Lets talk about William Nylander.

[mapleleaf979]

Issue with goal scoring and Nylander is he’s being used as Matthews’ playmaker - I’m not so sure the Leafs will be able to use that against him in negotiations.

Nylander's shot accuracy can come into question. He also completely will whiff on pucks and flub it. His shot isnt consistent. His release and speed on his shots are high end. The main issue the Leafs have with Nylander is his compete level. Marner having more goals than Nylander is based on one thing, Marner working harder to get those opportunites. Nylander either looks like a superstar or a bored player going thru the motions. This is obviously frustrating the coach. Its plain as day and puzzling that some Leaf fans dont see the massive swings in his compete level thru out the last 3 years. Without Matthews on his line, he is no where near as dangerous. Is it smart to spend 6-7m for a winger with these attributes and Matthews dominates that line? Nylander is the most frustrating player on the Leafs Tonight he could put up 3 points, create havic on the backcheck, zone entries. Or check out, not skate, have zero ambition with the puck passing it off asap, etc.

 

[Leafsdude7]

I'm moving this convo to a Nylander Thread.

"How isn't Nylander better than Pastrnak?" You make a poll on the main boards, and Pastrnak wins by a landslide.

Ever heard of argumentum ad populum? It's not really a good one to make...

I don't understand your arguments on Ehlers... You're really nitpicking here... Their 2015/2016 seasons aren't too different. Both played a good portion of it in the NHL. Nylander had more time in the AHL to gain and maintain high confidence, whereas Ehlers went through the grind of the NHL the whole year. Both have its positives and negatives. If you look at the last two seasons, production has been similar but Ehlers has been the better goal scorer (which in itself carriers higher value). How can Nylander's camp demand more money?

Between Ehlers signing last summer and Nylander having an extra year that displayed his ability to produce consistently as well as the fact that other comparables, like Pastrnak and Monahan suggesting higher values than Ehlers (eg: suggesting Ehlers signed a undervalued contract), I think they can demand more money quite easily.

On Drouin, you were using his season as a comparison, not me... . I just said that its a good contract comparison and then you talked about their career numbers.

I used Drouin's career numbers, not one season. And if their career numbers are so absurdly in Nylander's favour, how could you suggest it's a good contract comparison?

I could have articulated that better, but I thought my point was obvious enough. Players get paid based on what they can provided to a team. You do compare players, but it doesn't have to be positional/purely statistical/point production. Even within the same position, players have different playing styles. For isntances, Pastrnak and Nylander play two different styles of games, as does Kucherov and Stamkos, as does Nylander and Hedman. Just because they play different positions doesn't mean you cannot compare them. If a Norris calliber, All-Star #1D recently signed at less than 8 million, why do you think Nylander will get 7? Similarlly, Rielly and Nylander are both similar calliber players by their last ELC year IMO... should they not be getting similar type contracts?

Sure, in a fan or media POV. Not in a contract one, though. Mostly because such comparisons are subjective. Teams don't pay top players (typically) due to "playing styles". Players are paid for production (and, in cases of younger players like Nylander, future production), not for how they play. As such, comparing a defender to a forward, who play entirely different positions from a statistical POV, is useless in this discussion. Now, I'll agree, some players are paid for things outside of goals and points, but top-line players like Nylander, and therefore his comparables, are not. Since guys like Hedman (ie: defensemen) are not paid for just goals and points, they are not good comparables to players like Nylander who are.

How do I rate calliber of prospects? Well, How does anyone rate hockey players? And no, its not just point production, there is a lot of subjectivity behind. Would you say Josh Bailey is better than Mitch Marner? Would you say that Clayton Keller is better than Jack Eichel? Hockey and point production isn't linear, there is subjectivity that goes behind ranking players.

Sure, but once again, we're talking completely from a fan POV. In a contract talk, subjective viewpoints is a problem waiting to happen. Stats are hard numbers, even if they can be manipulated somewhat, so they will typically be used over "hey, that guy plays better than that guy".

