Value of: Leon Draisaitl to your team

[joe dirte]

You have a funny definition of ugly and are doing a fine Trump channel of calling anything that flies contrary to what you believe fake news.

You really think it's suitable to compare what Draisaitl did without McDavid and not at least consider on another team he'd have actual top line wingers to play with as opposed to Lucic and the like? He wouldn't go from McDavid to *nobody*. He'd go from McDavid to other top players, because he is a top player, and on most other teams he'd have much better options to play with.

That was stated, several times actually.

He probably wouldn't get "top wingers", if he were on a very good team. I cant think of many playoff teams that would have him as their first line centre, if any. Some have 2 better centres in fact.

In these cases he would be the winger you speak of. Maybe first line winger maybe second.

Again, the premise of the post that was first reapinded to stated remove the mcdavid effect, then add in better wingers.

To which i responded, you have about 40 points (45 as you now point out), then add 15 or 20 for better wingers. Maybe you should go back and read it. Bumping someones production by near 50 percent because of better wingers is very generous.

 

[joe dirte]

Why would we assume his powerplay points would drop so much? It's not like the Oilers were a top 5 power play team. Are we assuming that he's going to a bottom 5 team? That he isn't going to be one of the best players on the power play? This is disingenuous and just trying to push your narrative.

I gave him average production for first line PP forwards. Quite generous given what he produces without mcdavid.

As ive said we dont really know, because we dont have a good sample of how bad he is on the PP without mcdavid, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

That was stated, several times actually.

He probably would get "top wingers", if he were on a very good team. I cant think of many playoff teams that would have him as their first line centre, if any. Some have 2 better centres in fact.

In these cases he would be the winger you speak of. Maybe first line winger maybe second.

Again, the premise of the post that was first reapinded to stated remove the mcdavid effect, then add in better wingers.

To which i responded, you have about 40 points (45 as you now point out), then add 15 or 20 for better wingers. Maybe you should go back and read it. Bumping someones production by near 50 percent because of better wingers is very generous.

You're sewer snorkeling without a mask, buddy, and now continuing to move the goal posts.

Draisaitl, as proven above, is an 80 point player even if you gave him absolute scrubs at 5 on 5. He'd be a powerplay fixture everywhere he went, no reason to think those numbers would drop. He's elite 3 on 3. You're reaching really, really hard.

In terms of playoff teams he'd be the 1C on: Carolina (one of him or Aho would shift), Columbus, NYI, possibly Washington, Nashville, Calgary, Vegas, San Jose, debatably Dallas. That's about half of them.

 

[joe dirte]

You're sewer snorkeling without a mask, buddy, and now continuing to move the goal posts.

Draisaitl, as proven above, is an 80 point player even if you gave him absolute scrubs at 5 on 5. He'd be a powerplay fixture everywhere he went, no reason to think those numbers would drop. He's elite 3 on 3. You're reaching really, really hard.

In terms of playoff teams he'd be the 1C on: Carolina (one of him or Aho would shift), Columbus, NYI, possibly Washington, Nashville, Calgary, Vegas, San Jose, debatably Dallas. That's about half of them.

I'm not sure what goalposts you think I've changed. Can you be more specific?

You can say he's an 80 point player anywhere, all the evidence disagrees. you continuously try to skew the numbers by including all his McDavid stapled production anywhere/everywhere you can.

If you really think he's an 80 point player anywhere, with absolute scrubs, then why do Oiler fans whine and complain every time someone references his production without McDavid, which is bottom of the barrel production???? I can't count the number of times I've seen Oiler fans kick and scream "but look who he's playing with, of course he has such horrible production". And now you're telling me his production would be great with scrubs. But, except, it isn't. It's brutal. Worse than some of the scrubs he plays with. You're contradicting yourself and every other Oiler fan posting here.

 

[OiledGun]

I gave him average production for first line PP forwards. Quite generous given what he produces without mcdavid.

As ive said we dont really know, because we dont have a good sample of how bad he is on the PP without mcdavid, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Where did you get this "generous" average? Last year 17 points would have put him tied for 76th place for power play points. I'd say he's a lot closer to the top thirty than that. You're just making up numbers to try and push him down. It's okay, you don't like Draisaitl, you don't have to fabricate things or try and say you're being generous to push your narrative, just be honest, you don't like him and no matter how much you're shown that what you're saying is wrong you won't agree with it.

