Please don’t lump one radical homer saying Draisaitl> Kane as all Oilers fans are the same collective.
That’s just as dumb as the original post.
Value of: Leon Draisaitl to your team
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Please don’t lump one radical homer saying Draisaitl> Kane as all Oilers fans are the same collective.
That’s just as dumb as the original post.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Scroll back and look. 0 5 on 5 minutes with McDavid, extrapolate his resulting 5 on 5 production over his icetime, add in PP production and other even strength (4 on 4, 3 on 3 production) + 3 shorthanded goals. 83 points.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
780il
edm
Kale Hulls
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- May 15, 2013
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I have no idea how to fix the Oilers anymore. I feel bad for players like RNH and McDavid who could have had great careers elsewhere, but were bound to this incompetent management team. I'm not trying to troll here, I grew up cheering for the Oilers and it pains me to see everything get so bad, but if I were them I would move all of the high end talent and try to build a team in the model of Vegas. 4 lines that can roll, hard, grinding hockey that is aggressive. I'm sick of seeing soft flimsy play from them.
At least it feels like management is going on the right direction, but only time will tell. They need another Ryan Smyth or Doug Weight. I think if they weren't in cap hell Pavelski would have been the perfect for for them.
At least it feels like management is going on the right direction, but only time will tell. They need another Ryan Smyth or Doug Weight. I think if they weren't in cap hell Pavelski would have been the perfect for for them.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Yep, assuming he played 0 5 on 5 minutes with McDavid (but still got to play with him in the other situations teams play their best offensive threats together like on the powerplay and in OT) and was instead with the other crew of carnies Edmonton passed off as wingers last season.
How is CO being dishonest ? Seems you are . You are picking what stat you use . In your math assuming Draisaitl never played a minute with McDavid where are his short handed points ? Where are his 3 on 3 points ? where are his 4 on 4 points ? You assume he not getting none ? So lets assume he gets none so you can stop trying to bash Draisaitl , but lets also take away points from every one that plays with a top centre .
Nah. Just the ones that are competely useless without that centre. That group includes.... well, just draisaitl.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
It doesn’t, and you look more absurd every time you post about it.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
I calculated the number and got only 80 points. His P/60 without 97 was 1.47, and if he maintained that rate over the 1378:57 that he played at 5-on-5, he would have scored 34 5-on-5 points if you round up.
That would make him 91st in 5-on-5 points, with fewer than Erik Gustafsson, Andreas Johnsson, Tyler Bertuzzi, Andrew Shaw, Travis Konecny, and some other fairly unspectacular names.
In this hypothetical scenario, he would still have scored more than half of his points with Connor on the ice. He'd have 46 non 5V5 points and 34 5V5 points, and 42 of those non 5V5 points came with Connor on the ice. If your calculations were correct and mine are mistaken, he still would have scored more than half his points with Connor, and he would still be behind Bertuzzi/Shaw/Konecny in 5-on-5 scoring.
So either way I don't think that is an exoneration of his performance, since I don't think anybody is questioning that he is an elite special teams producer with Connor out there. The question is whether or not he can drive his own line at 5-on-5 and perform like an elite player, both in terms of production and in terms of 3-zone play. I understand he hasn't been put in the best positions to do so, but simply hasn't proven that he can do that.
Haha, WTF?
Jones has by far more value than Leon.... then Panarin is better than Leon, then you throw in Werenski?
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Add the three shorthanded goals. That’s usually what’s being missed.
And I’m sorry, 83 point production pace with the likes of Milan Lucic and Tobias Rieder on your wings IS elite production. There’s no two shakes about it. There’s no argumentation. There’s no base for disagreement. You wanted an argument that Draisaitl could “drive a line?” Here it is. Fourth line or worse caliber wingers, and he’d have still hit 80 points.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
If you are criticizing for having fewer points without McDavid kn his line can you are least acknowledge that he spent a ton of time away from McDavid dragging around Lucic and an revolving door whose best names include Sam Gagner and Jesse Pulujarvi?