I wasn't saying they're similar in age, but that doesn't mean you cannot use them for contract comparisons.... If you are just selecting for 21YO Forward Wingers, then you're limiting yourself to a very low sample size. There are many factors that go into giving out contracts, its not simply just saying "Well Pastrnak goes this much money, so Nylander should too". You've got factors like 1) How many RFA years are you eating up? 2) What is the trajectory of this player? 3) How many goals will he provid us? 4) How many points will he provide us? 5) Can he be a main driver in his line? 6) Is he responsible defensively? 7) Does he compete every night? 8) Is there any concerns that they won't try as hard after getting a large contract? (IE: Complacency) 9) Are we deep in that position? 10) Is he a good guy to have in the locker room / community? The factors don't end there.

I don't disagree with most of that, but you still can't compare 28-32 year olds with 21-22 year olds regarding contracts because there's completely different factors that can be used to increase and decrease AAV and completely different numbers to draw on. 28-32 year olds have 6-10 years of experience to draw on, while players like Nylander have 2 or 3. And I'm not suggesting we limit it to 21 year old forwards, or even a more general age-group. I allowed your use of Schwartz for example, even though he's 25, because I was able to easily use his last contract extension in comparison to Nylander as they were similar in age and experience, and I said if you wanted to look up contracts at similar points of Johnson, Oshie and the others' careers and make that point, I'd listen to it.

You're totally twisting the stats regarding Monahan and Pastrnak.
1) You're not accounting for Goals.
2) Monahan didn't play with a Matthews, and doesn't play with Gaudreau nearly as much as Nylander spends with Matthews. Furthurmore, Nylander hasn't shown that he can produce at that level away from Matthews.
3) Monahan plays a more difficult position
4) Pastrnak has shown he's better than Nylander every year they've been in the league together

I think Nylander playing with Matthews is actually a positive benefit to him. Players like Matthews aren't easy to play with. The fact that Nylander can play well with him gives him value that others might not have, if for no other reason than finding a replacement of his quality to play there is hard.

That said, once again, if Nylander is being groomed to play centre as has been suggested, point 3 is potentially not in play, and Nylander has shown he at least has the potential to play it well. I have pointed out the idea that maybe Nylander takes a 2 or 3 year contract while he transitions from wing to centre so he can cash in more as a centre down the line instead of a 7 or 8 year deal this summer, which could be something the Leafs would be interested in doing, too.

As for Pastrnak, just as with their statsline overall, they'd only played in the league for 1 year together when his contract was signed, and unlike Pastrnak, Nylander has both of their years together to draw on, so he should be given more, even if he's produced less overall. To put it more simply, I think Nylander should expect to get paid more (or at least the same) for 2 60-point seasons than Pastrnak got for a single 70-point season.

But okay, lets just look at point production, because that metric tells us the whole storey...

When talking about players like Kadri, Hyman, Marchand and other such players, you can make the argument it doesn't, but in the case of players like Nylander, Pastrnak, Monahan and Ehlers, I think it very nearly does.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

What is the reason for Nylanders relatively poor/underwhelming season?

I think everyone expected much bigger things than he has delivered.

 

[Nithoniniel]

What is the reason for Nylanders relatively poor/underwhelming season?

I think everyone expected much bigger things than he has delivered.

If his PP unit was not completely underwhelming, he'd be looking at a 70 point season right now. He's also made some changes to his game, specifically in the defensive zone, that has led to opposite results from what you want. And then you add that he is now playing on a line that is no longer getting highly offensive usage and instead works as our secondary matchup line, and you have another factor that is likely to impact his numbers.

 

[BayStreetBully]

What is the reason for Nylanders relatively poor/underwhelming season?

I think everyone expected much bigger things than he has delivered.