 

[OiledGun]

I'm not sure what goalposts you think I've changed. Can you be more specific?

You can say he's an 80 point player anywhere, all the evidence disagrees. you continuously try to skew the numbers by including all his McDavid stapled production anywhere/everywhere you can.

If you really think he's an 80 point player anywhere, with absolute scrubs, then why do Oiler fans whine and complain every time someone references his production without McDavid, which is bottom of the barrel production???? I can't count the number of times I've seen Oiler fans kick and scream "but look who he's playing with, of course he has such horrible production". And now you're telling me his production would be great with scrubs. But, except, it isn't. It's brutal. Worse than some of the scrubs he plays with. You're contradicting yourself and every other Oiler fan posting here.

No one is saying it would be amazing with scrubs, we are saying if the Oilers management hadn't been incompetent he would have NHL quality wingers to play with, and if he went to another team he would be playing with..... you got it, NHL quality wingers and his points would reflect that, it isn't hard to figure out.

 

[joe dirte]

Where did you get this "generous" average? Last year 17 points would have put him tied for 76th place for power play points. I'd say he's a lot closer to the top thirty than that. You're just making up numbers to try and push him down. It's okay, you don't like Draisaitl, you don't have to fabricate things or try and say you're being generous to push your narrative, just be honest, you don't like him and no matter how much you're shown that what you're saying is wrong you won't agree with it.

17 points is 60th among forwards. Assuming 90 first line PP players, that's pretty average.

His decline in production from with McDavid, to without, is more than 50%. You're suggesting his PP production drops from 29 to 25? what's that, soemthing like 15%?

No. It's laughable to suggest that. i think we all know it would drop pretty significantly further than that.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I'm not sure what goalposts you think I've changed. Can you be more specific?

You can say he's an 80 point player anywhere, all the evidence disagrees. you continuously try to skew the numbers by including all his McDavid stapled production anywhere/everywhere you can.

If you really think he's an 80 point player anywhere, with absolute scrubs, then why do Oiler fans whine and complain every time someone references his production without McDavid, which is bottom of the barrel production???? I can't count the number of times I've seen Oiler fans kick and scream "but look who he's playing with, of course he has such horrible production". And now you're telling me his production would be great with scrubs. But, except, it isn't. It's brutal. Worse than some of the scrubs he plays with. You're contradicting yourself and every other Oiler fan posting here.

Its not bottom of the barrel production. I've proved that to you. 34 point pace at 5 on 5 with the likes of Chiasson/Lucic/Puljujarvi is perfectly acceptable, as long as you're taking advantage of your opportunities with more skilled players and on the man advantage, which Draisaitl has done.

You're just angry you're wrong, and you're getting embarrassed. Bolding word walls won't change that.

McDavid and Draisaitl play on the same powerplay unit. This is because they're both tremendously skilled and very good on the powerplay. They play together at 3 on 3 because they're really, really good at it and can overwhelm opponents. They don't get separated in those situations, because every team in the league plays their best players together in those situations. If it wasn't McDavid, it would be someone else really, really good. It might even be on a team with a legitimate point shot threat!

Let's take the Leafs for example. Marner had 21 powerplay points. With John Tavares on the ice during a powerplay, Marner had...21 powerplay points.

You mean to tell me that bum didn't score a single powerplay point without Tavares ALL YEAR LONG??! Why didn't the Leafs separate them if Marner is that good?! Rabble rabble rabble etc.

 

[joe dirte]

No one is saying it would be amazing with scrubs, we are saying if the Oilers management hadn't been incompetent he would have NHL quality wingers to play with, and if he went to another team he would be playing with..... you got it, NHL quality wingers and his points would reflect that, it isn't hard to figure out.

Your fellow Oiler poster literally just claimed that.

 

[joe dirte]

Its not bottom of the barrel production. I've proved that to you. 34 point pace at 5 on 5 with the likes of Chiasson/Lucic/Puljujarvi is perfectly acceptable, as long as you're taking advantage of your opportunities with more skilled players and on the man advantage, which Draisaitl has done.

