help but think of Nylander when I read one of the posts by @BBB24 where he mentions:



Now I am not comparing the players at all - just the situations regarding coaching. Some posters and members of media feel Babcock may have it in for Nylander or that he has a short leash for him but it can also be attributed to something similar as what Julien did for Marchand. Nylander is the oldest out of our trio of forwards, and it seems Babcock and Nylander himself want him to be the best version of himself - which would include solid defensive play, and standing in the right spots which ultimately leads to offensive opportunities. Personally, not agreeing with everything that Babcock does, but he could definitely be teaching Willy a valuable lesson in development. I believe Nylander will be better for it in the long-run.

i always find it interesting when people go (and this was on the radio too how Babcock was "mean" to Nylander." and i'm like. sometimes people need someone to be up their butt over every little mistake. and even though they don't like it - it can help them become a better player. being tough isn't a bad thing.

 

[ULF_55]

It was absolutely outrageous how some fairly prominent hockey journalists/public scouts gave interviews in the lead up to the ‘14 draft and mentioned Nylander’s supposed “character issues”. I doubt any of them had ever been in the same room as the kid let alone even talked to him, felt they could throw shade on a teenager on the cusp of starting his pro career. Was downright disgusting

There are bullies in the media, and they hide behind their computer screen / typewriter and throw garbage at teenagers.

These are supposed to be grown up mature individuals, but to me they come across as jealous bullies unwilling to go out on the ice and be a man.

But that's just me ...

 

[freewilly]

i always find it interesting when people go (and this was on the radio too how Babcock was "mean" to Nylander." and i'm like. sometimes people need someone to be up their butt over every little mistake. and even though they don't like it - it can help them become a better player. being tough isn't a bad thing.

Willy is my favorite of the kids (not saying he's the best- just my favorite)..so seeing babs have a short leash with him hurts...but I want to believe that you're right and he does it because he has figured out that Willy responds best to that type of coaching.

 

[DarkKnight]

There are bullies in the media, and they hide behind their computer screen / typewriter and throw garbage at teenagers.

These are supposed to be grown up mature individuals, but to me they come across as jealous bullies unwilling to go out on the ice and be a man.

But that's just me ...

The media are worse than the fans will ever be, about everything.

 

[Egghead1999]

Aaannnnd...you base this comment on what evidence?

C'mon, it is writing on the wall, the coach don't like you, and he is not going anywhere

 

[IamruKusleaf]

Talk amongst yourselves!

Sorry ruKus says .... oh he can’t anymore , someone didn’t like what he called and therefore I can’t sees it at all !

Goooo French Fry LEAFS Go

 

[meefer]

I had a history prof way back when, first year uni, first essay handed in. Done the same way I'd done all my essays in high school - the night before due. There may be some here who don't know this but there was a time when personal computers didn't exist, not everyone had a typewriter and you had to write things out by hand, double spaced. The paper came back with more red writing than the blue ink I'd used to write the darned thing. After class the prof pulls me aside and says something to the effect 'kid, you got talent, but you're one lazy son of a gun, shape up'. To do what he did took time, patience and caring. This prof continued to ride my ass throughout the year. Whereas in high school I was always getting top marks in writing because of 'content' the competition in uni was more demanding and this prof demanded I start using more than talent to carry me through. His were the most valuable lessons I received while getting my degrees and I should apply them more often .

 

[PromisedLand]

Looks like what Willy loses, $$$, is gonna go to Marner

I was hoping Willy at 7M
Marner at 7M
Matthews at 9.5M to 10.5M

Looks like Willy mat now be around 6M and Marner around 8M

 

[PromisedLand]

I think the best comparable for Nylander's next contract is what David Pastrnak got from the Bruins which is $6,666,666 million AAV for six years.