I actually don’t think he’s had a bad season at all. He’s still produced at around a 60 point pace so he hasn’t regressed offensively, and is learning centre duties this year. He can still put up bigger numbers in future years.

 

[Menzinger]

Nylander's shot accuracy can come into question. He also completely will whiff on pucks and flub it. His shot isnt consistent. His release and speed on his shots are high end. The main issue the Leafs have with Nylander is his compete level. Marner having more goals than Nylander is based on one thing, Marner working harder to get those opportunites. Nylander either looks like a superstar or a bored player going thru the motions. This is obviously frustrating the coach. Its plain as day and puzzling that some Leaf fans dont see the massive swings in his compete level thru out the last 3 years. Without Matthews on his line, he is no where near as dangerous. Is it smart to spend 6-7m for a winger with these attributes and Matthews dominates that line? Nylander is the most frustrating player on the Leafs Tonight he could put up 3 points, create havic on the backcheck, zone entries. Or check out, not skate, have zero ambition with the puck passing it off asap, etc.

I’m not sure I’d share your assessment that Nylander lacks “compete”, and while Matthews is obviously the best player on that line (as he would be on any line on the team), Nylander and he both elevate one another’s games (Matthews performs better alongside Nylander than when apart).

 

[Menzinger]

If his PP unit was not completely underwhelming, he'd be looking at a 70 point season right now. He's also made some changes to his game, specifically in the defensive zone, that has led to opposite results from what you want. And then you add that he is now playing on a line that is no longer getting highly offensive usage and instead works as our secondary matchup line, and you have another factor that is likely to impact his numbers.

Yep, there’s been a lot to like about his even strength scoring (believe he’s #2 on the team, just behind Matthews in that regard).

Once Bozak/JVR depart and the Leafs shakeup their PP units as a result I’m hoping he and Matthews manage to have a muh better chance at scoring on the Pp

 

[leafsfuture]

I’m not sure I’d share your assessment that Nylander lacks “compete”, and while Matthews is obviously the best player on that line (as he would be on any line on the team), Nylander and he both elevate one another’s games (Matthews performs better alongside Nylander than when apart).

I dont disagree.

But Nylander's "compete" level is lower than Matthews and Marner. Thats just a fact. Thats not to say its bad. Kadri's compete level isnt that high either.

I would say the difference though is that Kadri has more limitations in his game - he isnt as fast or strong as Willy is, so its easier for Naz to get beat to pucks or out-worked.

Willy is strong, and a very good skater. You see games once in a while where he is everywhere and reality is he can do that more often

 

[Muston Atthews]

Willy wins puck battles regularly along the boards. Questionable compete level my ass

 

[Muston Atthews]

People are going to continue to look stupid making dumb comments about Nylander and Marner when they go through rough patches

 

[Gary Nylund]

People are going to continue to look stupid making dumb comments about Nylander and Marner when they go through rough patches

Hit the nail right on the head with that one.

 

[Martin Skoula]

People are going to continue to look stupid making dumb comments about Nylander and Marner when they go through rough patches

No this time it's different, this is FOR SURE the rough patch that's going to last for the rest of his career.

And off the off chance it isn't, we'll just repeat this cycle again next time.

 

[NoName]

Anything up to around $7million is good in my books. The guy is a very talented winger who is 21 years old (I am not sold that he will ever make the jump to centre) and that is the kind of money those kinds of players go for. I just hope the Leafs don't pay him Leon Draisaitl money.

JVR likely walks (hurts that we signed Marleau for 3 years for JVR range money), but I cant see the Leafs not keeping Nylander.

 

[Havoc]

Can't always judge compete level by whose doing their best Hyman impression.

Mental stamina is harder to maintain than physical stamina. Mental stamina is always using your head to slow down the play, be shifty, play with your head up, when and how to stick check etc.

If you don't believe me, try to play hockey off an all nighter and no caffeine before the game. You'll notice you can do basic stuff with your energy but anything involving your head against skilled opponents is suddenly impossible.