You're just angry you're wrong, and you're getting embarrassed. Bolding word walls won't change that.

McDavid and Draisaitl play on the same powerplay unit. This is because they're both tremendously skilled and very good on the powerplay. They play together at 3 on 3 because they're really, really good at it and can overwhelm opponents. They don't get separated in those situations, because every team in the league plays their best players together in those situations. If it wasn't McDavid, it would be someone else really, really good. It might even be on a team with a legitimate point shot threat!

Let's take the Leafs for example. Marner had 21 powerplay points. With John Tavares on the ice during a powerplay, Marner had...21 powerplay points.

You mean to tell me that bum didn't score a single powerplay point without Tavares ALL YEAR LONG??! Why didn't the Leafs separate them if Marner is that good?! Rabble rabble rabble etc.

yeah, I'm totally wrong, that Draisaitl's production without McDavid is bad. You've proven that, by referencing his production with McDavid.

Makes total sense.

 

[OiledGun]

17 points is 60th among forwards. Assuming 90 first line PP players, that's pretty average.

His decline in production from with McDavid, to without, is more than 50%. You're suggesting his PP production drops from 29 to 25? what's that, soemthing like 15%?

No. It's laughable to suggest that. i think we all know it would drop pretty significantly further than that.

So 60th is average for first line forwards? Seems like a weird number to pick. And I'd suggest his power play points wouldn't drop at all, but you seem intent on him having a handicap at any point for playing with McDavid then sure. 25 points. You keep removing McDavid and making it seem like McDavid would be replaced with someone that can't score at all, there are going to be other offensive threats on a team. It's "laughable" to suggest otherwise.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

17 points is 60th among forwards. Assuming 90 first line PP players, that's pretty average.

His decline in production from with McDavid, to without, is more than 50%. You're suggesting his PP production drops from 29 to 25? what's that, soemthing like 15%?

No. It's laughable to suggest that. i think we all know it would drop pretty significantly further than that.

Last season:

At 5 on 5 with Draisaitl, McDavid produced 47 points in 805 minutes, or .0584 points per minute, or a rate of 80 5 on 5 points over 1362 minutes.
At 5 on 5 without Draisaitl, McDavid produced 17 points in 557 minutes, .0305 points per minute, or a rate of 42 5 on 5 points over 1362 minutes.

If Draisaitl sucks as much as you claim, I'm sure you have a valid reason that McDavid's production nearly goddamn DOUBLES when he's playing with Leon?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

yeah, I'm totally wrong, that Draisaitl's production without McDavid is bad. You've proven that, by referencing his production with McDavid.

Makes total sense.

It's a powerplay UNIT my guy, you can't just pretend McDavid doesn't exist, because there's virtually zero reference point. Good, smart teams play their best players together on the powerplay literally all the time. It's how you score goals.

 

[HFBS]

You can have Shattenkirk.

OK, I'll throw in Smith too.

 

[joe dirte]

It's a powerplay UNIT my guy, you can't just pretend McDavid doesn't exist, because there's virtually zero reference point. Good, smart teams play their best players together on the powerplay literally all the time. It's how you score goals.

Yes, I've said there wasn't enough of a sample size to say how he would perform without McDavid, on another team. I think we all know he would drop, we just don't know how much.

there could be lots of factors. On a better team, maybe his PP TOI drops. Who knows how much he would score on 2nd line PP. Could it drop to 8 or 10 points? Certainly possible.

 

[OiledGun]

Yes, I've said there wasn't enough of a sample size to say how he would perform without McDavid, on another team. I think we all know he would drop, we just don't know how much.

there could be lots of factors. On a better team, maybe his PP TOI drops. Who knows how much he would score on 2nd line PP. Could it drop to 8 or 10 points? Certainly possible.

Why would he be on a second unit power play?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Yes, I've said there wasn't enough of a sample size to say how he would perform without McDavid, on another team. I think we all know he would drop, we just don't know how much.

there could be lots of factors. On a better team, maybe his PP TOI drops. Who knows how much he would score on 2nd line PP. Could it drop to 8 or 10 points? Certainly possible.

...you think a better team would play a 50 goal scorer on the powerplay... less? Or on the 2nd unit?

Truly it is incredible to watch the lengths you'll go to.