Pasta dropped the gloves to fight Inthink Girardi after he laid abquestionable hit on Bergeron lol

 

[613Leafer]

Nylander is also far from soft though. He goes and battles for the puck something kessel wouldn't even dream of doing. Nylander is also really string and good at using his body and strength to shield the puck. Ok he doesn't get involved with post whistle scrums neither do Matthews or Marner why isn't OP calling out their softness?,

there is a small section of this site and leaf community at large that for no reason at all hate nylander. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Absolutely agree. When I watch this guy play, I see a very skilled player that goes hard after loose pucks, and a guy who very regularly intercepts passes / picks guys pockets in the neutral zone. His defensive stats are good too, so the eye-test lines up with the stats.

People that hate on him for poor defensive play I really have to question how much they watch him. I'm assuming it's some combination of going off early scouting reports from before he was even drafted, and assuming that's still relevant 3-4 years later, or just not liking Euro players as much and giving him a hard time but not holding Marner to the same standard for example.

Out of the three young guys, Nylander is I think solidly in 3rd at this point. Marner has really taken a big step forward this year that Nylander hasn't (plus Marner is younger). But that doesn't mean Nylander is lazy, bad defensively, etc.

 

[MyBudJT]

I find it easier to respond point-by-point than to posts as a whole, especially when posts contain so many different points. I apologize for making it hard, but my responses would be way harder to follow otherwise.



How, exactly?



That may be the case, and if we're talking about trading the two for each other, I probably agree completely. We're talking about contracts here, though, and in contract talks, stats speak loudest, not eye tests or goals vs assists or improvements. That said, statistically, they are probably a good comparison, though I'd point out that Ehlers 64 point season last year came after a 72-game rookie season at 19 where he got 38 points, while Nylander got his 61-point season after 22 games at 19 where he scored 13 points, and I think Nylander's camp will be smart enough to make the point that comparing Ehlers and Nylander's 2017-18 stats to argue he should be making the same money is not reasonable considering Ehlers signed his contract before the season started. I still think Nylander makes significantly more than Ehlers, therefore.



1) Drouin signed his contract with Montreal before the season, so, just like Ehlers, using this year's numbers to compare Nylander's contract is faulty.

2) Contracts aren't going to take into account the surrounding players. If someone like Drouin isn't going to put up the same numbers as Nylander in a worse situation, then that comparison has no merit in a positive or negative way towards what money Nylander should or shouldn't get. I mean, I could argue Nylander suffers in Toronto compared to Ehlers in Winnipeg because he doesn't have the veteran presence of a Wheeler or Schiefele that can shield him from things that Matthews and Hyman can't, but that really doesn't matter when you get right down to it in contract negotiations. If you can't preform in your environment, you don't get the money.



How do you compare contracts if you don't compare players?



How do you rate "similar calliber prospects"?



How on earth is Johnson, a 27-year-old 6-year vet, ever somparable to a 21-year-old, 2 or 3 year vet like Nylander?



Schwartz is still a bit absurd at 25 with 6 full seasons under his belt, but he did sign his current contract after his 4th season at 23, so I'll take a glance here anyway. Schwartz has put up more than the 61 points Nylander scored at 20 once, as a 22 year old in 2014-15, when he put up 63. He has put up a PPG this year, but again, since he signed his contract 2 years prior, using this year's numbers is a bit faulty. Schwartz suffered an injury during his contract year, limiting him to 33 games and 22 points, which probably played a role in his contract being 5.35M instead of in the 6M range. As well, since he signed in the 2016 off-season, that contract came in a 73M cap, meaning there needs to be inflation considered. I think, considering age, health, stats and inflation, 6.75M is still very reasonable to expect in this comparison



Same response to all of these as the one for Johnson. For Oshie, it's even worse, considering he's almost 32 years old. These guys are being paid for what they've done. Nylander will be paid both for what he's done as well as what he might do. There's no point talking about those contracts.

Now, if you want to talk about the 2nd contract these guys and compare their first 2-3 seasons to Nylander and use those numbers with cap inflation to make a point, I'm absolutely willing to listen to that.

ETA: A further point for Oshie and his age: a large reason for why that's a 5.75 cap hit is because Oshie took far less money over the last 5 years of that contract than he did for the first 3 years. He's making 8, 7.5 and 6.5 over the first 3 years, for an AAV of 7.33M, but then he'll make 4.5, 6, 4.5, 5 and 4.5 for an AAV of 4.9M over the last 5 years. That's another reason why comparing contracts of older players versus guys like Nylander is completely useless.