Nylander's mental stamina is elite. Just look at him carry the puck up the ice. Beautiful.

He's a finesse player so there's going to be the odd time he tries something that turns into a disaster. Just look at Barzal last night. Only reason he got bailed out is because Brown has hands of stone this season. Yet nobody is going to consider him a liability.

Nylander isn't Marner and Marner isn't Nylander. There are things Nylander can do that Marner can't and vice versa. Both are huge assets to the team.

 

[Woll Smoth]

Anyone else feel like separating Nylander and Matthews is like splitting 10s in blackjack?

 

[Nithoniniel]

My personal opinion on the subject of compete is that reputation plays a huge part. Any time Nylander slacks off from the ideal effort, it's jumped at as part of his compete issues. Another person do that, and it goes unmentioned.

 

[Gallagbi]

My personal opinion on the subject of compete is that reputation plays a huge part. Any time Nylander slacks off from the ideal effort, it's jumped at as part of his compete issues. Another person do that, and it goes unmentioned.

Tough to argue against this

 

[Stephen]

Willy wins puck battles regularly along the boards. Questionable compete level my ass

Yeah Nylander has a great tendency to get into corners and outmuscle guys with his low center of gravity.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Nylander needs to bring this level of compete every game. He is all world, when he works. He has 2 goals, both of them boil down to him competing/skating hard to find gaps and or break away from defenders. He is back checking as well. This is why he gets flack, shows this level then his ambition disappears for 4-5 games.

 

[Menzinger]

My personal opinion on the subject of compete is that reputation plays a huge part. Any time Nylander slacks off from the ideal effort, it's jumped at as part of his compete issues. Another person do that, and it goes unmentioned.

Undeniably true.

All players take nights off once in a while but only a few get harped on because of it

 

[kesleaf]

Nylander needs to bring this level of compete every game. He is all world, when he works. He has 2 goals, both of them boil down to him competing/skating hard to find gaps and or break away from defenders. He is back checking as well. This is why he gets flack, shows this level then his ambition disappears for 4-5 games.

So are you saying this is another Kessel in Leafs uniform?

I remember Kessel was kind of like that when he played for the Leafs. Elite player with all the tools but he would usually just float around.

 

[Albi34]

So are you saying this is another Kessel in Leafs uniform?

I remember Kessel was kind of like that when he played for the Leafs. Elite player with all the tools but he would usually just float around.

We would be really lucky to have a Kessel level player in Nylander

 

[Havoc]

Nylander needs to bring this level of compete every game. He is all world, when he works. He has 2 goals, both of them boil down to him competing/skating hard to find gaps and or break away from defenders. He is back checking as well. This is why he gets flack, shows this level then his ambition disappears for 4-5 games.

Well a big difference this game is his team mates set him up. How often has this been occurring this season? Not often.

Every time Matthews finally finds some chemistry with Nylander in terms of passing to him, he got injured a game or two after. Hopefully tonight finally puts them on a roll.

Nylander's compete is fine. This is his game he usually brings.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I had discussion with the typical Leaf hater who said the Leafs lack "size and grit". For some reason those two words, size and grit seem to go hand in hand. Don't know why. Yea the Leafs lack size in many cases, but you don't finish eight overall this season without grit.
Part of Nylander's "softness" image is just the way he looks. Too blonde and not much facial hair. If his ancestors had not been from northern Europe and came for further south in Europe, his dark facial hair and more swarthy look, folks would think he plays much tougher.
Nylander doesn't play a much of dump and chase game as many other players. Just because he's too talented and can stick handle much better than most. So instead of stickhandling towards net, maybe Nylander should just dump the puck in corner and then try to retrieve the puck, yep that would toughen up his game.

 

[Martin Skoula]

We would be really lucky to have a Kessel level player in Nylander

Especially a Kessel that goes to the dirty areas and is strong on the cycle.