 

[ElPrimeTime]

I can't understand why Draisaitl is the only player in the league that gets devalued because of who he plays with. If you look at last years top 10, every player had a linemate that came close to a point per game. But Drai is the only one that benefits from playing with a good player, no one else does.

 

[joe dirte]

Why would he be on a second unit power play?

It's certainly possible. That would depend on the team. I can see quite a few teams that it's quite likely. But who knows, as I say, there are piles of different factors to consider:

- some teams like to spread out their talent, some like to pile it on the first line. that could work either way for him. If a top team likes to play one very strong line first, yeah, his PP TOI might suffer.
- other teams have more talent than the Oilers, and hence, draw more penalties. McDavid and Draisaitl played a huge % of the Oilers PP time. but the Oilers didn't get much PP time. Other teams have more PP Toi to spread around.
- perhaps there are good teams with weak offense, maybe he does get more PP time.

Iv'e said many times, we don't know for sure. We really don't have much to go on, other than his ES or 5v5 time. (and yes, as your oiler poster comrade has said, ES is better than 5v5, I just used what came up). The other on ice situations, we just don't have enough of a sample size to go on. He had something like 20 minutes in PP time last season without McDavid if I recall (feel free to look it up, I just don't care right now). I took a quick look, and did the mental math, and it was a much lower production rate, but as I say, too small for it to be meaningful.

 

[OiledGun]

It's certainly possible. That would depend on the team. I can see quite a few teams that it's quite likely. But who knows, as I say, there are piles of different factors to consider:

- some teams like to spread out their talent, some like to pile it on the first line. that could work either way for him. If a top team likes to play one very strong line first, yeah, his PP TOI might suffer.
- other teams have more talent than the Oilers, and hence, draw more penalties. McDavid and Draisaitl played a huge % of the Oilers PP time. but the Oilers didn't get much PP time. Other teams have more PP Toi to spread around.
- perhaps there are good teams with weak offense, maybe he does get more PP time.

Iv'e said many times, we don't know for sure. We really don't have much to go on, other than his ES or 5v5 time. (and yes, as your oiler poster comrade has said, ES is better than 5v5, I just used what came up). The other on ice situations, we just don't have enough of a sample size to go on. He had something like 20 minutes in PP time last season without McDavid if I recall (feel free to look it up, I just don't care right now). I took a quick look, and did the mental math, and it was a much lower production rate, but as I say, too small for it to be meaningful.

So, if a team had more power plays Leon would get less time? What. And I’m sure that a team would put their top offensive threats on the top pp. they don’t put better offensive players on the second unit. Guess what? Leon was a top power play performer, he would be on the first unit. Your arguments get worse and worse the farther down we go.

 

[joe dirte]

So, if a team had more power plays Leon would get less time? What. And I’m sure that a team would put their top offensive threats on the top pp. they don’t put better offensive players on the second unit. Guess what? Leon was a top power play performer, he would be on the first unit. Your arguments get worse and worse the farther down we go.

No. I stated that as something that might help him.

As i said, too many factors to consider. Maybe he gets lots of time on a first line PP and still gets 25 points. Unlikely but possible.

Hes not a top performer though. Not without mcdavid. Maybe he struggles and gets 8 or 10.

 

[OiledGun]

No. I stated that as something that might help him.

As i said, too many factors to consider. Maybe he gets lots of time on a first line PP and still gets 25 points. Unlikely but possible.

Hes not a top performer though. Not without mcdavid. Maybe he struggles and gets 8 or 10.

He is. He would be with other offensive threats. You can’t state that as fact. Marner is not a top offensive threat without Tavares and Matthews. He would only get 9 points on the power play.

Actually, he’s got Morgan Reilly too so better drop it to 5

 

[OiledGun]

He did this exact same thing last summer (using the wrong numbers) to criticize Draisaitl. When I corrected him it added 15-20 points to Draisaitl's total. He's either a troll or the dumbest poster on this site.

Why not both?

 

[OiledGun]

I can’t believe he rounded 500.8 minutes up to 600. That’s the most ridiculous thing he’s done. Or somehow remove half of Leon’s pp points.

 

[Dan Kelly]

This is one of those cases where you could justifiably say....Leon for one of your team’s better players, a top prospect, +++++....