I've yet to see one, but I'm still more than willing to have you keep trying.



I disagree entirely.

Monahan had 38, 62 and 63 points in his ELC playing 75, 81 and 81 games, Nylander has 13, 61 and, so far, 55 points playing 22, 81 and 77 games. Pastrnak had 27, 26 and 70 in 46, 51 and 75 games, and while, yes, he was a year younger than Nylander, Nylander has shown much more consistancy at the NHL level in his 3 ELC years. How is that "little proof"?

I'm moving this convo to a Nylander Thread.

"How isn't Nylander better than Pastrnak?" You make a poll on the main boards, and Pastrnak wins by a landslide.

I don't understand your arguments on Ehlers... You're really nitpicking here... Their 2015/2016 seasons aren't too different. Both played a good portion of it in the NHL. Nylander had more time in the AHL to gain and maintain high confidence, whereas Ehlers went through the grind of the NHL the whole year. Both have its positives and negatives. If you look at the last two seasons, production has been similar but Ehlers has been the better goal scorer (which in itself carriers higher value). How can Nylander's camp demand more money?

On Drouin, you were using his season as a comparison, not me... . I just said that its a good contract comparison and then you talked about their career numbers.

I could have articulated that better, but I thought my point was obvious enough. Players get paid based on what they can provided to a team. You do compare players, but it doesn't have to be positional/purely statistical/point production. Even within the same position, players have different playing styles. For isntances, Pastrnak and Nylander play two different styles of games, as does Kucherov and Stamkos, as does Nylander and Hedman. Just because they play different positions doesn't mean you cannot compare them. If a Norris calliber, All-Star #1D recently signed at less than 8 million, why do you think Nylander will get 7? Similarlly, Rielly and Nylander are both similar calliber players by their last ELC year IMO... should they not be getting similar type contracts?

How do I rate calliber of prospects? Well, How does anyone rate hockey players? And no, its not just point production, there is a lot of subjectivity behind. Would you say Josh Bailey is better than Mitch Marner? Would you say that Clayton Keller is better than Jack Eichel? Hockey and point production isn't linear, there is subjectivity that goes behind ranking players.

I wasn't saying they're similar in age, but that doesn't mean you cannot use them for contract comparisons.... If you are just selecting for 21YO Forward Wingers, then you're limiting yourself to a very low sample size. There are many factors that go into giving out contracts, its not simply just saying "Well Pastrnak goes this much money, so Nylander should too". You've got factors like 1) How many RFA years are you eating up? 2) What is the trajectory of this player? 3) How many goals will he provid us? 4) How many points will he provide us? 5) Can he be a main driver in his line? 6) Is he responsible defensively? 7) Does he compete every night? 8) Is there any concerns that they won't try as hard after getting a large contract? (IE: Complacency) 9) Are we deep in that position? 10) Is he a good guy to have in the locker room / community? The factors don't end there.

You're totally twisting the stats regarding Monahan and Pastrnak.
1) You're not accounting for Goals.
2) Monahan didn't play with a Matthews, and doesn't play with Gaudreau nearly as much as Nylander spends with Matthews. Furthurmore, Nylander hasn't shown that he can produce at that level away from Matthews.
3) Monahan plays a more difficult position
4) Pastrnak has shown he's better than Nylander every year they've been in the league together

But okay, lets just look at point production, because that metric tells us the whole storey...

 

[Menzinger]

Issue with goal scoring and Nylander is he’s being used as Matthews’ playmaker - I’m not so sure the Leafs will be able to use that against him in negotiations.

 

[ottomaddox]

Nylander needs to smarten up. He got benched the other night.

TSN Overdrive did a whole feature on him yesterday.

Farraro: "Nylander has the shortest leash when it comes to the big 3"

O dawg, Poulin, and Hayes all ripped him a new one.


No one is saying he can't be good or can't improve, but he can't fall down in terms of his assignments and play without puck.

NOW SMARTEN UP !