ManofSteel55
Registered User
500 minutes with Lucic, Reider, Gagner and Pulujarvi? It's a miracle that any goals were scored at all really.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Especially when you consider Marner’s pace away from Tavares over 500 minutes was about 16 points, and that’s with MUCH better secondary linemates...
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Are you just trying to start a fight, or is your hockey knowledge that terrible? It’s literally one or the other.
“I’d give Kris Russell straight up for Jeff Petry, take it or leave it.”
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
The 3 shorthanded goals aren’t being missed by my calculations. I think you might be adding them again once they’ve already been added.
Only 34 of those points would actually come from driving a line at 5-on-5 with those 4th liners, and that’s despite playing the 2nd most 5V5 minutes of any forward. Saying “fourth line or worse caliber wingers” and then bringing up 80 points is a bit disingenuous because more than half of those points don’t come with fourth line or worse caliber wingers; they come with by far the best player in the world.
It's not being disingenuous at all.
5on5 he is playing with 4th line players.
Do you expect them to not let their good players play together on the powerplay too? What other spin are you going to pull out of your ass to discredit draisaitl.
You must lose alot of sleep thinking of ways to discredit him.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
I have acknowledged on many counts that his situation without McDavid is one of the most difficult of any player in the NHL. This is what makes him such a hard player to evaluate - he spends 2/3 of his time in one of the most favorable situations in the NHL with Connor, and then 1/3 of his time in one of the least favorable situations. Because of this, I don't really tend to have a problem with people who throw his name into top-5 or top-10 discussions; even if I don't agree with that, it's not something I definitely consider to be objectively wrong or whatever because I'm not 100% certain where I would rank him myself. When I see something like a Seth Jones for Draisaitl proposal, I actually think that the value is in favor of Columbus, which is ironic because most Oilers fans call me a hater, and yet some of them think that is fair value.
What I haven't seen Oilers fans acknowledge, is that his performance with that revolving door of scrubs is still not good - even when adjusting for those scrubs. The fact of the matter is that over the course of the past 3 seasons, when the team is without McDavid in either situation, they do better without Draisaitl than they do with him. (And they do quite poorly in both situations) To me, this is much more of a problem than his scoring rates without Connor. Now, I know people will argue against this and say that this is because those scrubs play against tougher competition when they're with him. But there are true elite centers around the league who play with scrubs of comparable nature and all of them make their team better than the team is without them. Mark Stone in Ottawa played with guys like Cody Ceci and Zack Smith and always managed to make the team significantly better.
Until Draisaitl can make his team significantly better in the minutes he plays without McDavid, I can't call him a true line driver or elite center. And while I appreciate the analysis from ChaoticOrange which disproves the absurd claims that were being made by joe dirte, I don't think they prove in any way that he is a line driver.
I don't have an issue with who he plays with on the power play. I'm saying that his super elite non 5V5 production (which does come with Connor) is in no way evidence that he can drive a line. Driving a line at 5-on-5 and scoring in non 5-on-5 situations are two different things. What the poster ChaoticOrange showed was that the combination of his line driving at 5-on-5 without Connor and his scoring in non 5-on-5 situations would still drive him up to 80 points. But the majority of those 80 points wouldn't be due to his line driving with the scrubs; they would be due to his non 5-on-5 production.
Is there any reason that you have to try and make the discussion so hostile and personal? If you disagree with what I'm saying, then tell me why you disagree.
It was a joke. You gotta work on your sense of humour.
Kidding aside, I’ll do that trade. Tatar + Petry for Draisaitl + Russell. No take backs.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
I think you’re missing something somewhere because it’s definitely 83.
Regardless, you’re really reaching here. Everyone plays their best players together in odd man situations as well as 4 on 4 and 3 on 3, of course he’s playing with McDavid there. Any idiot would make the same decision. Your argument was always about driving a line at 5 on 5 and now you have irrefutable proof that Draisaitl would still put up pretty tidy point totals playing with absolute zeroes. How many Sharks could say the same? You seem to act like Edmonton is unique in playing its best weapons together.
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